AA to Lay Off 2,500 Pilots...... Ouch!!!

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: Re: Re: Oracle of the Industry, I like that.

Can you at least admit this: LCC pay affects the pay at Legacy carriers.

Good luck with that one. It seems pretty obvious to me, but for some, you might as well be posting that the earth is flat.

 

[pilot141]

Boy, am I glad I came back from a trip and found this thread.....

Wait, this thread has NOTHING to do with the TITLE!! It has taken on the unavoidable life of ANY thread in this forum.....I make too much, I'm somehow stealing jobs from the virtuous people at the LCCs, and I'm not productive.

Since Cardinal has done such a good job articulating the arguments supporting a PROFESSION, I will not go there. I will say that I have voted against the TA here at AA because I believe that it gives back too many years of progress in our PROFESSION. For the people here willing to work for minimal wages because it is a JOB, I understand: it is a JOB. But that is not a PROFESSION. I decided 17 years ago that I wanted to pursue this PROFESSION. I was fortunate enough to enter this PROFESSION three years ago, after years of college and years of doing a JOB for the military.

My sister is younger than me and finished law school five years ago. In her PROFESSION she already earns more than I do. I'm about to get a pay cut and a furlough shoved down my throat after 13 years in this JOB. I am doing my feeble best to convince people to not take this demeaning blow to our "PROFESSION", but too many people think of this as a JOB. Bagging my groceries and grilling my fajitas are JOBS; flying airplanes, prosecuting crimes and removing tumors are PROFESSIONS.

Respect yourself.

 

[WhiteCloud]

I guess I just wish that there was a industry wide, or mandated rate for a certain type of Jet, ....say $230/hr on a 717 with a 12-16 day work month (depending on seniority)... but sadly that is just a dream for now... maybe when we as pilots get frustrated enough to all join in a strike for our friends on the lower end of the scale.. that will change. This is idealism however, as we are all also individual beings with our own individual agendas and lives to live... no one wants to strike, or stage a walk off for another's airline. This may change one day, but not anytime soon.

This is a great idea but ALPA and friends will have to drastically change their approach. Right now all we get from ALPA is "If you work here or do that it will be DANGEROUS to your career". Just a bunch of threats and intimidation.

 

[FL717]

Okay.. here it goes and I hope you all see this. I was going to start a new thread on the other General board, but knew the people I wanted to see this would be here.

This thread was about AA layoffs. Most threads that I post on within this site have nothing to do with AirTran, me, etc. All the posts on this website that pertain to information or helpful info that I can contribute to... I do. I will help anyone I can if I can. I receive MANY Pm's and I always respond and help IF I can. (I can't do alot regarding employment.. but give info). This is a great website, and has helped me and many like me alot.

I know MANY of the people that post on this board personally.
FlyDeltaJets, Cardinal, V70T5: Wouldn't know any of you if you walked in front of me. We all end up posting, and post on threads that involve or concern us, regardless of the thread title. When we get into things, its rough because of our differing life experiences prior, but most importantly our life experiences right now. Its also tough because we all have our volume levels and they vary. There is nothing... NOTHING.. really personal, even with the barbs thrown. And WE ALL DO IT in our own way.

FDJ: I really was trying to change our tone, because quite frankly, you are a really an insightful poster,and while I feel you have taken shots at FL, and maybe others directly, I read with great interest and open mind to your posts, and wanted to put past duels to rest, in order for you to continue your contributions, whether I agree or not. I would really like to move beyond this level discussion and see what you, and others think could be done in this industry, beyond "the LCC's are ruining the industry". I am confident yours and others thinking is beyond that. I assumed you remembered my screenname, but ... my post and this post was/is an olive branch.

Cardinal: I read your large post, and I have the proofreading credit as evidence. You seem to be very well thought, and are ABSOLUTELY correct in most if not all your observations. BUT.. I disagree on an entirely different level, and will explain on another thread. Again it was a fun exchange. I didn't address the full scope because my point is not being listened too. I am going to start a new thread on the other General board, and hope that it will include many people who aren't even aware of this exchange.

If you search all of my posts on this forum, it is evident that while I have a quick keyboard, I'm not some young kid flamebaiter, etc. I really do contribute, but I have to have fun too. My volume may be louder than others, but the volume increase from normal is not markedly different from you all. Look... I even got Cardinal to curse/cuss in his post.

Peace...?

 

[HA25]

Boy, am I glad I came back from a trip and found this thread.....

Wait, this thread has NOTHING to do with the TITLE!! It has taken on the unavoidable life of ANY thread in this forum.....I make too much, I'm somehow stealing jobs from the virtuous people at the LCCs, and I'm not productive.

Since Cardinal has done such a good job articulating the arguments supporting a PROFESSION, I will not go there. I will say that I have voted against the TA here at AA because I believe that it gives back too many years of progress in our PROFESSION. For the people here willing to work for minimal wages because it is a JOB, I understand: it is a JOB. But that is not a PROFESSION. I decided 17 years ago that I wanted to pursue this PROFESSION. I was fortunate enough to enter this PROFESSION three years ago, after years of college and years of doing a JOB for the military.

My sister is younger than me and finished law school five years ago. In her PROFESSION she already earns more than I do. I'm about to get a pay cut and a furlough shoved down my throat after 13 years in this JOB. I am doing my feeble best to convince people to not take this demeaning blow to our "PROFESSION", but too many people think of this as a JOB. Bagging my groceries and grilling my fajitas are JOBS; flying airplanes, prosecuting crimes and removing tumors are PROFESSIONS.

Respect yourself.

hear hear!

I also have a couple of good friend on the senior end of the payscale and they too are a "no" vote. I would rather bankrupt every airline in this country than roll back the profession to the early 90's in one blow... and if they want a pay cut, then I want a snap back.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't think that it is a "race to the botom", I think that the industry has changed. Sorry. Air travel has become a commodity. It has been happening ever since deregulation.

I could just as easily make the statement that the LCC's could pay their pilots more, if they did not have to compete with airlines that were living beyond their means in "la-la land" this includes both those who are operating in bankruptcy (UAL, USAirways, and previously CAL, TWA, AWA, etc) and those like Delta, who are content to lose over $4 million a day, while dumping seats into our routes at prices below their cost.

"What?" you sputter . . . "The LCC sets the low price in the marketplace- it's their fault! And their pilots!".

Puh-lease.

It's pretty simple. The cost of a ticket is not just set by the LCC, as some would think. We've opened up proprietary [monopolistic] markets to competition. That's it, and what happens after that is largely the result of the re-action of the "Dominant" major.

See, what happens after we enter a market is that Delta responds by increasing, sometimes doubling, the number of seats they are flying into that market, in an attempt to keep people off of our airplanes, and they are offering the seats at a price below their cost. That's right- a company that is losing over $4 million a DAY is dumping seats into our markets BELOW THEIR COST. This, of course, means that we can't raise the price . . . . so, at this point, THEY are actually keeping the price low . . . so what they are doing, basically, is functioning as a "high-cost, low-fare airline" . . . and losing the difference.

Now, if the commodity in question were computer chips, or shrimp, or any other product, it would be considered "dumping" but since it is airline seats we are talking about, it is called "competition".

And the stupidest thing about it is that we are making money, while Delta is losing money . . . . which means that, if things don't change, they will eventually go bankrupt. It may take a few years instead of a few months, but they will run out of cash.

So why are they doing it? Because they somehow feel that it is THEIR marketshare. So they are dumping seats below their cost, hoping to bide their time until the business traveler comes back.

Well, I don't think that the business traveler, as they know him, is ever coming back, because they abused that customer by gouging him repeatedly, charging rates that would make a crack dealer blush.

So, to me, unless there is a paradigm shift in the opposite direction, like re-regulation, those salad days aren't coming back.

Obviously, what I have written will go against what most "legacy" carrier pilots want to believe. And I don;t expect you to agree with me . . . . but time will tell.

Anyone interested in seeing this in action need look no further than right here:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030407/atm003_1.html

Eachone of those is a city served by AirTran, and none of those rates are above Delta's cost. They are, however, above our cost, so we will make money at those prices. . . . . prices set by- DELTA.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Ty,

You keep repeating this assertion, yet won't answer my questions to refute it. I will try again.

Please post all the routes where we increased seats on routes you fly. You have mentioned two. Two does not a trend make. We have cut capacity by about 20%. That certainly seems to refute your allegation that we are losing money because of we dump too many seats in a market. Also, if we kept our prices higher as you have suggested, our airplanes would be empty and you would be adding service on every route. Airline tickets are very inelastic, and even a dollar increase in fares over a competitor will usually result in a lost sale. Res computers print lowest price first on an identical route, and the first shown is more often than not the one purchased. Your suggestion to us ignores that reality. There are many other factors that you seem content to ignore in your oft-repeated theory.

A. Every airline is suffering from fares being too low. Your thery seems to indicate that only fares on routes in direct competition to aai should suffer, as well as only those on which we have added capacity to combat you. The reality is more daunting than that.

B. There is too much capacity in the industry, causing airlines to lose their pricing ability. Most airlines recognize this and are cutting capacity. Some (yours included) are adding capacity, further harming the industry's price control ability. Do I blame them? Not really, if it makes sense for them. But it is pretty ironic to hear one of their pilots blame US for low fares by dumping seats in a market!

C. The ONLY airlines who are able to make a profit at current pricing levels are ones who pay their people below industy standard rates. I have mentioned this before, and people always argue that it doesn't have an effect on the profession. If that is the case, why is EVERY airline who does pay industry standard wages asking for concessions (major concessions)? LCC cost advantage lies primarily in wages and benefits. I think all of us, regardless of airline, should be pretty concerned about the future of this career. In most LCC examples, if the majors were to lower their wages and benefits to your level, your airline would die. Without low costs, you could not compete with our routes, schedules, size, international presence, ff program, alliances, cash reserves, marketing budget, etc. Your only choice would be to lower wages. Then we would be exactly where we are now, only making less money. LCC disciples can ignore it if they want, but their wage packages ARE having a devastating effect on this profession. MUCH worse than a few extra seats on a single route out of florida.

Of course, we could keep our fares higher or reduce flights. It certainly worked for USAir in BWI.

 

[Ty Webb]

FDJ:

I included a link in my post. Follow it and you will see a recent example.

You use the phrase "industry standard wages". This phrase doesn't really apply. While we both operate aircraft safely between US cities and sell seats to the public, what Delta is and does is different. Our target markets are different. Our routes are different. Our perks are different.

Even your own company and union realizes this. How do explain Delta Express? Are they not receiving "industry standard? If not, why did you guys allow it? Or, are they competing in a different industry?

I could address every point in your tome, which I believe was mostly cut-and-pasted from a previous respons to me on the same subject, but you and I look at the same situation and come away from it with two different conclusions. Perspective is everything, and my perspective is the view from the south side of Concourse C. Your view is that of a furloughed Delta pilot. I doubt you and I will ever see eye-to-eye on the matter, but, on a personal note, I really do hope that you are back to work soon.

Best of luck

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Ty,

Your link proved that we have no pricing power. It did not prove that the reason for this was "seat dumping." It also did not address any of the points that I have made.

However, I thank you for your good wishes.

 

[Ty Webb]

FDJ:

I would like to know about Delta Express. What rates are they being paid, and why did "Industry standard" not prevail, or was it determined that short-haul LCC type work was not the same industry?

About the "marketshare" issue- maybe an analogy will help clear this up:

Look at Ruth Chris' Steakhouse and Outback Steakhouse. Both are restaurants serving steaks to people in the same cities. One targets higher-end customers and offers a premium, gourmet product, the other offers a consistantly-prepared although decidedly non-gourmet meal for about half the price.

Most Ruth Chris' customers are going to prefer Ruth Chris. They may occaisionally dine at Outback, but most Outback customers are not going to pony up the $100. per plate that Ruth Chris' is going to cost . . . they are going to Outback, or, if Outback is full, they will likely just grill out (drive).

Is Outback dragging Ruth Chris' down a "race to the bottom"? Of course not.


Are we doing the same to Delta? Nope. We are snagging many people who would never pay the $600. that Delta would charge if we weren't there, a few that are price-driven to choose us, a few that couldn't fit n your planes due to a cancellation or oversold condition, and a few that just happen to like flying AirTran (hard for you to believe, but we have 'em, and we sure appreciate them).

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

While I think that there is a huge difference in the quality between the two airlines, I don't think that the general public makes the same distinction between Delta and AAI that they do between Ruth's Chris and Outback. It has been proven time and time again that the number one purchase driver in airline seats is price. Period. The vast majority of the time, the airline with the lower price gets the business, a prime reason why we cannot just keep prices up and expect to keep our passengers.

As far as Delta Express goes, I think it illustrates my point perfectly. We were losing to the lcc's, so on routes where we compete the most, mgt asked for a paycut. It is a perfect example of what I have been saying all along: The compensation packages of the lcc's CERTAINLY have an effect on those of the legacy carriers. Now, as the lcc's are invading more of our route structure, we are again asked to take concessions. Sort of a Delta Express over the entire system, if you will.

To answer your question, we accepted Delta Express because mgt threatened to sell all the 737-200's and concede the market to LUV if we did not give in. Perhaps we should have called their bluff, I wasn't here at the time. But we did work very hard to narrow the gap between Delta Express and the rest of the system on the last contract. If we knew mgt was going to abandon Express anyway, maybe our negotiating capital could have been better spent. Hindsight is 20/20. Since you asked, however, the DEX payrates are below. I think that you will find that we did not exacly sell out. They were to increase significantly in 2004 if DEX were to survive.

Captian
Year one = $164/hour
Year 12 = $190/hour

F/O
Year 1 = $54/hour (year one salary the same for every airplane)
Year 2 = $89/hr
Year 3 = $104/hour
Year 12 = $130/hour

Now that DEX is disappearing, the rates revert to 737-300 rates, which are approximately $30/hour more.

P.S.
Ruth's Chris is good, but I don't think you can beat Bones in Buckhead. I'm not from ATL, but when I get down there, it's a must-go!

 

[HA25]

FDJ:

I included a link in my post. Follow it and you will see a recent example.

You use the phrase "industry standard wages". This phrase doesn't really apply. While we both operate aircraft safely between US cities and sell seats to the public, what Delta is and does is different. Our target markets are different. Our routes are different. Our perks are different.

Even your own company and union realizes this. How do explain Delta Express? Are they not receiving "industry standard? If not, why did you guys allow it? Or, are they competing in a different industry?

Best of luck

Ty, those very points are just what we are talking about.... you are admitting that AirTran is providing different wages and perks... but yet they DO compete with many DAL routes, some via ASA but many directly with mainline, and this is why DAL had to lower their pay for Express to try (and fail) to compete.

I say, you should bring your pay and bene's up to DAL's and then you both can compete on a more even field. ALPA's stated goal is to take pay and bene's out of the competitive equation.


BTW... Best stake in ATL is Bones... hands down... but Mortons an Ruths Cris are good for being a chain.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Another Bones man! I knew I liked you V70!

That gives me a good idea...let's start a restaurant thread on the general board. I'll start it now.

 

[Ty Webb]

Does anyone else see the irony of two furloughed guys telling me that I should be holding out for higher pay?

Rest assured, when our contract comes up, we will look to improve our situation. However, what we decide to go with will represent a realistic amount for the type of aircraft we are flying in the market segment we serve.

However, what is important to me and what is important to you are apprently very different.

I hope you guys are right, and in three or four years I am over here drooling over your pay and bennies, but to quote Bruce Springsteen (since someone else was quoting Ayn Rand, for crying out loud), "Those jobs are gone, boys, and they ain't coming back".

Not talking about your job, per se but by the time you guys ever start hiring again, I am sure that I will be much better off staying where I am, both for quality of life and job security (if there ever is such a thing).

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Frankly, I don't find it ironic at all. You see, we are only the first to feel the effects of current industry pressures. There will be others, if the trend isn't addressed.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FDJ: I really was trying to change our tone, because quite frankly, you are a really an insightful poster,and while I feel you have taken shots at FL, and maybe others directly, I read with great interest and open mind to your posts, and wanted to put past duels to rest, in order for you to continue your contributions, whether I agree or not. I would really like to move beyond this level discussion and see what you, and others think could be done in this industry, beyond "the LCC's are ruining the industry". I am confident yours and others thinking is beyond that. I assumed you remembered my screenname, but ... my post and this post was/is an olive branch.

The olive branch is accepted, and thank you for the compliment. While I do have some ideas about things that can be done in this industry, the first order of business should be to get people to admit that there is a problem. I have attempted to do that for a while, but all to often people interpret my concern for our collectinve future as "taking shots" at people. That is never, and has never been my intent. As always, I apologize if anyone takes my post the wrong way.

As for our future, we are lost if people don't at least admit that our profession is on the decline. Because some airlines have not yet felt the pain in no way means that their pilots are exempt from the same market pressures we all face. As long as people (not you personally) bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge that allowing mgts to compete by undercutting salaries may have harmful consequences, discussing solutions is pointless.

 

[HA25]

Does anyone else see the irony of two furloughed guys telling me that I should be holding out for higher pay?
.

not at all.... you see the demand situation is related to the economy, but the labo wages are an artificial issue, and if all pilots who are employed to fill current demand were to get paid a certain wage, that would benefit all in the long run. I also think a lot of the furloughs are related to RJ's flying mainline routs..... again, is that becasue this is the way it's going to be in the future, or is that because at this time RJ pilots are paid less to work more... typical ASA line had 80 hours of hard flying per month... then factor in the 60-90K captain pay rates... we'll who would want to crew up a 737 when two RJ's can do it for less?

 

[FL717]

The olive branch is accepted, and thank you for the compliment. While I do have some ideas about things that can be done in this industry, the first order of business should be to get people to admit that there is a problem. I have attempted to do that for a while, but all to often people interpret my concern for our collectinve future as "taking shots" at people. That is never, and has never been my intent. As always, I apologize if anyone takes my post the wrong way.

As for our future, we are lost if people don't at least admit that our profession is on the decline. Because some airlines have not yet felt the pain in no way means that their pilots are exempt from the same market pressures we all face. As long as people (not you personally) bury their heads in the sand and refuse to acknowledge that allowing mgts to compete by undercutting salaries may have harmful consequences, discussing solutions is pointless.

Agreed.

I have started a thread on the General Board (right next to your popular Restaurant thread) and want to really discuss and be educated to see these points of views.. away from the emotional aspect. I can yell loud too, but then people get turned off, which is fine, but some of you I want to continue to contribute. I've realized some of you people really are smart, and as smart as I feel, and as astute to the situation as I feel, why don't I see it the same way. I have several ideas.. but who knows.

Feel free to contribute on that thread if you see fit. I promise to break it all out, and without taking space on a "interview" board non topical thread.

 

[FL717]

... typical ASA line had 80 hours of hard flying per month... then factor in the 60-90K captain pay rates... we'll who would want to crew up a 737 when two RJ's can do it for less?

But economically, CAN 2 RJ's do it for less? See, I'm being told from other people, that RJ's are in fact more expensive to operate because of the CASM.

This partially gets into an argument that I avoided with Cardinal several replies ago, because I wasn't interested in the economics. Cardinal was right about his points, but I was trying to steer into philosophy, "I've got my career, get yours", which wasn't fair to his argument. I'm still not into the economics side beyond common sense, but I'm curious as to the RJ issue.

I really hate to continue this on this thread.

 

[enigma]

, and if all pilots who are employed to fill current demand were to get paid a certain wage, that would benefit all in the long run.

Maybe I missed it, but I still haven't read your ideas on how to realistically accomplish this pay plan. Until you find a way to control the pilot supply in the same way the AMA controls MD's, none of the griping about LCC pilots will amount to anything.

regards,
8N