AA to Lay Off 2,500 Pilots...... Ouch!!!

[beytzim]

Enigma: very informative post. Good Job.

To V70T5, you stated that the industry is becoming an oligopoly. You couldn't further from the truth. The industry WAS an oligopoly. But no more. That ended in the mid 90's or so when SWA and other LLC's were crushing the majors. Prior to that occurance, all the majors colluded (informally, of course) on price structure, routing, seats etc. - i.e. the definition of an oligopoly.

Since the mid-90's the airlines have been trying to be 'original' by adding LLC to their own fleets, lowering prices, and increasing passenger roominess (AA). That is pure capitalistic competition, and the last battle of 'the end of deregulation'. The war is almost over. To the winner belong the spoils my friend.

Welcome to America!

 

[HA25]

To all who argue with V7,

Notice the "I's" in his sentences. He has never cared about anything but himself and sadly probably never will. He is obviously very proud of his flying accomplishments (as he should be) but he cannot control his lack of humility. So, to those who would argue with him I suggest you go kiss your kids, buy them some ice cream and enjoy life. V7 is an unhappy soul and probably only enjoys certain moments in life rather than life itself.

Corndog.

it's amazing to me that someone who seems to sound like a nice guy, can make a judgment that profound about someone whom he's never spoken to just because the majority of the people on this thread have teamed up on me. how do you know I don't care about anyone? And who exactly do you care about?

This board is mainly visited by people who are going to be very unfriendly to my arguments, since the other "major" airlines aren't going to be doing any "interviewing" anytime soon....

Trust me, this wouldn't be such a gang bang were there to be more American, Delta, and others reading this forum... I guess, I should do the same myself as I seem to be pissing in the wind with you and the other lot.

 

[enigma]

Re: Re: Re: Re: You ever notice?

Just because economic theory dictates that profit will go to zero in true competition, that doesn't mean we should allow it to. Because since you're an economics expert, you should also know that this industry is heading towards first, oligopoly, then monopoly.... again if we don't do anything about it.

..

How do you propose to not allow profit to go to zero?

The next comment makes you look a little snippy, but I guess I deserve it for asking if you only read the cliff notes.

I am a long way from an economics expert, just a general studies guy from ERAU CDL; but I can observe the obvious. It is obvious that SWA has a different market than AA, DAL, NWA, USA, UAL, CAL. Those carriers are all global, SWA is not. Cactus is the only major that I can think of that competes directly with SWA for the entirety of its business. I contend that the problems experienced by AA (which is what I understand the discussion to be) are related not to SWA pay, but to fallen revenue in AA's market. AA and all the old style mainline carriers built their business to provide seamless, global travel; and when that market fell apart, so did those carriers.

If memory serves, AA and the others were making money before 2001; and SWA existed then just as it does now. If SWA 's pilot wages are indeed a problem, AA would have had as large a problem in 2000 as it does in 2003. AA didn't, therefore I conclude that SWA pilot pay is not your problem.

If you really want someone/something to blame, I suggest that you point to: AA management who took over TWA, UsamaBinLaden, the internet, dotcom bombs, etc.

On a personal note, I spent countless hours attempting to convince my fellow pilots to respect our profession. I typed so many anti PFT posts that I used up a keyboard. So I understand your attempt to convince others to demand more. I just don't understand why you would have singled out SWA.

regards,
8N

 

[Cardinal]

He has never cared about anything but himself and sadly probably never will.

I have nothing but respect for age and those who have gone before me in this amazing industry, and flown those millions of safe and unheralded miles.

But that particualr line irks me. LOL. It appears that V70T5 cares in fact about the earning potential of every pilot in the industry. He doesn't want them fired, bankrupt or furloughed, he merely wishes for a bit of unity to benefit all parties. But should his concern be only of himself and his family's wealth, well, again, more power to him. That is his ordained responsibility.

Everybody on this board needs to find and read a copy of the 1956 classic "Atlas Shrugged", by Ayn Rand. Then talk about feeling and caring. It's the only economics textbook that you'll never be able to put down.

V70 settled for below optimum wages for a period of less than a decade, with the intention of earning a premium wage in the near future and for the rest of his career, perhaps another 30 years. Ty Webb took premium wages in the early stage of his career for a similarly short period of time, and is now proud to make bottom-half of the industry wages for the rest of his career, perhaps another 30 years. Who has the largest negative impact? In fact the low entry level wages can be argued to have a net upward effect on wages throughout the industry, simply by posing as a barrier to entry and thus reducing the supply of pilots. It almost kept Ty out of the business, which would have reduced the number of pilots currently clawing for a job. It also keeps those earning 40k/yr at a sketchy 135 outfit comfortable and thus many will not fight tooth and nail for, and will not cross a picket line for, that airline job. That isn't esoteric justification. I've seen it personally countless times.

Another poster berates the frequency with which V70 posts. Being a furloughed AA pilot, the very subject of this thread, certainly entitles the man to an opinion does it not?

Ponder the impact of the signature line on the above post:

Those who would trade freedom for security, deserve neither.
Ben Franklin

The freedom to earn more, versus the security of mediocrity?

What is the net impact of these and other ill-advised rebuttals? The International Brotherhood of Koolaid Drinkers (The SWA poolies, et al), say "Ra, ra, SWA is great." V70 offers well reasoned motivation and methodology to improve pilot compensation and is spit upon. Who holds the higher ground? I could pontificate about the Jews acceptance of Roman domination, but I fear that in this twisted modern world that would actually weaken my argument, so I'll stop right here.

V70T5, how about selecting an automobile NOT made in a socialist country, eh? They're are lots of nice Toyotas produced in relative economic freedom. Keep up the good work.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,
I am 4th yr Capt on the ATR @59.80. I was under the impression first yr F/O there was around 35.00 hr. Is that in the ballpark? Was thinking of applying but hesitant due to the difference.
thanks PM if you'd rather.

Rates just went up this month, and my contract is at home, but I think first year FO went up to $39.50/hr second yr FO $54. and third year Capt $101. Top pay scale at year 12 is around $156./hr

Lines average 84.5 hrs and per diem is $1.75 uprade running about 2.5 years. New aircraft to be announced in June. 800 pilots, counting the 40 in training right now. I owuld guess we'll probably hire another 80-90 this year, but that's just my guess, I don;t know what the company is projecting.

 

[FL717]

V70 settled for below optimum wages for a period of less than a decade, with the intention of earning a premium wage in the near future and for the rest of his career, perhaps another 30 years. Ty Webb took premium wages in the early stage of his career for a similarly short period of time, and is now proud to make bottom-half of the industry wages for the rest of his career, perhaps another 30 years. Who has the largest negative impact? In fact the low entry level wages can be argued to have a net upward effect on wages throughout the industry, simply by posing as a barrier to entry and thus reducing the supply of pilots.

The International Brotherhood of Koolaid Drinkers (The SWA poolies, et al), say "Ra, ra, SWA is great." V70 offers well reasoned motivation and methodology to improve pilot compensation and is spit upon. Who holds the higher ground? I could pontificate about the Jews acceptance of Roman domination, but I fear that in this twisted modern world that would actually weaken my argument, so I'll stop right here.

Wow!! Except for your defense of V70 making many posts on this topic... (which I'm glad he does because he has alot to contribute)... your post is ridiculous on so many levels. Where to begin... first.. you actually believe anybody is happy to be a the bottom of payscales? Of course not. AirTran by the way IS NOT at the bottom, regardless of what you "think", and your "thinking" is incorrect. Our contract is equal to and in some cases better than our peer group (MidEx, Sprirt, Frontier, etc). As far as to what some of us will earn over a 30 year career at AirTran, how in the world could you possibly know. We might not even be around.. then again if we continue to make a modest wage and allow our company to stay in business, never furlough, and provide a good lifestyle and security to us and our families, then sign me up. And I'll let all the bitter naysayers sit at home furloughed with their twisted logic that "we" are whats wrong. No.. YOU are whats wrong. If you can't see that then please keep that line of thinking and career path going and it will continue to help me and many like me out to a long and uninterupted prosperous career. BTW $70,000 - $80,000 this year, and $100,000 - $160,000+ next year on for the length of the life of AirTran is considered prosperous for most people flying a small 117 passenger jet. if you don't like it please continue to criticize and leave the flying to us. We will also continue to keep the profession alive, while you carry on with your company economics mission for management...err... I mean martyrdom. We're doing just fine.

Most B-1900 operators are bottom end. Many regional codeshares are bottom end. SWA is not. As far as your koolaid comment.. it really sums up your true knowledge of this Mr. Kamikazi. Relative to AA, Delta, US, etc., SWA is lower in wages... BUT they are not in the same comparison catagory... period. What... just because they are a major.. get real. They have offered 5 times the overall benefits to their pilots over what any major has EVER been able to offer their pilots... and that is a FACT. (Heres the secret... theres more to life and career than just the bottom dollar....psst.... pass it along!)

Believe me the SWA pilots are laughing their ass off at you right now with your ridiculous post and "insight".

 

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by Cardinal
Everybody on this board needs to find and read a copy of the 1956 classic "Atlas Shrugged", by Ayn Rand. Then talk about feeling and caring. It's the only economics textbook that you'll never be able to put down.

Reading your post, I suspected it was written by someone whose knowledge of Economics was gleaned by a 50 year-old work of fiction.

Where do you get your Industry knowlege from? L. Ron Hubbard's "Scientology" books?

Let me recommend a book for you, my friend, it is called "Hard Landings- the History of the Airlines".

Even though your profile indicates that you have little industry experience, and you are experiencing the first furlough of the several you canexpect in your chosen career path, you want to tell me and the pilots of the LCC's what you, in your infinite wisdom, believe we should work for.

OK, Pal, we'll give you your chance:

How much SHOULD the pilots of a 117 pax airplane be making? BEcause you seem to have all the answers. But wait, let me give you the rest of the details-

I want to have a short, 1 hour on-line commute to my home in a beachfront community. I want to have the least chance of wearing the orange apron (furlough) or starting over in mid-stream. I want to upgrade quickly, so I can fly with my favorite captain every day, and the only time I want to cross the pond is when I am on vacation. Flight Attndents- please, let me not have to deal with more than three, and my penis is large enough as it is, thank you, I don;t need to be flying a "heavy" to feel that I have arrived. If it pays more, fine, but if causes a degradation in my schedule, upgrade or quality of life, I'll forgo the extra pay, I'm doing OK, thanks.

Oh, and I really enjoy working at a company where the vast majority of pilots are happy and spend relatively little time bitching- please don;t put me at anywhere where the corporate culture involves sitting around bitching about how the "Company" is screwing me.

Now, since you are the self-annointed Oracle of the Industry, why don;t you tell me where I should work, how much I should be willing to work for, Sporto?

Thanks, appreciate your efforts.

 

[HA25]

Originally posted by Cardinal
Everybody on this board needs to find and read a copy of the 1956 classic "Atlas Shrugged", by Ayn Rand. Then talk about feeling and caring. It's the only economics textbook that you'll never be able to put down.

Reading your post, I suspected it was written by someone whose knowledge of Economics was gleaned by a 50 year-old work of fiction.

Where do you get your Industry knowlege from? L. Ron Hubbard's "Scientology" books?

Let me recommend a book for you, my friend, it is called "Hard Landings- the History of the Airlines".

Even though your profile indicates that you have little industry experience, and you are experiencing the first furlough of the several you canexpect in your chosen career path, you want to tell me and the pilots of the LCC's what you, in your infinite wisdom, believe we should work for.

OK, Pal, we'll give you your chance:

How much SHOULD the pilots of a 117 pax airplane be making? BEcause you seem to have all the answers. But wait, let me give you the rest of the details-

I want to have a short, 1 hour on-line commute to my home in a beachfront community. I want to have the least chance of wearing the orange apron (furlough) or starting over in mid-stream. I want to upgrade quickly, so I can fly with my favorite captain every day, and the only time I want to cross the pond is when I am on vacation. Flight Attndents- please, let me not have to deal with more than three, and my penis is large enough as it is, thank you, I don;t need to be flying a "heavy" to feel that I have arrived. If it pays more, fine, but if causes a degradation in my schedule, upgrade or quality of life, I'll forgo the extra pay, I'm doing OK, thanks.

Oh, and I really enjoy working at a company where the vast majority of pilots are happy and spend relatively little time bitching- please don;t put me at anywhere where the corporate culture involves sitting around bitching about how the "Company" is screwing me.

Now, since you are the self-annointed Oracle of the Industry, why don;t you tell me where I should work, how much I should be willing to work for, Sporto?

Thanks, appreciate your efforts.

Ty,

People on this thread are trying to have a conversation about a critical subject, our careers, and you keep resorting to ad hominem attacks, and addressing people "pal" with a tough-guy tone that frankly rubs me as arrogant.

That, all said... I think that in your heart, you care a lot about this industry, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

AirTran is not a major player like SWA all by it's self... but when you take AirTran, Frontier, SWA, JB, ATA, Spirit, Hooters, etc... all together paying wages ranging from 90% to 30% of major airline pay-scale (a guesstimate)... that exerts economic down force on wages in the rest of the industry. It is not feasible for Delta, and American to fly from Phoenix to Dallas, or Atlanta to Detroit in a 737 or 757 that is paying it's Captain and FO a combined Salary with Pension and other productivity related benefits, that the above mentioned LCC's aren't providing. And you have to ask your self, how well has our wages as pilots kept up with the other professional occupations... not well, I assure you.

College grads with a BA in Finance can expect between $34,000 and $43,000 per year at age 23... what does a 23 year old FO on a Brasilia or ATR make??? ... about $21,000/yr.. When I came to the "commuters" they were a stepping stone, no anymore my friend... they are the growth (at the expense of mainline) and as such those wages are no longer acceptable.

I don't mean to pick on SWA specifically, but I used them as an example as they are all on their own a HUGE factor in price pressure in the industry, which while helping the consumer, is killing our once glorious profession.

If you saw the movie Catch Me If You Can, you will remember how the pilots were very highly regarded back in those days, for many reasons, not the least of which was their position in the food chain or wages...

We'll SWA, and the other LCC's combine together to erode this dramatically.

Sure, there is more to the whole downturn than pilot wages, but it is nevertheless a piece of the pie that has to be addressed by US as pilots, since we cannot effect the other factors, such as the economy and demand for international travel.

AirTran is a young company, and your pay is on the rise, and I can only hope that you continue to fight for top dollar as you shouldn't see your self as a second class pilot just because you don't fly for Delta.

Delta pay's their well, and provides a great pension, and so should AirTran...

In the specific case of AirTran, It is a known fact that AirTran has a good number of "scabs" most from Eastern flying there, and that may have hurt the pilot groups efforts to get a strong union, ALPA being more suitable IMHO than Teamsters on their property, but they are all near retirement age and then I would expect the younger captains that see themselves as career AirTran will take the helm and steer the company towards an Industry Average contract at the least... This is what Continental did, and Fedex... this is the best chance for the industry, a united union that will itself change from being a two and three tier union to a one tear union, and undercut the managers divide and conquer tactic.

But this whole Distinction between Major's and Nationals is BS... nothing more than an artificial title given by the DOT with the lobbying help of the ATA to companies that are allowed to pay less for the SAME WORK.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

VT,

I have fought this fight for years. However, my ideas don't have merit because I am just another "arrogant Delta pilot" and my "sh*t don't stink." You must be an "a-hole" as well because you would dare propose the idea that when a company's competitors enjoy a huge cost advantage on the largest expense, it just might have a negative effect. The idea is ridiculous, and you sould be ashamed of yourself for even proposing it.

 

[FL717]

V70t5:

I know that your reply was to TyWebb, but as I stated earlier, you seem to have alot to contribute and I would like to engage here. I hear (read) what you are saying and agree with some of your logic... BUT.. I have to respectfully disagree on several points. Before I get on a rant, let me add that I get rambling when people talk of LCC's "eroding the profession'. I'm sorry but that is a poor choice of words and not correct. Your reference to the great movie Catch Me if You Can is way off (IMO). People today still think airline pilots make tons of money. They have no idea. The change in perception has NOTHING to do with low cost carriers. It probably has to do with a new generation of adults that are very different than our parents and grandparents due to technology, education, and common courtesy.

There IS a vast difference between National and Major carriers.

AirTran will lose its competitive advantage if we follow the legacy carriers in total compensation packages.. period. (FlyDeltaJets is 100% correct), however...I do not believe in industry standard. I couldn't care less what your company or any other airline pays their employees. Never have. I care about what our pilots get paid.. and how our pilots are treated, and what our quality of life is. That is the key, not following some other company over a cliff. With that said, I know what underpaid is. Underpaid is $15,000 -$24,000 a year flying for an air carrier. That is not relative.. that is cold hard fact. I do not know what overpaid is. I assume its when your compant cannot survive during a business downturn without furloughs and contract concessions.

As far as the reference to some of the ex-Eastern pilots at our company. they have worked their @ss off at this company, and very few remain.. less than 5% of our 800+ pilots. We are not Teamsters, we are National Pilots Association (NPA) which is part of national CAPA, and hope we remain that way.

I appreciate your insight. Who do you work for?

FlyDeltaJets:
Its all about you...

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

V70t5:


AirTran will lose its competitive advantage if we follow the legacy carriers in total compensation packages.. period. I do not believe in industry standard. I couldn't care less what your company or any other airline pays their employees. Never have. I care about what our pilots get paid.. and how our pilots are treated, and what our quality of life is. That is the key, not following some other company over a cliff.

Thank you for making the point I have been laboring to make for ages. I agree with you completely.

My question is, what do you think would happen to your compensation package if the legacy carriers lower theirs to your level, which obviously seems to be the trend. You said above, you would lose your competitive advantage. Your only chance would be to reduce your package yet again. Then we would once again be attacked for our costs being too high. Where would it end? We are on a slippery slope right now, and very few people want to admit it. I'm glad you did admit it, and I'm glad you see my point, even if you didn't realize it before.

P.S.
I'm not sure what you were trying to imply with your last sentence, but can I assume it was meant to be insult? Why am I not surprised?

PPS
If it were, as you suggest, "all about me," why has V70 been personally insulted as well? Apparently it is a favored tactic in response to our common concerns.

 

[FL717]

FlyDeltaJets:

It was not an insult to you. I saw that you were logged on the board and thought you might see my reply and ad some insight with another post. Sorry.

I knew that you'd pick up on something that I agree with that you have been stating for some time. I do agree with the hypothetical situation that could occur, but disagree about it even being a remote possiblity therefore not a viable arguement. Many thing on this planet are possible, but that doesn't mean they happen.

Also, I did not think I insulted V70T5 at all? If I did, apologies to him also.

Just enjoying some banter on the 'board'.

 

[Cardinal]

Oracle of the Industry, I like that.

I guess I tipped over the "Citrus" cart.

First of all, my knowledge of economics does not stem solely from a work of fiction. I incorrectly assumed that a degree in Business Admin, entrepeneurial success and failure, and a lifetime of study qualified me to BS on an internet message board, but apparently not. Many individuals would pick up an economics textbook only if a gun were held on them. The novel I reffered to is merely illustrative of the principles contained within the academic tome, and more "accessible." Of course the last 50 years has in no way changed the impetus for production, but whatever.

I believe you are referring to "Hard Landing: The Epic Contest for Power and Profits That Plunged the Airlines into Chaos," by Thomas Petzinger. If so, it was a wonderful read. I would also recommend G. Hopkins' work, "The Airline Pilots, A Study in Elite Unionization," and "Flying the Line," Volumes I, and II.

AirTran by the way IS NOT at the bottom, regardless of what you "think", and your "thinking" is incorrect. Our contract is equal to and in some cases better than our peer group (MidEx, Sprirt, Frontier, etc)...........Most B-1900 operators are bottom end. Many regional codeshares are bottom end. SWA is not. As far as your koolaid comment.. it really sums up your true knowledge of this Mr. Kamikazi

I did not say that. I said "bottom-half of the industry," which includes the "peer group" you mention. In any case the comparison is not being made between FL and F9, it is between the Old Line majors and the upstarts. And yes, I can tell you a thing or two about being bottom end, as well as being happy in life and in work despite such a position. Most B1900 operators equal or exceed DALPA 2000 payrates on a per seat basis, which is more than can be said of you. One of the poolies lurking around here has a screenname of Kaptain Koolaid or something like that. It's hardly an insult, they seem to take it as a compliment. And it's Kamikaze.

Moving on. Let us remeber that it was ALPAs stated goal since the early days to "remove pilot pay from the competitive equation." As you all said, compensation is a large part of your competitive advantage. Setting aside some external factors, whoever can supply a commodity at the lowest cost will in turn see the greatest demand for their goods. Pilots supply labor, and of the course the cheapest supplier will see the highest volume, i.e., growth. Thus we get thrown into the boom and bust cycle that generates so much frictional unemployment and angst on these boards.

I want to have the least chance of wearing the orange apron (furlough) or starting over in mid-stream. I want to upgrade quickly, so I can fly with my favorite captain every day

Mr. Webb, you are in essence trading lower pay for your rapid advancement to the captains seat. Thats well and good for you now, but what about those hired below you? Its the ExecJet syndrome. "Upgrade in 6 months!" That is dependent on an unsustainable rate of growth. Once that growth slows you're a captain, congrats, but your FO bretheren get to reap the benefits of that lower and now stagnant pay. It's the same effect Crandalls B Scale offered. Quick advancement and a kick in the nuts to those who brought up the rear. In a perfect world we would all see about the same wage, and would all walk if offered anything less. That will never come to be, however it is a noble goal. Removing pay from the realm of competition does everybody a long term favor, not that there aren't short term gains made by the lowest bidder.

Since the "self-proclaimed Orace of the Industry" was asked how much the pilots of a 117 seat aircraft should make, here are some good numbers. I'll give you three guesses as to where they came from:

CA
Yr
1 202.80
2 204.32
3 205.99
4 207.63
5 209.29
6 210.95
7 212.61
8 214.26
9 215.91
10 217.58
11 219.26
12 220.88

FO
Yr
1 54.00
2 109.31
3 127.92
4 131.02
5 134.15
6 137.54
7 141.38
8 144.63
9 146.17
10 148.17
11 149.53
12 150.86

Now ask yourself if you couldn't take that money, bank the difference between that and Airtran numbers, and end up with enough cash to last through a furlough, put your kids through college, and have an independent retirement savings.

One example. New England has a very stable populace. People don't move in, people don't move out, and the region has seen almost no immigration in the last 75 years when compared with the rest of the country. Numerous acquaintances of mine, with no education beyond a HS diploma, and in some case without even that, make an amazing amount of money in commercial cleaning, in some cases their labor nets them in excess of $100 per hour. There are but two tenuous factors that sustain them. 1) The distate for cleaning found among the local WASP population, and 2) An utter lack of competition. Such money cannot be made in CA, TX, AZ, or FL. Hordes of immigrants humble enough to clean for a living have rapidly sapped the margin from that business.

We find ourselves in a similar situation. The phrase is cliche, we can either "race to the bottom" or hold the line.

My final point. Let us not fool ourselves that a perfect capitalistic model is what we are working with. Nothing could be farther from the truth. All kinds of external factors dilute the competitive environment, not the least of which is unionization itself. Were it not for that factor, we would literally and rapidly be reduced to the level of Federal minimum wage by an overwhelming tide of excess labor. Now let us all join together and "jack up the house," shall we?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FL,

I really apologize. I have been insulted quite a few times over this topic, and while I would have to be dead to care any less about that, I guess I saw insult when none was intended.

You are correct, you have been a gentleman, and I am sorry that I misinterpreted your post.

As to your assertion that the "race to the bottom" is a remote possibility. I submit that it is happening as we speak, and point to the attacks on every legacy carrier's contracts as evidence of this. I fear that this is only the start of it. It would not surprise me at all to see the lcc compensation packages being attacked next. I hope that I am wrong, but I fear I am not.

Thanks for the discussion. To be honest, I've been kind of sitting this one out, as most already know how I feel about the subject. Of course, I have a habit of jumping in even when I'm trying to stay out!

 

[FL717]

Re: Oracle of the Industry, I like that.

First of all, my knowledge of economics does not stem solely from a work of fiction. I incorrectly assumed that a degree in Business Admin, entrepeneurial success and failure, and a lifetime of study qualified me to BS on an internet message board, but apparently not.

Most B1900 operators equal or exceed DALPA 2000 payrates on a per seat basis, which is more than can be said of you.

And it's Kamikazee.

1. Since I obviously don't know you, I cannot/will not base anything on your background, only on your posted observations, and possibly current career choices.

2. I couldn't care less what the per seat payrates of any Beech 1900 carrier is. I make more money than ANY Beech 1900 Captain at any carrier at any year on their salary scale. Your argument is pure economic m@sturbation, and means nothing to the status of my career right now, as far as I'm concerned, in this life, on this planet.. period.

3. And its ENTREPRENEURIAL... since you've decided to start a spelling bee.

 

[FL717]

FL,

I really apologize. I have been insulted quite a few times over this topic, and while I would have to be dead to care any less about that, I guess I saw insult when none was intended.

Thanks for the discussion. To be honest, I've been kind of sitting this one out, as most already know how I feel about the subject. Of course, I have a habit of jumping in even when I'm trying to stay out!

I've taken shots at you a few times in the past. Sometimes when I'm being civil, I get shot at, but its because people are used to me shooting first. No problem. We've both been here long enough to know and understand.


I hear you about the "jumping in". You get real tired of the cheap and easy "arrogant Delta Pilot" quips , and I get tired of the "eroding the profession" quips, so I fully understand the inability to just let it go and stay on the sidelines.

Its still alot of fun though isn't it?!

 

[HA25]

V70t5:

I know that your reply was to TyWebb, but as I stated earlier, you seem to have alot to contribute and I would like to engage here. I hear (read) what you are saying and agree with some of your logic... BUT.. I have to respectfully disagree on several points. Before I get on a rant, let me add that I get rambling when people talk of LCC's "eroding the profession'. I'm sorry but that is a poor choice of words and not correct. Your reference to the great movie Catch Me if You Can is way off (IMO). People today still think airline pilots make tons of money. They have no idea. The change in perception has NOTHING to do with low cost carriers. It probably has to do with a new generation of adults that are very different than our parents and grandparents due to technology, education, and common courtesy.

There IS a vast difference between National and Major carriers.

AirTran will lose its competitive advantage if we follow the legacy carriers in total compensation packages.. period. (FlyDeltaJets is 100% correct), however...I do not believe in industry standard. I couldn't care less what your company or any other airline pays their employees. Never have. I care about what our pilots get paid.. and how our pilots are treated, and what our quality of life is. That is the key, not following some other company over a cliff. With that said, I know what underpaid is. Underpaid is $15,000 -$24,000 a year flying for an air carrier. That is not relative.. that is cold hard fact. I do not know what overpaid is. I assume its when your compant cannot survive during a business downturn without furloughs and contract concessions.

As far as the reference to some of the ex-Eastern pilots at our company. they have worked their @ss off at this company, and very few remain.. less than 5% of our 800+ pilots. We are not Teamsters, we are National Pilots Association (NPA) which is part of national CAPA, and hope we remain that way.

I appreciate your insight. Who do you work for?

FlyDeltaJets:
Its all about you...

Thanks for the courtesy of a engaging reply to my ideas.... I totally see your point about following them over the cliff... I guess I just wish that there was a industry wide, or mandated rate for a certain type of Jet, ....say $230/hr on a 717 with a 12-16 day work month (depending on seniority)... but sadly that is just a dream for now... maybe when we as pilots get frustrated enough to all join in a strike for our friends on the lower end of the scale.. that will change. This is idealism however, as we are all also individual beings with our own individual agendas and lives to live... no one wants to strike, or stage a walk off for another's airline. This may change one day, but not anytime soon.

I apologize if I confused your union affiliation (I seem to recall it was Teamsters, but then I've been away from ATL's Concourse C for a couple of years). However, I think that in the case of AirTran, they will remain in business as ATL is never going to be allowed (due to anti-trust issues) to be a 100% delta hub. So it would no kill AirTran to pay their pilots, even 30% more, however, maybe AirTrans executives and shareholders my have to share some of their wealth to make that happen, and we as pilots need to demand no less.

The company I work for, I cannot mention by name, but it is a large aviation services company with a fleet of Citation Encore, X, VII, DA2000, and A 737 & 757... we do various charter, and supplemental work, and tend to pay above averaged wages for our smaller aircraft, while the pay on the larger aircraft is no set, as most of the pilots are contract short term pilots. We pay by the day, and no hour, and all work a 7 and 7 schedule.. Day rates range from 240/day for junior FO's on the Encore, to $900/day for the larger jets like the 757. Saddly we are non-union, but I cannot complain since my class at American is not likely to be for many years, if at all.

I think that SWAPA is doing a good job in improving the LLC pay scale, but like I stated before, they really are not much different than American with regards to the domestic market these days, as they pretty much cover all the markets that American does domestically. They need to be treated like a traditional major, and I am pretty sure many of the SWA pilots working there feel the same way. The business model they use (common fleet, no hub spoke) will always provide them with an advantage that doesn't require their pilots to make less and work more to be realized.

Anyway.. I think I've said my peace, I hope I didn't offend too many, and like my signature says.. I just can't wait for some return to normalcy, which I think will happen. I don't this that we are in brave new world like all of the ATA funded "industry analysts" are saying, I think that's all just talk to feed the momentum to break down ALPA and APA contracts have evolved to levels that make airline managers uncomfortable with their labor costs... to which I say... too bad.. deal with it!

 

[HA25]

Thank you for making the point I have been laboring to make for ages. I agree with you completely.

My question is, what do you think would happen to your compensation package if the legacy carriers lower theirs to your level, which obviously seems to be the trend. You said above, you would lose your competitive advantage. Your only chance would be to reduce your package yet again. Then we would once again be attacked for our costs being too high. Where would it end? We are on a slippery slope right now, and very few people want to admit it. I'm glad you did admit it, and I'm glad you see my point, even if you didn't realize it before.

Bingo! Bullseye... this is what I call the downward spiral... we need to hold ground and not give up years of work..

I am sure that Delta, with AirTran work rules would do a lot of harm to AirTran, and other LCC's would also be harmed if UAL, CAL, AMR ETC.... went the LCC route. WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE CONCEPT OF LCC!


BTW.. I Like the tone this thread has taken, I am kinda glad we are not throwing insults around at each other (a thing we are all guilty of) and hope that we can treat what was said out of the heat of anger as water under the bridge.. Now lets lift together! For the profession, and to the benefit of all, even the FAR 135 Citation driver.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Re: Oracle of the Industry, I like that.

2. I couldn't care less what the per seat payrates of any Beech 1900 carrier is. I make more money than ANY Beech 1900 Captain at any carrier at any year on their salary scale. Your argument is pure economic m@sturbation, and means nothing to the status of my career right now, as far as I'm concerned, in this life, on this planet.. period.

No s#it you make more than a Beech pilot. I post 1000+ words and the only thing you attack is the irrelevance of a comparison which you first made in an earlier post? Can you at least admit this: LCC pay affects the pay at Legacy carriers.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I've taken shots at you a few times in the past. Sometimes when I'm being civil, I get shot at, but its because people are used to me shooting first. No problem. We've both been here long enough to know and understand.


I hear you about the "jumping in". You get real tired of the cheap and easy "arrogant Delta Pilot" quips , and I get tired of the "eroding the profession" quips, so I fully understand the inability to just let it go and stay on the sidelines.

Its still alot of fun though isn't it?!

Wow,

I didn't remember you taking shots at me (shows just how little I care), but since you said you did, I did a search. You weren't kidding.

Please allow me to correct myself. You have been anything but a gentleman.

However, it's truly no skin off my tail. I just like giving credit where it is due, and it was certainly not due you!

This thread was a bit more friendly. I prefer it. Although you are right, sometimes it is a lot of fun to take the gloves off. I just haven't allowed myself to get personal. Maybe one day, when I decide to give up this board for good, I will really let loose! Believe me, I could give people a real reason to call me an a-hole!

Until then, and despite the insults that people throw at me, I'll keep trying to be polite and stick to the issues. (which is not nearly as exciting!)