AA to Lay Off 2,500 Pilots...... Ouch!!!

[crosscut]

You don't like crispy critter, then take that up with the boys at ASA... I didn't invent that, that was coined after the 3rd DC9 set afire on the ramp in ATL.... There was a time when ValueJet was not running the newest or best maintained 717's... sorry if that came accross as an insult, I was just trying to make to point to Ty Webb that I'm not just some green corporate pilot with no understanding of "his" airline industry..

on the contrary... I've got plenty of experience paying dues at the pre-Delta ASA, which was not the best place to work, nor did most of us work there for any long duration of time unless we had to. I understand that has changed now with the DAL purchase and the addition of RJ's and a modernization of the company... for a while ASA was going to buy AirTran if you remember.... the filing with the SEC was back in 1999.

I’m well aware of the crispy critter and to an extent I can see the why’s of your arguments. My “sour grapes” is people running out of arguments will resort to stabs of “when I was there we called you…” well – we called you something else when I was elsewhere – but how is that to influence my point? Also, a lot of your “don’t likes” are misdirected as the airline is an ever-evolving industry. Decades ago Delta was the Walmart of the industry making a profit on the back of other “overpaid” airline groups. My point was that Delta (or any other major) didn’t start as the Delta we know today but went through an evolution of a crop-duster through a major often utilizing the tactics you’re arguing against. Delta’s problem is Delta, AA’s problem is AA, UAL’s …etc. Ea airline has a life cycle w/ever growing retirements, pay scales, rules blah blah & your arguments are essentially the same as trying to reverse the process of aging. The road of our profession has not changed its course since where it was years & years ago and guess what (drum roll) the current LCCs will too be underbid as they mature. Some will say, “wait, but you get what you pay for.” As someone else pointed out – the cost of goods decreases while the reliability & efficiency increases. & look around – ours is not the only industry.

 

[HA25]

OK, first of all, I am not knocking you for flying corporate equipment . . . . I enjoyed my time as a corporate skipper. I was trying to point out to you that you were throwing stones from behind a tree, so to speak. Your beef is not with AirTran pilots, it's with an industry in turmoil.

What we, as airline pilots, have to realize is that we are all trying to work under a flawed system . . . one where your earning power is tied not to your skill and experience, but to the skill of your company's management.

What I am trying to say is that we need a Guild, not individual unions or chapters at each company. A 20-year captain should not have to start off at the bottom if his company goes TU after 20 years. Almost every "trade" or "profession" has recognized that fact but ours.

The way that it would work is like this- Your seniority number is in the Profession, not in your company. You can change your "bid" every year or two, based upon service in the industry. . . . . your company goes tits up- it's not your fault, you simply bid to another company.

Before you guys dismiss it simply because it is different, think about it- maybe a ten-year grandfathered period, with fences, but after that . . . you bid for a seat!

A newbie flight instructs . . . . gets a year or two, and could bid for check-hauling . . . or for regional right seat on a turboprop. next bid . . . maybe left seat t-prop, or right seat RJ. Next bid, left seat RJ, or right seat DC9 . . . etc

When a company needs to hire more pilots, they put out a bid to the Guild for "300 narrowbody pilots for a BWI base", plus "150 regional jet pilots for an ATL base" etc.

The added advantage is that airlines have to compete for pilots to bid there, based on the bennies, since they are all paying the same hourly rate for the seat . . . . To to attract pilots to bid there, they have to offer things such as multiple bases, crew meals, better hotels, better layovers, etc.

The advantage to the Industry? Well, they will all have similar labor costs, which are set by the Guild.

Laugh if you want, but it is the best thing that could happen to all of us, and to the industry, and this is probably the first time in history that it has a rat's @ss chance of coming about, what with all the conflict going on at ALPO.

Serious thoughts, anyone?

My God! What a breath of fresh air.... Thanks for letting me believe again Ty. I appreciate the serious ideas and the great points.

I have always championed a universal union of sorts, or a guild. I hate the idea that a Debunked UAL will spill 25,000hr 747 captains who may be too young to retire and offer them either a $27,000/year job at NetJets or the bottom of a seniority list at the current airline of choice...

This is a complex concept, but imagine if you could take your seniority number with you (if it were totally portable) and that it was handed to you upon being hired by your first FAR 121 National or larger airline.

It's like sports athletes... they get traded, so does their contract...

Now I don't advocate the whole contract going portable, but if the pilot was able to take his seniority number with him, now he can play the airlines against each other, rather than letting them play him...

That was thought one....

The other thing I am trying to say about SWA and others isn't that they don't just pay enough, because after 10 or 12 years and as a captain they pay a decent check for the type of equipment, but the major difference is the number of hours flown for that check. While I agree that we should have to work for our pay... I don't like having to bust my butt in a business where 14 hour days are a norm, and fatigue is the mother of all evils. It seems that SWA pilots have no problem with their work days and number of trips, so I am not trying to say that they are unsafe, but rather that it may not be possible to have every airline follow that level of crew utilization since the route structures, especially international can be very demanding on the human body with regards to sleep times and time needed to recover.

So to pressure all airline in making their pilots fly 65-80 hours per month would not only remove some 33% of all flying jobs permanently, but would also contribute to a lot of tired and possibly unsafe pilots flying routes that go farther than 5 hours from home.

Finally, I want to make it clear that I have no beef with any individual pilot for doing what he has to to feed his family. I am doing something I don't particularly like myself, that is flying what would be first class pax to places that American or Delta could be flying them, so I am part of the problem... The difference is that I work with some 40 other pilots and have no union so there isn't much I can do to improve my own situation (not that its that bad for the type of work I do). They try very hard to keep us happy and therefore never worry about a union coming in (or so that is their theory).

But I do think that Net Jets is a corporate (like FAR 135) place that is hurting both myself in my job, and the greater good of the profession, since they pay their Citation X captains as little as $48,000/year and as much as $85,000, all of which is bellow industry average, and then to compound their low pay, they also operate more of these airplanes than any one else. This also applies to their Falcon2000, Citation VII, Hawkers and Citation V. Only their BBJ pays a reasonably good salary and that is ironically their lest profitable operation. I know many Net Jets drivers and they swear that they will get a 100% raise our of their company over 5 years or they'll walk (because they are sooooo far behind the ball on pay).

But it never helps Pilots in general to have an 800 pound guerrilla such as Net Jets in the Charter/91 world, or SWA in the 121 world paying less for more work. And I can only hope that SWA, being so profitable will give their pilots more money, or at least set up a retirement pension to add to their stock plan. Otherwise, the idea of a retirement plan will never float again.

 

[HA25]

I?m well aware of the crispy critter and to an extent I can see the why?s of your arguments. My ?sour grapes? is people running out of arguments will resort to stabs of ?when I was there we called you?? well ? we called you something else when I was elsewhere ? but how is that to influence my point? Also, a lot of your ?don?t likes? are misdirected as the airline is an ever-evolving industry. Decades ago Delta was the Walmart of the industry making a profit on the back of other ?overpaid? airline groups. My point was that Delta (or any other major) didn?t start as the Delta we know today but went through an evolution of a crop-duster through a major often utilizing the tactics you?re arguing against. Delta?s problem is Delta, AA?s problem is AA, UAL?s ?etc. Ea airline has a life cycle w/ever growing retirements, pay scales, rules blah blah & your arguments are essentially the same as trying to reverse the process of aging. The road of our profession has not changed its course since where it was years & years ago and guess what (drum roll) the current LCCs will too be underbid as they mature. Some will say, ?wait, but you get what you pay for.? As someone else pointed out ? the cost of goods decreases while the reliability & efficiency increases. & look around ? ours is not the only industry.

Point well taken... I realy didn't mean any insult by it, just wanted to come up with a village idiot refute. Anyway... As for your points about the reshaping of the industry, sure I'm all for it, but lets not loose sight of how easily we can loose 50 years of progress under the banter of "new model" or "high efficiency". I'm all for letting the Carty's of the world figure out a better way of doing things, just not on my dime. Now, onto productive discussions.

 

[WhiteCloud]

I have always championed a universal union of sorts, or a guild. I hate the idea that a Debunked UAL will spill 25,000hr 747 captains who may be too young to retire and offer them either a $27,000/year job at NetJets or the bottom of a seniority list at the current airline of choice...

This is a complex concept, but imagine if you could take your seniority number with you (if it were totally portable) and that it was handed to you upon being hired by your first FAR 121 National or larger airline.

That's how AMO the American Maritime Officers Union does it. It's pretty complex and probably would not work for aviation. My understanding is that an a Seaman doesn't work for the company, but, rather works through the union. Their benefits and retirement come through the union. The demands for training are less specific than in aviation. They can sail on ships they have never sailed on before with only a few hours of indoctrination. Personally, the last thing I want is some 25K hour 747 pilot coming into a new company and displacing guys that have worked there for years. They can start from scratch the same way anyone else would have to do at their former airline.

 

[HA25]

That's how AMO the American Maritime Officers Union does it. It's pretty complex and probably would not work for aviation. My understanding is that an a Seaman doesn't work for the company, but, rather works through the union. Their benefits and retirement come through the union. The demands for training are less specific than in aviation. They can sail on ships they have never sailed on before with only a few hours of indoctrination. Personally, the last thing I want is some 25K hour 747 pilot coming into a new company and displacing guys that have worked there for years. They can start from scratch the same way anyone else would have to do at their former airline.

Yeah, but this sword would cut both ways, you may be that 25K captain some day.... its no different that seniority at your company now.... it sucked when you were junior and it gets better as you move along... same with the universal union.

This may not happen soon, but if downward pressure on wages becomes a long term effect of this re-invention of the airlines, it may well come eventually.

 

[sleepy]

Re: Delta strings

Its funny how many threads not relating in any way to Delta get hijacked into a Delta vs. the others debate.

Just an observation.



Slug

If you think this is bad, you should see what happens on the ALPA forum. The same 20 pilots from DAL, ASA, and Comair, making the same arguments over and over again.

 

[canyonblue]

The other thing I am trying to say about SWA and others isn't that they don't just pay enough, because after 10 or 12 years and as a captain they pay a decent check for the type of equipment, but the major difference is the number of hours flown for that check. While I agree that we should have to work for our pay... I don't like having to bust my butt in a business where 14 hour days are a norm, and fatigue is the mother of all evils.

You don't even know what SWA pay is so quit comparing it to anyone elses. I don't mind flying productively to earn my paycheck, then again I have a work ethic. All the work rules "gained" by the great AA's UAL's DAL's were won during a regulated industry. Sooo tough to negotiate when you're the only game in town. SWA has been fighting for survival over half it's lifespan. First with freakin Braniff with their $18 fares to put us under to the assorted Shuttles, Metro-jets, Lites and all the rest that come to finally end the life of an airline that takes a tiny fraction of their business. Get real Ace, we are the n u m b e r 6, read this 6, airline and you write like we dictate the World Bank. As we all have witnessed France does not dictate what the United States does as SWA should not dictate UAL, DAL, AA. Those are the airlines that need to set their standards because when a global airline lowers its costs the others will have to follow. Why did UAL take a pay cut? That then forced AA and in turn will force DAL and so on and so on. If the 3 largest airlines with the most market share refuse to take cuts then the management must rethink its business plan. Why did the airlines take cuts in the early 90's? SWA was half the size it is now. The problem I have with these arguments are that the people who want SWA, jetBlue and AirTran pilots to get more money are the pilots who work at the companies that try to keep us from making more. Want the LCC's to pay more? then abandon Song, Starfish and anyother plan to undercut a LCC. A recent UAL jumpseater bitter about his paycut went on about how now that they have lowered costs, he wants to destroy every other carrier out there. The problem is you are so concerned with SWA that you are missing what all the other Global Carriers are doing to you. Everyone can take their paycuts and blame all the LCC's but the fact remains that you have the vote, and have no one to blame but yourselves. A couple of closing items, I have never worked over a 13 hour duty day at SWA and not many over 10. If you want to stay in aviation and collect alot of money for little work, the TSA is hiring. Sorry but many of these airlines have tried to put the SWA out of business, some still do. You wont get my sympathy for your ills. Quite frankly, I just don't like them. And yes SWA did make a profit last year, 51% less than 2001. Thanks to the Globals for cutting again.

 

[StopNTSing]

VT:

I'm sorry things have not worked out for you at AA.

SWA, JB, AT, ATA, etc. are NOT the problem. They were there before 9/11 catering to their market, and they are still here...catering to their market. The problem in this environment is your (AA's) market has excessive capacity. There simply are not enough premium-fare passengers to support the six major airlines who depend solely on them to make a profit. If one or more were to liquidate today, the survivors would be in a much better financial position.

From the network carrier labor perspective, the new reality is either a race to the cellar to furlough and gut contracts (which ultimately will only buy time, not fix the problem) or wait for somebody to go Ch7. For the "good of the profession" I know which scenario I would prefer.

Finally, I didn't see SWA being much of an anchor for AA, UA or Delta during their contract negotiations in the late 90's (when we were still operating under a contract signed in the last recession!). History seems to indicate your negotiating position is much more influenced by the overall financial strength of your company, than by what some niche carrier is paying their pilots.

Put the blame where it belongs: on Carty's shoulders, not SWA's.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Yeah, but this sword would cut both ways, you may be that 25K captain some day.... its no different that seniority at your company now.... it sucked when you were junior and it gets better as you move along... same with the universal union.

This may not happen soon, but if downward pressure on wages becomes a long term effect of this re-invention of the airlines, it may well come eventually.

Just some more info about the AMO deal. You get paid for the job you do and not for longevity. Whoever fills the job gets the pay that job offers. Jobs pay x amount and that's what you get if you accept the position which is usually 3-4 months. After you complete the job you go on vacation pay which is usually half the time you were away and then you can register for another job and your name is added to the bottom of the list. When it gets to the top you get called for jobs. Companies have some discretion in who is hired and a Seaman has some discretion in the kinds of jobs they will accept. A company does not have to accept a certain Seaman if the don't like him for any legal reason. I'm not necessarily opposed to a multi company union but there are other issues that can make it undesireable for pilots. Ziggy1

 

[WhiteCloud]

Everybody I know personally at SWA basically likes their job. It's not the biggest paycheck around but it's steady and there is not the Pilot vs. Management crap that is industry standard everywhere else.