AA toxic culture

[HA25]

Just expressing my opinion, that's still allowed isn't it?!?!

you are always entitled to your own set of opinions, just not your own set of facts..

 

[Flopgut]

Rational solutions will not prevail. Execs will prevail, and subsequently bail with billions.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for capitalism and the free market; however, we don't work in anything resembling a free market. Have you read the RLA? None of the other trade groups you mentioned have the constraints that have been forced upon us. The current system, designed by corporate executives, is failing this profession and needs fixing. You're a professional aviator, and you deserve to be compensated for the valuable skill that you posses, and you should not be artificially fused to a company that falters due to poor management and corporate raiders. The executives have created a system that greatly benefits them, and there is nothing wrong with us as a profession demanding the same securities and benefits.

Great post! Here is the fix: The RLA has a benefits side that aviation is excluded from. www.rrb.gov Among other things, RRB has a re-hiring scheme that functions in place of a NSL. If you are furloughed, you have right of first refusal to a job at another airline that is hiring. You don't come in with seniority, but you do come in with whatever rate that contract pays for your full longevity. All RLA covered companies would be required to participate. Additionally, if you are in RRB you are not paying SS. You are working to fund a 2 tier SS like retirement fund. 30 years of service and at least 60 years of age, you can retire with full benefits...

 

[instructordude]

If you take the time to read the full proposed legislation, you will see that someone is already trying to make this pay scale happen. It's worth your time to read the text.


4-7 of 8

operationorange.org
2. Minimum hourly rates of pay for payable hours in section 4.F shall be:

a. $300.00 per hour for widebody aircraft PIC/Captain,
b. $225.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft PIC/Captain,
c. $200.00 per hour for widebody aircraft SIC/First Officer,
Fair Treatment of Experienced Pilots Act - Part 2
d. $150.00 per hour for narrowbody aircraft SIC/First Officer.

This kind of pay is extremely unrealistic and damaging. Remember what the pilots at United did and what happen in the end??

 

[G4dude]

This kind of pay is extremely unrealistic and damaging. Remember what the pilots at United did and what happen in the end??

It is so obvious, I don't understand why union types don't get it. if you render your employer uncompetitive, it won't be able to compete in the marketplace. United is the perfect example, Delta too. Airtran exists only because of the Delta pilot contract of the late 90s.

 

[G4dude]

Rescaling the longevity-based system front-loads a pilot's income.

A company that becomes much more profitable can hire away experienced talent by offering those experienced pilots a living wage.

The best part about this method is that it rewards pilots evenly according to the productivity of a unit of pilot labor.

An FO on a 737 earning 119/hr is not more productive than an FO on the same aircraft earning 74/hr.

True, a probationary pilot may be less productive than a fully qualified pilot, and therefore a probationary scale for the first year or two is something that most pilots could endure. (You do have some savings, right?)

Rescaling the longevity pay gives the high-time guys portability. It gives the new guys a living wage.

A good airline could steal talented pilots away from a bad airline.

Nowhere is it written in stone that unionization, seniority, and longevity pay must ALWAYS be deployed in the ways we used them in the past.


The BIGGEST benefit is that it works against management gutting of contracts by scaring those with lots of longevity. It allows pilot groups to call management's bluff.

"Screw with me, I will quit. I will take 20% cut to switch carriers." No longer do you have to drop from over $100k to $35k.

This method also means that when an airline folds, you can hire the qualified pilots at a wage that does not insult their professional status, instead of hiring low-timers who are willing to work for peanuts.

This allows talented pilots who have paid their dues to remain in their chosen profession.

I agree! This is original thinking, which is rare in this world.

 

[HA25]

It is so obvious, I don't understand why union types don't get it. if you render your employer uncompetitive, it won't be able to compete in the marketplace. United is the perfect example, Delta too. Airtran exists only because of the Delta pilot contract of the late 90s.

you're wrong..

first off, if EVERYONE payed that scale, then how is anyone going to be at any competitive disadvantage?

2nd off, Airtran is in existence because DAL didn't want to be hit with anti-trust action for ATL.... they already had 90% of traffic with Airtran during certain peak travel, they didn't need 99%

 

[HalinTexas]

Great post! Here is the fix: The RLA has a benefits side that aviation is excluded from. www.rrb.gov Among other things, RRB has a re-hiring scheme that functions in place of a NSL. If you are furloughed, you have right of first refusal to a job at another airline that is hiring. You don't come in with seniority, but you do come in with whatever rate that contract pays for your full longevity. All RLA covered companies would be required to participate. Additionally, if you are in RRB you are not paying SS. You are working to fund a 2 tier SS like retirement fund. 30 years of service and at least 60 years of age, you can retire with full benefits...

Interesting, but not quite correct:

Financing

Payroll taxes paid by railroad employers and their employees are the primary source of funding for the railroad retirement-survivor benefit programs. Railroad retirement taxes, which have historically been higher than social security taxes, are calculated, like benefit payments, on a two-tier basis. Railroad retirement tier I payroll taxes are coordinated with social security taxes so that employees and employers pay tier I taxes at the same rate as social security taxes. In addition, both employees and employers pay tier II taxes which are used to finance railroad retirement benefit payments over and above social security levels. These tier II taxes are based on the ratio of certain asset balances to the sum of benefit payments and administrative expenses.

Revenues in excess of benefit payments are invested to provide additional trust fund income. The National Railroad Retirement Investment Trust manages and invests railroad retirement assets. Railroad retirement funds are invested in non-governmental assets, as well as in governmental securities.

Additional trust fund income is derived from the financial interchange with the social security trust funds, revenues from Federal income taxes on railroad retirement benefits, and appropriations from general treasury revenues provided after 1974 as part of a phase-out of certain vested dual benefits.

It just substitutes a Tier I and II tax for SS taxes. This is also covers unemployment benefits under RRB. These Tier II taxes can be raised if there is a shortfall. It appears that Congressional action is not required to do so, like SS taxes. It also appears that the RRB is allowed to invest more readily in "non-governmental" securities. Could this be Wall Street?

Interesting system. First I've heard of it. It's not an investment system and appears to limit benefits payments, much like SS, so you could be paying to much for this retirement fund. You're definitely beholden to it with little or no choice in the matter. I'm going to read further.

 

[Flopgut]

Interesting, but not quite correct:



It just substitutes a Tier I and II tax for SS taxes. This is also covers unemployment benefits under RRB. These Tier II taxes can be raised if there is a shortfall. It appears that Congressional action is not required to do so, like SS taxes. It also appears that the RRB is allowed to invest more readily in "non-governmental" securities. Could this be Wall Street?

Interesting system. First I've heard of it. It's not an investment system and appears to limit benefits payments, much like SS, so you could be paying to much for this retirement fund. You're definitely beholden to it with little or no choice in the matter. I'm going to read further.

Thank God somebody finally went to that link!! Keep looking at it please. It's not super sexy, but it sure as hell has teeth. Could be a game changer. Please keep up the feedback.

 

[sbav8r]

This kind of pay is extremely unrealistic and damaging. Remember what the pilots at United did and what happen in the end??

1. As previously stated all airlines would pay the minimum. It's not about stealing from the wealthy or fortunate to feed the poor, this is to do away with a system that fusses you to an airline for life. No pilot would bump another pilot out of his seat at a new airline; however, if American pilots wanted to jump ship they could, and still make a decent living at the new airline. This changes the game at the negotiating table. As it is, we stand to lose everything if we dare to leave a company. Besides, as others have pointed out, why does it make any sense at all to make more money at the end of our career? We lose the benefits of compund interest, and our retirement suffers.

2. Unrealistic? I'm worth at least 150/ hr, and so are you. You have no idea how much your skills would be worth in an unrestricted free market, or a true capitalist system without the constraints of the RLA. The entire free world has huge demand for the skills, training, and judgment that you've developed and accumulated over years of flying. Why is a lawyer, physician, or executive worth more than you? You have a graduate degree, it's called an ATP, and unlike a CEO it wasn't obtained from 2 years of texts and lectures. It was obtained from years of flying cargo in the trenches, fighters over hostile territory, shooting approaches down to mins etc... You're every bit as worthy as any of those groups. Have you noticed how much the medical community is learning from our profession? Google medicine and CRM. Read the "Checklist Manifesto." They learn from our profession because we are outstanding at learning from our mistakes and failures and adapting. The result is an amazingly safe and efficient air transportation system. You are part of that. You deserve what your skills, knowledge, and training are truly worth, and you owe it to every aviator that came before you to uphold that standard.

Again, please read through it, or at the very least go to the full legislation tab and read the summary Appendix A.

http://www.operationorange.org/

 

[Freight Dog]

Either there will be a new crop of pilots who will overthrow this insane seniority system and seniority-based pay; or there will have to be a total collapse of the US airline industry.

Any other way, and US pilots will continue to be some of the world's worst-paid pilots.

 

[HalinTexas]

Thank God somebody finally went to that link!! Keep looking at it please. It's not super sexy, but it sure as hell has teeth. Could be a game changer. Please keep up the feedback.

Can't say that i'm all that excited about it or that it's something I'm interested in for my life. Possibly could be used for reforming SS altogether, but I'd like to have the option to go it alone. The biggest problem with SS is that it only invest in very secure, and low yield, securities, and relies on growth in the labor force in numbers and/or income. Neither is happening much right now, but it's not as bad as Europe. China will have it's reckoning in the not too distant future.

 

[Flopgut]

Can't say that i'm all that excited about it or that it's something I'm interested in for my life. Possibly could be used for reforming SS altogether, but I'd like to have the option to go it alone. The biggest problem with SS is that it only invest in very secure, and low yield, securities, and relies on growth in the labor force in numbers and/or income. Neither is happening much right now, but it's not as bad as Europe. China will have it's reckoning in the not too distant future.

Ok, that's kind of all over the place.

I'd like to "go it alone" as well. Fun to talk about, but meanwhile the govt is using our broken relationship with the RLA to turn us into the maritine industry. This is real; it already exists and we have a very real right to assert the position that we be included.

Bear in mind, this has not effect on a 401k, an A or B plan, or any other savings vehicle.

 

[HalinTexas]

I don't understand how it's "all over the place."

If hadn't started raiding my retirement last year, and little more lately, I'd be back where I was in '08, and I haven't contributed a dime since then. My point is that I don't know if I want to be included. I'd rather have the choice of where to invest MY money.

I don't believe the airline industry should be covered or restricted by the RLA. It's a non-sequitor. It was designed to protect the overall economy from labor strife, and I don't think we have to worry about that from the airlines. Probably not the railroads either, since we have better road to drive on since then.

The other vehicles you mention would most likely cease to exist as the increase in taxes and the lack of company matching would make them less attractive to the worker. The average worker now believes that SS will take care of them, and this is a slicked up version of SS.

 

[Flopgut]

I don't understand how it's "all over the place."

If hadn't started raiding my retirement last year, and little more lately, I'd be back where I was in '08, and I haven't contributed a dime since then. My point is that I don't know if I want to be included. I'd rather have the choice of where to invest MY money.

I don't believe the airline industry should be covered or restricted by the RLA. It's a non-sequitor. It was designed to protect the overall economy from labor strife, and I don't think we have to worry about that from the airlines. Probably not the railroads either, since we have better road to drive on since then.

The other vehicles you mention would most likely cease to exist as the increase in taxes and the lack of company matching would make them less attractive to the worker. The average worker now believes that SS will take care of them, and this is a slicked up version of SS.

You push people on here for answers, but you are having trouble understanding them when you read them.

Of course we should not be covered by the RLA. But we damn sure are!! It's killing the profession. The nearest answer we have to fix this is to leverage the arguement that we either get RRB, or this industry be removed from the RLA.

I couldn't understand from your post if you are retired or not. So I don't know if you are paying or collecting SS. Yeah, it would be great to decide where to put our own money. But that's much further from reality than pressing for a proper realtionship with the RLA. The RRB is a real thing. It predates SS [around a very long time]. Your assumption that 401k and other retirement vehicles cease to exist is not realistic. At all. That is very much not the case with actual railworkers who have had this thing for generations. Talk to a rail labor leader and they will not believe what we put up with care of the RLA. The RLA is meant to be a burden that includes certain benefits. Unfortunately, the airline business is completely excluded from the benefits.

 

[HA25]

I don't understand how it's "all over the place."

If hadn't started raiding my retirement last year, and little more lately, I'd be back where I was in '08, and I haven't contributed a dime since then. My point is that I don't know if I want to be included. I'd rather have the choice of where to invest MY money.

I don't believe the airline industry should be covered or restricted by the RLA. It's a non-sequitor. It was designed to protect the overall economy from labor strife, and I don't think we have to worry about that from the airlines. Probably not the railroads either, since we have better road to drive on since then.

The other vehicles you mention would most likely cease to exist as the increase in taxes and the lack of company matching would make them less attractive to the worker. The average worker now believes that SS will take care of them, and this is a slicked up version of SS.

something tells me you like to ask the questions, but you don't like to hear the answers..... peace man.