AA to Lay Off 2,500 Pilots...... Ouch!!!

[HA25]

Well, returning to the discussion...

Ty, I don't think what I fly now has anything to do with my opinion and whether it's valid or not.
Ok, I was wrong about the AirTran retirement, which is still not up to DAL, but nevertheless, it's a step in the right direction and better than SWA.

I flew at ASA long before AirTran came to ATL... I was there when we called you guys "Crispy Critter", and used to call a move to your airline a "lateral" move (coming from ASA)... I've seen guys come and go out of Concourse C, and I'm sure if they all had the benefit of 20/20 hind sight they would have thought different then about if they would have left AirTran for Delta. So don't try to paint me into this naive corporate pilot profile that I hardly fit.

I was hired (then "fired" while in class) by American due to 9/11, and I have flown in the 121 world before that.... I've got many friends who fly in the 121 world, and I intend to go back to it as soon as I find a good job, so I guess the way I see it, I'm qualified to have an opinion on this subject, sorry if that doesn't sit well with you.

Now, do me a favor... when the economy goes back to normal. and DAL returns to profitability... tell me how many junior guys at AirTran are going to turn down that interview at the big D... I bet very few, but then I could be wrong... only time will tell.

And lets try to keep this a bit more professional, I know I have been a bit uncivil at times here, but debate my points, and not my IQ.

 

[HA25]

Hey V70, I would just give up on this thread. You sir, are in fact correct. The majors will recover, and make Bazillions of dollars, and the Pilots will end up renegotiating at the bottom of the next down turn (as always). I believe I saw that American pilots are signing a six year concessionary contract. I hope to hell they put a snapback clause in there somewhere...

Best regards,
68 pilot

I Wanted to, but I figure if I can just get one SWA, JB or other "Discount" pilot to quit priding themselves on working at a profitable airline while the rest of us are on the street and taking deep paycuts to compete with them, maybe they will step up to the plate and bat on in for the other 95,000 pilots out there working/furloughed at the "Airlines".

Even if I can just get to one of those cheerleaders, It will have been worth the insults.

 

[awaitingswa]

V70T5 has posted 16 times on this thread alone. Why don't we all just let him continue this "so-called" discussion on his own. He seems to be quite good at it.

 

[crosscut]

I flew at ASA long before AirTran came to ATL... I was there when we called you guys "Crispy Critter", and used to call a move to your airline a "lateral" move (coming from ASA)... I've seen guys come and go out of Concourse C, and I'm sure if they all had the benefit of 20/20 hind sight they would have thought different then about if they would have left AirTran for Delta. So don't try to paint me into this naive corporate pilot profile that I hardly fit.

Now, do me a favor... when the economy goes back to normal. and DAL returns to profitability... tell me how many junior guys at AirTran are going to turn down that interview at the big D... I bet very few, but then I could be wrong... only time will tell.

And lets try to keep this a bit more professional, I know I have been a bit uncivil at times here, but debate my points, and not my IQ.

Yeah, uh-hu – and Delta was born as the Delta we know today and NOT some sh!thole crop dusting outfit in Louisiana. I bet some time ago there were many that would consider “a move to your airline” as going backwards (not even lateral). I wonder if there was ever anyone who may have thought that if “…if he had the benefit of 20/20 hind sight he would have thought different THEN about if he would have left Delta for Eastern.” Times They’re a changin’.

And when Delta returns to profitability (and I know they eventually will) – a) it won’t be the same Delta you & I would have applied to 2 years ago; & b) no junior guy (in his right mind) at Airtran would even consider an “interview at the bid D” if this downturn is any indication of how unprepared Delta (among others) is for the economy down cycles.

"…Crispy Critter …” why don’t YOU “debate points?” or is this cheap shot just to make you feel better about not having the foresight beyond the dot.bomb bubble boom of the happy-go-lucky nineties thinking the $1,000 w/up fares would last forever. And Mister Crispy Critter to you.

“…step up to the plate and bat on in for the other 95,000 pilots out there working/furloughed at the…” you mean “bat” the same way that the “ALPA brotherhood” was going to bat for those out on strike at EAL. Dude, this one’s easy – that means I wait until you dissolve and then give you the one-finger salute as I keep “…priding myself on working at a profitable airline…” Deal!!

Lead the way to keeping it professional, V7.

 

[NYRANGERS]

V70T5 has posted 16 times on this thread alone. Why don't we all just let him continue this "so-called" discussion on his own. He seems to be quite good at it.

Just because you don't want to accept his points, does not mean they are invalid.

 

[NYRANGERS]

And when Delta returns to profitability (and I know they eventually will) – a) it won’t be the same Delta you & I would have applied to 2 years ago; & b) no junior guy (in his right mind) at Airtran would even consider an “interview at the bid D” if this downturn is any indication of how unprepared Delta (among others) is for the economy down cycles.

How bout' we get back to the point of this being a tough one for AA. Not how many airlines can start up and make the cost of flying across the country $20 all the while lowering the compensation and career expectations for those who chose this profession in the future.

As for interviewing at Delta in the future, we should not really comment on who will attend. We will see how things look in the future.

 

[Slug]

Delta strings

Its funny how many threads not relating in any way to Delta get hijacked into a Delta vs. the others debate.

Just an observation.



Slug

 

[crosscut]

How bout' we get back to the point of this being a tough one for AA.

Tell that to V7

 

[USNFDX]

You ever notice?

....Why a VCR only costs about 50 bucks when it used to cost over$600.

....Why the cost of most consumer goods are far less than they used to be, even without inflation factored in.

Yes, you're correct! It's because labor is so much less than it used to be. And of course, nothing is made in the US anymore.


You ever notice?

.....Why airfare is so much less than it used to be, even without inflation factored in.

Although, aviation jobs are not leaving the country, the net affect of those willing to work for less is the same. CEOs and Consumers look at a ticket from LAX to DFW in the same way they look at $49 VCR at Walmart. The cheaper the better. And as long as some Malaysian kid is willing to work for less than a buck a day, or some hungry pilot $18K a year. That's what we are going to get!

CEOs answer only to shareholders. If they could get you to work for free, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

There are no "for people" companies out there. Just "for profit" companies.

I'm not saying that there aren't companies out there that treat their employees well, there are. But they do it to make "happy workers", which may be compensated less for greater productivity.

This is corporate America, not just American, SWA, Fedex or anybody else.

Fire Away!

 

[HA25]

Re: You ever notice?

....Why a VCR only costs about 50 bucks when it used to cost over$600.

....Why the cost of most consumer goods are far less than they used to be, even without inflation factored in.

Yes, you're correct! It's because labor is so much less than it used to be. And of course, nothing is made in the US anymore.


You ever notice?

.....Why airfare is so much less than it used to be, even without inflation factored in.

Although, aviation jobs are not leaving the country, the net affect of those willing to work for less is the same. CEOs and Consumers look at a ticket from LAX to DFW in the same way they look at $49 VCR at Walmart. The cheaper the better. And as long as some Malaysian kid is willing to work for less than a buck a day, or some hungry pilot $18K a year. That's what we are going to get!

CEOs answer only to shareholders. If they could get you to work for free, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

There are no "for people" companies out there. Just "for profit" companies.

I'm not saying that there aren't companies out there that treat their employees well, there are. But they do it to make "happy workers", which may be compensated less for greater productivity.

This is corporate America, not just American, SWA, Fedex or anybody else.

Fire Away!

At the risk of turning this group on you, I have to say that what you have stated is very sensible and hinges on some basic economic principals.... Labor is just a cost to a corporation, and the less they have to pay for it, the less it costs them to sell.

I wonder how the guys at SWA expect American or any other major to compete on an even footing with regards to a business model, when SWA pays their pilots a lot less. Yes, I know SWA pilots can make in the mid 200's sure, but they fly their butts off doing it... Pay is more complicated that a paycheck, they're productivity and other factors like pension etc...

Now, the other airlines with ALPA and APA as their unions have made great gains in productivity to the advantage of their pilots, and therefore have opened more jobs up... which to me as a pilot is a good thing. Sure, the consumer may not benefit, but then using that logic, we could cut a lot of costs to nil to the consumer's benefit... Labor and Consumer are not the same side of the market place.

But, when it costs SWA X dollars to transport a seat mile, while the others pay 2X... how can they be expected to compete? It's impossible, the only option is to pay everyone X.... then when JB grows up and is only paying 1/2X, SWA and the others can compete downward etc...

That is a dream cycle for airline managers, but a nightmare for us pilots. That is all I'm trying to say, and all I get is discount carrier pilots crapping all over me for just stating pure economic facts.

 

[HA25]

"?Crispy Critter ?? why don?t YOU ?debate points?? or is this cheap shot just to make you feel better about not having the foresight beyond the dot.bomb bubble boom of the happy-go-lucky nineties thinking the $1,000 w/up fares would last forever. And Mister Crispy Critter to you.
Lead the way to keeping it professional, V7.

You don't like crispy critter, then take that up with the boys at ASA... I didn't invent that, that was coined after the 3rd DC9 set afire on the ramp in ATL.... There was a time when ValueJet was not running the newest or best maintained 717's... sorry if that came accross as an insult, I was just trying to make to point to Ty Webb that I'm not just some green corporate pilot with no understanding of "his" airline industry..

on the contrary... I've got plenty of experience paying dues at the pre-Delta ASA, which was not the best place to work, nor did most of us work there for any long duration of time unless we had to. I understand that has changed now with the DAL purchase and the addition of RJ's and a modernization of the company... for a while ASA was going to buy AirTran if you remember.... the filing with the SEC was back in 1999.

 

[HA25]

Tell that to V7

Tell me what?

I am not in my second year at AA today because of 9/11, the economy, and to some degree, i argue (or at least I have less to return to) because of the brave new world that SWA, JB and AirTran are blazing for us.

All of this is exactly about how hard it is on the "guys" from AA, I was one of them!

If that sounds like sour grapes, then fine...

 

[jinxy]

V7

A large percentage of the customers that fly SWA could not afford to fly if it wasn't for SWA. So in a lot of ways we didn't steal your pax as your posts seem to suggest,or your pilot jobs.

 

[Ty Webb]

OK, first of all, I am not knocking you for flying corporate equipment . . . . I enjoyed my time as a corporate skipper. I was trying to point out to you that you were throwing stones from behind a tree, so to speak. Your beef is not with AirTran pilots, it's with an industry in turmoil.

What we, as airline pilots, have to realize is that we are all trying to work under a flawed system . . . one where your earning power is tied not to your skill and experience, but to the skill of your company's management.

What I am trying to say is that we need a Guild, not individual unions or chapters at each company. A 20-year captain should not have to start off at the bottom if his company goes TU after 20 years. Almost every "trade" or "profession" has recognized that fact but ours.

The way that it would work is like this- Your seniority number is in the Profession, not in your company. You can change your "bid" every year or two, based upon service in the industry. . . . . your company goes tits up- it's not your fault, you simply bid to another company.

Before you guys dismiss it simply because it is different, think about it- maybe a ten-year grandfathered period, with fences, but after that . . . you bid for a seat!

A newbie flight instructs . . . . gets a year or two, and could bid for check-hauling . . . or for regional right seat on a turboprop. next bid . . . maybe left seat t-prop, or right seat RJ. Next bid, left seat RJ, or right seat DC9 . . . etc

When a company needs to hire more pilots, they put out a bid to the Guild for "300 narrowbody pilots for a BWI base", plus "150 regional jet pilots for an ATL base" etc.

The added advantage is that airlines have to compete for pilots to bid there, based on the bennies, since they are all paying the same hourly rate for the seat . . . . To to attract pilots to bid there, they have to offer things such as multiple bases, crew meals, better hotels, better layovers, etc.

The advantage to the Industry? Well, they will all have similar labor costs, which are set by the Guild.

Laugh if you want, but it is the best thing that could happen to all of us, and to the industry, and this is probably the first time in history that it has a rat's @ss chance of coming about, what with all the conflict going on at ALPO.

Serious thoughts, anyone?

 

[Blue Dude]

A Pilot's Guild isn't a bad idea in theory, but it would take an Act of Congress or God to make it happen, and I'm not certain which of those is more likely. How are you going to "make" a company take Guild members? The only certain way to sell this idea would be to tie it to safety, but that would be hard to pull off. Thoughts?