AA to Lay Off 2,500 Pilots...... Ouch!!!

[FlyDeltasJets]

V70t5:


AirTran will lose its competitive advantage if we follow the legacy carriers in total compensation packages.. period. I do not believe in industry standard. I couldn't care less what your company or any other airline pays their employees. Never have. I care about what our pilots get paid.. and how our pilots are treated, and what our quality of life is. That is the key, not following some other company over a cliff.

Thank you for making the point I have been laboring to make for ages. I agree with you completely.

My question is, what do you think would happen to your compensation package if the legacy carriers lower theirs to your level, which obviously seems to be the trend. You said above, you would lose your competitive advantage. Your only chance would be to reduce your package yet again. Then we would once again be attacked for our costs being too high. Where would it end? We are on a slippery slope right now, and very few people want to admit it. I'm glad you did admit it, and I'm glad you see my point, even if you didn't realize it before.

P.S.
I'm not sure what you were trying to imply with your last sentence, but can I assume it was meant to be insult? Why am I not surprised?

PPS
If it were, as you suggest, "all about me," why has V70 been personally insulted as well? Apparently it is a favored tactic in response to our common concerns.

 

[FL717]

FlyDeltaJets:

It was not an insult to you. I saw that you were logged on the board and thought you might see my reply and ad some insight with another post. Sorry.

I knew that you'd pick up on something that I agree with that you have been stating for some time. I do agree with the hypothetical situation that could occur, but disagree about it even being a remote possiblity therefore not a viable arguement. Many thing on this planet are possible, but that doesn't mean they happen.

Also, I did not think I insulted V70T5 at all? If I did, apologies to him also.

Just enjoying some banter on the 'board'.

 

[Cardinal]

Oracle of the Industry, I like that.

I guess I tipped over the "Citrus" cart.

First of all, my knowledge of economics does not stem solely from a work of fiction. I incorrectly assumed that a degree in Business Admin, entrepeneurial success and failure, and a lifetime of study qualified me to BS on an internet message board, but apparently not. Many individuals would pick up an economics textbook only if a gun were held on them. The novel I reffered to is merely illustrative of the principles contained within the academic tome, and more "accessible." Of course the last 50 years has in no way changed the impetus for production, but whatever.

I believe you are referring to "Hard Landing: The Epic Contest for Power and Profits That Plunged the Airlines into Chaos," by Thomas Petzinger. If so, it was a wonderful read. I would also recommend G. Hopkins' work, "The Airline Pilots, A Study in Elite Unionization," and "Flying the Line," Volumes I, and II.

AirTran by the way IS NOT at the bottom, regardless of what you "think", and your "thinking" is incorrect. Our contract is equal to and in some cases better than our peer group (MidEx, Sprirt, Frontier, etc)...........Most B-1900 operators are bottom end. Many regional codeshares are bottom end. SWA is not. As far as your koolaid comment.. it really sums up your true knowledge of this Mr. Kamikazi

I did not say that. I said "bottom-half of the industry," which includes the "peer group" you mention. In any case the comparison is not being made between FL and F9, it is between the Old Line majors and the upstarts. And yes, I can tell you a thing or two about being bottom end, as well as being happy in life and in work despite such a position. Most B1900 operators equal or exceed DALPA 2000 payrates on a per seat basis, which is more than can be said of you. One of the poolies lurking around here has a screenname of Kaptain Koolaid or something like that. It's hardly an insult, they seem to take it as a compliment. And it's Kamikaze.

Moving on. Let us remeber that it was ALPAs stated goal since the early days to "remove pilot pay from the competitive equation." As you all said, compensation is a large part of your competitive advantage. Setting aside some external factors, whoever can supply a commodity at the lowest cost will in turn see the greatest demand for their goods. Pilots supply labor, and of the course the cheapest supplier will see the highest volume, i.e., growth. Thus we get thrown into the boom and bust cycle that generates so much frictional unemployment and angst on these boards.

I want to have the least chance of wearing the orange apron (furlough) or starting over in mid-stream. I want to upgrade quickly, so I can fly with my favorite captain every day

Mr. Webb, you are in essence trading lower pay for your rapid advancement to the captains seat. Thats well and good for you now, but what about those hired below you? Its the ExecJet syndrome. "Upgrade in 6 months!" That is dependent on an unsustainable rate of growth. Once that growth slows you're a captain, congrats, but your FO bretheren get to reap the benefits of that lower and now stagnant pay. It's the same effect Crandalls B Scale offered. Quick advancement and a kick in the nuts to those who brought up the rear. In a perfect world we would all see about the same wage, and would all walk if offered anything less. That will never come to be, however it is a noble goal. Removing pay from the realm of competition does everybody a long term favor, not that there aren't short term gains made by the lowest bidder.

Since the "self-proclaimed Orace of the Industry" was asked how much the pilots of a 117 seat aircraft should make, here are some good numbers. I'll give you three guesses as to where they came from:

CA
Yr
1 202.80
2 204.32
3 205.99
4 207.63
5 209.29
6 210.95
7 212.61
8 214.26
9 215.91
10 217.58
11 219.26
12 220.88

FO
Yr
1 54.00
2 109.31
3 127.92
4 131.02
5 134.15
6 137.54
7 141.38
8 144.63
9 146.17
10 148.17
11 149.53
12 150.86

Now ask yourself if you couldn't take that money, bank the difference between that and Airtran numbers, and end up with enough cash to last through a furlough, put your kids through college, and have an independent retirement savings.

One example. New England has a very stable populace. People don't move in, people don't move out, and the region has seen almost no immigration in the last 75 years when compared with the rest of the country. Numerous acquaintances of mine, with no education beyond a HS diploma, and in some case without even that, make an amazing amount of money in commercial cleaning, in some cases their labor nets them in excess of $100 per hour. There are but two tenuous factors that sustain them. 1) The distate for cleaning found among the local WASP population, and 2) An utter lack of competition. Such money cannot be made in CA, TX, AZ, or FL. Hordes of immigrants humble enough to clean for a living have rapidly sapped the margin from that business.

We find ourselves in a similar situation. The phrase is cliche, we can either "race to the bottom" or hold the line.

My final point. Let us not fool ourselves that a perfect capitalistic model is what we are working with. Nothing could be farther from the truth. All kinds of external factors dilute the competitive environment, not the least of which is unionization itself. Were it not for that factor, we would literally and rapidly be reduced to the level of Federal minimum wage by an overwhelming tide of excess labor. Now let us all join together and "jack up the house," shall we?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FL,

I really apologize. I have been insulted quite a few times over this topic, and while I would have to be dead to care any less about that, I guess I saw insult when none was intended.

You are correct, you have been a gentleman, and I am sorry that I misinterpreted your post.

As to your assertion that the "race to the bottom" is a remote possibility. I submit that it is happening as we speak, and point to the attacks on every legacy carrier's contracts as evidence of this. I fear that this is only the start of it. It would not surprise me at all to see the lcc compensation packages being attacked next. I hope that I am wrong, but I fear I am not.

Thanks for the discussion. To be honest, I've been kind of sitting this one out, as most already know how I feel about the subject. Of course, I have a habit of jumping in even when I'm trying to stay out!

 

[FL717]

Re: Oracle of the Industry, I like that.

First of all, my knowledge of economics does not stem solely from a work of fiction. I incorrectly assumed that a degree in Business Admin, entrepeneurial success and failure, and a lifetime of study qualified me to BS on an internet message board, but apparently not.

Most B1900 operators equal or exceed DALPA 2000 payrates on a per seat basis, which is more than can be said of you.

And it's Kamikazee.

1. Since I obviously don't know you, I cannot/will not base anything on your background, only on your posted observations, and possibly current career choices.

2. I couldn't care less what the per seat payrates of any Beech 1900 carrier is. I make more money than ANY Beech 1900 Captain at any carrier at any year on their salary scale. Your argument is pure economic m@sturbation, and means nothing to the status of my career right now, as far as I'm concerned, in this life, on this planet.. period.

3. And its ENTREPRENEURIAL... since you've decided to start a spelling bee.

 

[FL717]

FL,

I really apologize. I have been insulted quite a few times over this topic, and while I would have to be dead to care any less about that, I guess I saw insult when none was intended.

Thanks for the discussion. To be honest, I've been kind of sitting this one out, as most already know how I feel about the subject. Of course, I have a habit of jumping in even when I'm trying to stay out!

I've taken shots at you a few times in the past. Sometimes when I'm being civil, I get shot at, but its because people are used to me shooting first. No problem. We've both been here long enough to know and understand.


I hear you about the "jumping in". You get real tired of the cheap and easy "arrogant Delta Pilot" quips , and I get tired of the "eroding the profession" quips, so I fully understand the inability to just let it go and stay on the sidelines.

Its still alot of fun though isn't it?!

 

[HA25]

V70t5:

I know that your reply was to TyWebb, but as I stated earlier, you seem to have alot to contribute and I would like to engage here. I hear (read) what you are saying and agree with some of your logic... BUT.. I have to respectfully disagree on several points. Before I get on a rant, let me add that I get rambling when people talk of LCC's "eroding the profession'. I'm sorry but that is a poor choice of words and not correct. Your reference to the great movie Catch Me if You Can is way off (IMO). People today still think airline pilots make tons of money. They have no idea. The change in perception has NOTHING to do with low cost carriers. It probably has to do with a new generation of adults that are very different than our parents and grandparents due to technology, education, and common courtesy.

There IS a vast difference between National and Major carriers.

AirTran will lose its competitive advantage if we follow the legacy carriers in total compensation packages.. period. (FlyDeltaJets is 100% correct), however...I do not believe in industry standard. I couldn't care less what your company or any other airline pays their employees. Never have. I care about what our pilots get paid.. and how our pilots are treated, and what our quality of life is. That is the key, not following some other company over a cliff. With that said, I know what underpaid is. Underpaid is $15,000 -$24,000 a year flying for an air carrier. That is not relative.. that is cold hard fact. I do not know what overpaid is. I assume its when your compant cannot survive during a business downturn without furloughs and contract concessions.

As far as the reference to some of the ex-Eastern pilots at our company. they have worked their @ss off at this company, and very few remain.. less than 5% of our 800+ pilots. We are not Teamsters, we are National Pilots Association (NPA) which is part of national CAPA, and hope we remain that way.

I appreciate your insight. Who do you work for?

FlyDeltaJets:
Its all about you...

Thanks for the courtesy of a engaging reply to my ideas.... I totally see your point about following them over the cliff... I guess I just wish that there was a industry wide, or mandated rate for a certain type of Jet, ....say $230/hr on a 717 with a 12-16 day work month (depending on seniority)... but sadly that is just a dream for now... maybe when we as pilots get frustrated enough to all join in a strike for our friends on the lower end of the scale.. that will change. This is idealism however, as we are all also individual beings with our own individual agendas and lives to live... no one wants to strike, or stage a walk off for another's airline. This may change one day, but not anytime soon.

I apologize if I confused your union affiliation (I seem to recall it was Teamsters, but then I've been away from ATL's Concourse C for a couple of years). However, I think that in the case of AirTran, they will remain in business as ATL is never going to be allowed (due to anti-trust issues) to be a 100% delta hub. So it would no kill AirTran to pay their pilots, even 30% more, however, maybe AirTrans executives and shareholders my have to share some of their wealth to make that happen, and we as pilots need to demand no less.

The company I work for, I cannot mention by name, but it is a large aviation services company with a fleet of Citation Encore, X, VII, DA2000, and A 737 & 757... we do various charter, and supplemental work, and tend to pay above averaged wages for our smaller aircraft, while the pay on the larger aircraft is no set, as most of the pilots are contract short term pilots. We pay by the day, and no hour, and all work a 7 and 7 schedule.. Day rates range from 240/day for junior FO's on the Encore, to $900/day for the larger jets like the 757. Saddly we are non-union, but I cannot complain since my class at American is not likely to be for many years, if at all.

I think that SWAPA is doing a good job in improving the LLC pay scale, but like I stated before, they really are not much different than American with regards to the domestic market these days, as they pretty much cover all the markets that American does domestically. They need to be treated like a traditional major, and I am pretty sure many of the SWA pilots working there feel the same way. The business model they use (common fleet, no hub spoke) will always provide them with an advantage that doesn't require their pilots to make less and work more to be realized.

Anyway.. I think I've said my peace, I hope I didn't offend too many, and like my signature says.. I just can't wait for some return to normalcy, which I think will happen. I don't this that we are in brave new world like all of the ATA funded "industry analysts" are saying, I think that's all just talk to feed the momentum to break down ALPA and APA contracts have evolved to levels that make airline managers uncomfortable with their labor costs... to which I say... too bad.. deal with it!

 

[HA25]

Thank you for making the point I have been laboring to make for ages. I agree with you completely.

My question is, what do you think would happen to your compensation package if the legacy carriers lower theirs to your level, which obviously seems to be the trend. You said above, you would lose your competitive advantage. Your only chance would be to reduce your package yet again. Then we would once again be attacked for our costs being too high. Where would it end? We are on a slippery slope right now, and very few people want to admit it. I'm glad you did admit it, and I'm glad you see my point, even if you didn't realize it before.

Bingo! Bullseye... this is what I call the downward spiral... we need to hold ground and not give up years of work..

I am sure that Delta, with AirTran work rules would do a lot of harm to AirTran, and other LCC's would also be harmed if UAL, CAL, AMR ETC.... went the LCC route. WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE CONCEPT OF LCC!


BTW.. I Like the tone this thread has taken, I am kinda glad we are not throwing insults around at each other (a thing we are all guilty of) and hope that we can treat what was said out of the heat of anger as water under the bridge.. Now lets lift together! For the profession, and to the benefit of all, even the FAR 135 Citation driver.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Re: Oracle of the Industry, I like that.

2. I couldn't care less what the per seat payrates of any Beech 1900 carrier is. I make more money than ANY Beech 1900 Captain at any carrier at any year on their salary scale. Your argument is pure economic m@sturbation, and means nothing to the status of my career right now, as far as I'm concerned, in this life, on this planet.. period.

No s#it you make more than a Beech pilot. I post 1000+ words and the only thing you attack is the irrelevance of a comparison which you first made in an earlier post? Can you at least admit this: LCC pay affects the pay at Legacy carriers.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I've taken shots at you a few times in the past. Sometimes when I'm being civil, I get shot at, but its because people are used to me shooting first. No problem. We've both been here long enough to know and understand.


I hear you about the "jumping in". You get real tired of the cheap and easy "arrogant Delta Pilot" quips , and I get tired of the "eroding the profession" quips, so I fully understand the inability to just let it go and stay on the sidelines.

Its still alot of fun though isn't it?!

Wow,

I didn't remember you taking shots at me (shows just how little I care), but since you said you did, I did a search. You weren't kidding.

Please allow me to correct myself. You have been anything but a gentleman.

However, it's truly no skin off my tail. I just like giving credit where it is due, and it was certainly not due you!

This thread was a bit more friendly. I prefer it. Although you are right, sometimes it is a lot of fun to take the gloves off. I just haven't allowed myself to get personal. Maybe one day, when I decide to give up this board for good, I will really let loose! Believe me, I could give people a real reason to call me an a-hole!

Until then, and despite the insults that people throw at me, I'll keep trying to be polite and stick to the issues. (which is not nearly as exciting!)

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: Re: Re: Oracle of the Industry, I like that.

Can you at least admit this: LCC pay affects the pay at Legacy carriers.

Good luck with that one. It seems pretty obvious to me, but for some, you might as well be posting that the earth is flat.

 

[pilot141]

Boy, am I glad I came back from a trip and found this thread.....

Wait, this thread has NOTHING to do with the TITLE!! It has taken on the unavoidable life of ANY thread in this forum.....I make too much, I'm somehow stealing jobs from the virtuous people at the LCCs, and I'm not productive.

Since Cardinal has done such a good job articulating the arguments supporting a PROFESSION, I will not go there. I will say that I have voted against the TA here at AA because I believe that it gives back too many years of progress in our PROFESSION. For the people here willing to work for minimal wages because it is a JOB, I understand: it is a JOB. But that is not a PROFESSION. I decided 17 years ago that I wanted to pursue this PROFESSION. I was fortunate enough to enter this PROFESSION three years ago, after years of college and years of doing a JOB for the military.

My sister is younger than me and finished law school five years ago. In her PROFESSION she already earns more than I do. I'm about to get a pay cut and a furlough shoved down my throat after 13 years in this JOB. I am doing my feeble best to convince people to not take this demeaning blow to our "PROFESSION", but too many people think of this as a JOB. Bagging my groceries and grilling my fajitas are JOBS; flying airplanes, prosecuting crimes and removing tumors are PROFESSIONS.

Respect yourself.

 

[WhiteCloud]

I guess I just wish that there was a industry wide, or mandated rate for a certain type of Jet, ....say $230/hr on a 717 with a 12-16 day work month (depending on seniority)... but sadly that is just a dream for now... maybe when we as pilots get frustrated enough to all join in a strike for our friends on the lower end of the scale.. that will change. This is idealism however, as we are all also individual beings with our own individual agendas and lives to live... no one wants to strike, or stage a walk off for another's airline. This may change one day, but not anytime soon.

This is a great idea but ALPA and friends will have to drastically change their approach. Right now all we get from ALPA is "If you work here or do that it will be DANGEROUS to your career". Just a bunch of threats and intimidation.

 

[FL717]

Okay.. here it goes and I hope you all see this. I was going to start a new thread on the other General board, but knew the people I wanted to see this would be here.

This thread was about AA layoffs. Most threads that I post on within this site have nothing to do with AirTran, me, etc. All the posts on this website that pertain to information or helpful info that I can contribute to... I do. I will help anyone I can if I can. I receive MANY Pm's and I always respond and help IF I can. (I can't do alot regarding employment.. but give info). This is a great website, and has helped me and many like me alot.

I know MANY of the people that post on this board personally.
FlyDeltaJets, Cardinal, V70T5: Wouldn't know any of you if you walked in front of me. We all end up posting, and post on threads that involve or concern us, regardless of the thread title. When we get into things, its rough because of our differing life experiences prior, but most importantly our life experiences right now. Its also tough because we all have our volume levels and they vary. There is nothing... NOTHING.. really personal, even with the barbs thrown. And WE ALL DO IT in our own way.

FDJ: I really was trying to change our tone, because quite frankly, you are a really an insightful poster,and while I feel you have taken shots at FL, and maybe others directly, I read with great interest and open mind to your posts, and wanted to put past duels to rest, in order for you to continue your contributions, whether I agree or not. I would really like to move beyond this level discussion and see what you, and others think could be done in this industry, beyond "the LCC's are ruining the industry". I am confident yours and others thinking is beyond that. I assumed you remembered my screenname, but ... my post and this post was/is an olive branch.

Cardinal: I read your large post, and I have the proofreading credit as evidence. You seem to be very well thought, and are ABSOLUTELY correct in most if not all your observations. BUT.. I disagree on an entirely different level, and will explain on another thread. Again it was a fun exchange. I didn't address the full scope because my point is not being listened too. I am going to start a new thread on the other General board, and hope that it will include many people who aren't even aware of this exchange.

If you search all of my posts on this forum, it is evident that while I have a quick keyboard, I'm not some young kid flamebaiter, etc. I really do contribute, but I have to have fun too. My volume may be louder than others, but the volume increase from normal is not markedly different from you all. Look... I even got Cardinal to curse/cuss in his post.

Peace...?

 

[HA25]

Boy, am I glad I came back from a trip and found this thread.....

Wait, this thread has NOTHING to do with the TITLE!! It has taken on the unavoidable life of ANY thread in this forum.....I make too much, I'm somehow stealing jobs from the virtuous people at the LCCs, and I'm not productive.

Since Cardinal has done such a good job articulating the arguments supporting a PROFESSION, I will not go there. I will say that I have voted against the TA here at AA because I believe that it gives back too many years of progress in our PROFESSION. For the people here willing to work for minimal wages because it is a JOB, I understand: it is a JOB. But that is not a PROFESSION. I decided 17 years ago that I wanted to pursue this PROFESSION. I was fortunate enough to enter this PROFESSION three years ago, after years of college and years of doing a JOB for the military.

My sister is younger than me and finished law school five years ago. In her PROFESSION she already earns more than I do. I'm about to get a pay cut and a furlough shoved down my throat after 13 years in this JOB. I am doing my feeble best to convince people to not take this demeaning blow to our "PROFESSION", but too many people think of this as a JOB. Bagging my groceries and grilling my fajitas are JOBS; flying airplanes, prosecuting crimes and removing tumors are PROFESSIONS.

Respect yourself.

hear hear!

I also have a couple of good friend on the senior end of the payscale and they too are a "no" vote. I would rather bankrupt every airline in this country than roll back the profession to the early 90's in one blow... and if they want a pay cut, then I want a snap back.