AA to furlough 178 more

[stlflyguy]

Calling TWA pilots new hires is a joke. New hires don't come with aircraft.

stlflyguy

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

That is not the point nor is it what the arbitrator meant by his ruling. The basic logic of his ruling is that you cannot create positions and then bypass Letter 3 by placing junior pilots on the seniority list in those positions. Any other ruling would have negated the prior contractual obligations as well as seniority.

 

[pipejockey]

Calling TWA pilots new hires is a joke. New hires don't come with aircraft.

stlflyguy

For all you guys involved in this supp W letter 3 stuff, let me ask you this; would things have worked out a lot better if the healthy airlines back in 2000-2001 just let TWA die via Chapter 7, because thats where they were ultimately headed, and just have picked up the TWA assets and routes in a fire sale? Then there wouldn't be all this fuss about whether they should have been considered a new hire or not. It would then be quite clear! AA must be kicking themselves over that purchase.

 

[ultrarunner]

Why doesn't AMR just bag the entire AE operation, sell it off, then put out the feed for bid?

 

[GuppyWN]

Woulda coulda shoulda. It was a great deal....... right up until 9/11 and the ensuing dismantling of commercial aviation.

Gup

 

[ultrarunner]

For all you guys involved in this supp W letter 3 stuff, let me ask you this; would things have worked out a lot better if the healthy airlines back in 2000-2001 just let TWA die via Chapter 7, because thats where they were ultimately headed, and just have picked up the TWA assets and routes in a fire sale? Then there wouldn't be all this fuss about whether they should have been considered a new hire or not. It would then be quite clear! AA must be kicking themselves over that purchase.

I would have been better. Why everyone gets a big hard-on and not just go in and pick up the pieces in liquidation, is beyond me. I'm sure AMR won't do it again.

At the time, they obviously wanted it ALL. But I have no doubt they could have gotten just the pieces they wanted at the Chapter 7 hearing since they had the money.

 

[TWA Dude]

For all you guys involved in this supp W letter 3 stuff, let me ask you this; would things have worked out a lot better if the healthy airlines back in 2000-2001 just let TWA die via Chapter 7, because thats where they were ultimately headed, and just have picked up the TWA assets and routes in a fire sale?

If you were actually smart enough to predict the exact moment of an airline's death you'd be far too wealthy to be just an airline pilot. TWA's financial problems notwithstanding it's pure speculation to say if or how soon it would've liquidated.

AA must be kicking themselves over that purchase.

No, they're just kicking their pilots.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

That is not the point nor is it what the arbitrator meant by his ruling. The basic logic of his ruling is that you cannot create positions and then bypass Letter 3 by placing junior pilots on the seniority list in those positions. Any other ruling would have negated the prior contractual obligations as well as seniority.

Apparently contractual obligations are not important to the Eaglets when it isn't in their favor, or more than 800 furloughed AMERICAN AIRLINES pilots would have been allowed to flow back to Eagle.

 

[Draginass]

Why doesn't AMR just bag the entire AE operation, sell it off, then put out the feed for bid?

1. Nobody wants to buy an airline consisting mostly of obsolete aircraft (50 seat RJs).

2. Farming out feed is restricted by the AA pilots' scope provisions.

3. Regardless of the cost, management is determined to use AE against the AA pilots.

 

[Draginass]

Apparently contractual obligations are not important to the Eaglets when it isn't in their favor, or more than 800 furloughed AMERICAN AIRLINES pilots would have been allowed to flow back to Eagle.

The arbitration decision did not take into account the intent of the language. The idiot that decided this weasel-worded, parsed, and tortured the interpretation to say that some TWA pilots were "new hires" just because that hadn't been technically moved to the AA certificate. It's patently absurd because these pilots did not go through a hiring process and were being paid by AA all along.

With regards to the AE pilots, it might very well turn out to be a "be careful what you wish for" deal.

 

[rider850]

Aa

For all you guys involved in this supp W letter 3 stuff, let me ask you this; would things have worked out a lot better if the healthy airlines back in 2000-2001 just let TWA die via Chapter 7, because thats where they were ultimately headed, and just have picked up the TWA assets and routes in a fire sale? Then there wouldn't be all this fuss about whether they should have been considered a new hire or not. It would then be quite clear! AA must be kicking themselves over that purchase.

Yes,it would have worked out better. I wouldn't have a senoirity number at AA for the past 8.5 years. It is like the kiss of death.
VS Chapter 7. When did you get your crystal ball out. That's where they were ultimately heading? You mean like all the legacy airlines? Do you know there were other options for TWA. Who's to say,it wouldn't have gone the other way,you? OK PATZER.

 

[75M]

I always found it odd that an Airline that declared bankruptcy on a Sunday and was purchased out of bankruptcy later that same Sunday never:

- Went to the employees for concessions,
- Attempted to renegotiate aircraft leases, or
- Attempted to renegotiated property/facility leases

It just went straight into BK with DIP financing and a purchase agreement already in place. A purchase agreement that had language about "Fair and Equitable" seniority integration. Oh, and for the "What's fair for for me, might not be fair for you" crowd, that is a ridiculous rationalization that has nothing to do with fairness.

As far as the financial performance of TWA, from 1996 to 2001, the long term debt was reduced from $1.5B to $500M, that's a reduction of one billion dollars. Not too bad by today's standards.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

good observation...

I always found it odd that an Airline that declared bankruptcy on a Sunday and was purchased out of bankruptcy later that same Sunday never:

- Went to the employees for concessions,
- Attempted to renegotiate aircraft leases, or
- Attempted to renegotiated property/facility leases

It just went straight into BK with DIP financing and a purchase agreement already in place. A purchase agreement that had language about "Fair and Equitable" seniority integration. Oh, and for the "What's fair for for me, might not be fair for you" crowd, that is a ridiculous rationalization that has nothing to do with fairness.

As far as the financial performance of TWA, from 1996 to 2001, the long term debt was reduced from $1.5B to $500M, that's a reduction of one billion dollars. Not too bad by today's standards.

....This is right from the playbook of AMR when they purchased Air Virginia. AMR asked VA to declared BK. AMR purchased the operation already in the AE coclors for pennies on the dollar and there was no disruptio9n in air service, no concessions or restructuring.

TWA declared BK at the request of AMR. It was part of the condition of the deal.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Yeah......

Woulda coulda what he said!shoulda. It was a great deal....... right up until 9/11 and the ensuing dismantling of commercial aviation.

Gup

....What he said!

 

[pipejockey]

Apparently contractual obligations are not important to the Eaglets when it isn't in their favor, or more than 800 furloughed AMERICAN AIRLINES pilots would have been allowed to flow back to Eagle.

The flow through to AA never adversely affected AA pilots but 800 AA pilots flowing back to Eagle would cause Eagle FO's with years on the job to be furloughed so an AA new-hire could take a CA seat Eagle. Not to mention the 800 CA's that would have had their pay cut in half to make room for AA new hires, many of which had absolutely no airline PIC time. Do you think that is any where within the realm of reasonable? And even as it stands, far more AA pilots made out great in the flow back(about 400), as opposed to the Eagle pilots that actually flowed through(about 150).

 

[pipejockey]

Yes,it would have worked out better. I wouldn't have a senoirity number at AA for the past 8.5 years. It is like the kiss of death.
VS Chapter 7. When did you get your crystal ball out. That's where they were ultimately heading? You mean like all the legacy airlines? Do you know there were other options for TWA. Who's to say,it wouldn't have gone the other way,you? OK PATZER.

Yeah, it worked out better for the all the Eagle pilots who had seniority numbers at AA, and were fulfilling their seat lock as Eagle RJ CA when TWA was acquired, who instead of being AA pilots now, are still Eagle pilots and will remain Eagle pilots due to age issues.
BTW, my chess playing is just fine, thanks!!

 

[pipejockey]

As far as the financial performance of TWA, from 1996 to 2001, the long term debt was reduced from $1.5B to $500M, that's a reduction of one billion dollars. Not too bad by today's standards.

And compared to the other airlines at the time, it stunk! Why are you comparing apples to oranges? 1996- Sep.2001 was a time of record profits for some airlines. Didn't AA or UAL actually post a one year profit of over 1 billion around that time?

 

[75M]

Okay, first of all, AMR announced the acquisition of TWA in January of 2001, not September. By September, just about everybody was starting to bleed, but that's another story. Secondly, an airline that chose to paydown a billion in debt incurred by a corporate raider over the previous ten years cannot be compared to AMR or UAL during the same time period. The point is, that the financial performance of TWA during that time frame did not put the airline in the dire straits that so many think that it was. Had BK not been a condition of the AMR purchase agreement, there were still options available for the TWA BOD to explore.

And as far as the speculation as to whether TWA would have survived after 9/11, you probably didn't know that TWA was the first airline to operate at 100% schedule completion after 9/11 (i.e., not a lot of excess capacity to reduce) or that the Air Transport Stabilization Board would have infused an airline of that size with over $400M in cash. Again, no crystal ball, but I think the demise of TWA was not as certain as some might like to think.

All of that aside, the bottom line is that the profitability of an airline is mostly the result of the decisions made by management over a period of time. The pilots have a limited impact on the profitability of an airline. A pilot who flies for a profitable airline, is no better or no worse than a pilot who flies for an airline that is being driven into the dirt by a poor management team. Fortunes change very quickly in this business, therefore, it's a dangerous policy to penalize a labor group for poor management decisions.

 

[pipejockey]

it's a dangerous policy to penalize a labor group for poor management decisions.

On that, we can agree!!

 

[Vastly Underemp]

The flow through to AA never adversely affected AA pilots but 800 AA pilots flowing back to Eagle would cause Eagle FO's with years on the job to be furloughed so an AA new-hire could take a CA seat Eagle. Not to mention the 800 CA's that would have had their pay cut in half to make room for AA new hires, many of which had absolutely no airline PIC time. Do you think that is any where within the realm of reasonable? And even as it stands, far more AA pilots made out great in the flow back(about 400), as opposed to the Eagle pilots that actually flowed through(about 150).

Eagle MEC signed the agreement, including the unlimited flowback provision, and when it didn't go their way they sued to have it overturned. You either honor your contracts or you don't. I hope they're enjoying their RJs cause they'll never see anything bigger.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Eagle MEC signed the agreement, including the unlimited flowback provision, and when it didn't go their way they sued to have it overturned. You either honor your contracts or you don't. I hope they're enjoying their RJs cause they'll never see anything bigger.

Funny, I suggest you study a little more then you can join in on this discussion at an adult level. There never was an unlimited flowback provision.


Furlough Protection at AMR Eagle, Inc. for Pilots Furloughed from AA.
A. A pilot furloughed from AA may displace a CJ Captain at an AMR Eagle,
Inc. carrier provided that the number of CJ Captain positions available to
furloughed AA pilots will be limited to the total number of CJ Captain
positions at AMR Eagle, Inc. less the number of Eagle Rights CJ
Captains.
B. A furloughed AA pilot may displace
1. A CJ Captain, other than an Eagle Rights CJ Captain, who has not
been awarded a seniority number at AA, in reverse order of AMR
Eagle, Inc. seniority; and then
2. A CJ Captain who has accepted a position on the AA Pilots
Seniority List pursuant to Paragraph III.B. above, or a CJ Captain
who was previously furloughed from AA, in reverse order of AA
seniority.
C. If no CJ Captain position at AMR Eagle, Inc. is available for a furloughed
AA pilot, such pilot shall not have any further displacement rights at AMR
Eagle, Inc. and shall be furloughed as an AA pilot, with the exception that
a furloughed AA pilot who is displaced from CJ Captain status may elect
either of the following options:
1. Such pilot may use seniority accrued at AMR Eagle, Inc. to bid a
vacancy or displace at such carrier in accordance with the
applicable collective bargaining agreement provided that no AMR
Eagle, Inc. pilot on the current Eagle seniority list will be furloughed
as a result of this provision consistent with Paragraph IV.K. below;
or
2. Such pilot may relinquish his position at the AMR Eagle, Inc. carrier
and will receive furlough pay due under the Basic Agreement
between AA. and the Allied Pilots Association ("APA"). The rights
and obligations of a furloughed AA pilot who relinquishes a position
at AMR Eagle, Inc. will be the same as any other furloughed AA
pilot, except that such pilot shall have a right of recall for ten years
to any vacant CJ Captain position in the reverse order of
displacement specified in Paragraph IV.B. above.
3. When a CJ Captain who has been furloughed under Paragraph
IV.C.2. above is offered, by written notice from AMR Eagle, Inc., the
opportunity to return to duty as a CJ Captain and such pilot elects,
by written notice to AMR Eagle, Inc., not to return to duty, such pilot
forfeits the right of recall to AMR Eagle, Inc. Such pilot shall
maintain the seniority right of preference for recall to AA under the
terms of the Basic Agreement between AA and APA.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Eagle MEC signed the agreement, including the unlimited flowback provision, and when it didn't go their way they sued to have it overturned. You either honor your contracts or you don't. I hope they're enjoying their RJs cause they'll never see anything bigger.

On another note, I wouldn't jinx the AA pilots in having the AA FA's strike and AMR go chapter 11. I'm afraid you would be regretting that comment for many years when Eagle is flying the 100 seaters.

 

[Full of LUV]

Uh...yeah....

The flow through to AA never adversely affected AA pilots but 800 AA pilots flowing back to Eagle would cause Eagle FO's with years on the job to be furloughed so an AA new-hire could take a CA seat Eagle. Not to mention the 800 CA's that would have had their pay cut in half to make room for AA new hires, many of which had absolutely no airline PIC time. Do you think that is any where within the realm of reasonable? And even as it stands, far more AA pilots made out great in the flow back(about 400), as opposed to the Eagle pilots that actually flowed through(about 150).

What about the THOUSANDS of pilot jobs at AA that were moved to the Eagle operation with the parking of Folker and 727 jets..... Where is the recognition that those Eagle Captains and FO's only have their jobs on the backs of the bottom third of the AA list?

 

[chignutsak]

What about the THOUSANDS of pilot jobs at AA that were moved to the Eagle operation with the parking of Folker and 727 jets..... Where is the recognition that those Eagle Captains and FO's only have their jobs on the backs of the bottom third of the AA list?

Eagle, and any other regional for that matter, is flying pointy-nose jets over x number of seats because mainline pilots allowed it to happen. Obviously the specifics of what happened vary from airline to airline, but that is the bottom line. To blame the regional pilots for this decision is absurd. Management took what mainline unions granted them, and ran with it.

 

[FlickerFade]

Eagle, and any other regional for that matter, is flying pointy-nose jets over x number of seats because mainline pilots allowed it to happen. Obviously the specifics of what happened vary from airline to airline, but that is the bottom line. To blame the regional pilots for this decision is absurd. Management took what mainline unions granted them, and ran with it.

Exactly! AA pilots could have had all of that jet flying, but APA wouldn't sign off on it. They instead went with the hard core scope argument and lost a lot of AA pilot positions because of it. Just as the current APA leadership has overstepped, the guys in 1999 were too short-sighted. Those rj's would have paid less that the Fokkers and the MD-80's, but would have been more than what Eagle pays its pilots.

 

[rider850]

Sad,how we go from furloughing 178 more to infighting between mainline and the regional.
Anyone thinking that someone else is getting a wind-fall is highly mistaken.

 

[relief tube]

Well Eagle is hiring and getting 22 more CRJ-700s.... is this related?

Bad news either way.....there are plenty of CFI's frothing at the mouth to get hired at AE and fly that "big" plane..... not knowing or caring where the job came from.

god why are there still people trying to get into this industry?

 

[Full of LUV]

Exactly! AA pilots could have had all of that jet flying, but APA wouldn't sign off on it. They instead went with the hard core scope argument and lost a lot of AA pilot positions because of it. Just as the current APA leadership has overstepped, the guys in 1999 were too short-sighted. Those rj's would have paid less that the Fokkers and the MD-80's, but would have been more than what Eagle pays its pilots.

My point was answering the Eaglet who wanted us to cry him a river on how the poor Eagle Captains felt getting pushed back with the flowbacks from AA, and I was commenting that their jobs were there because of the AA in the first place.

Also, the main reason the "RJ" proliferates is because it could be operated at "regional" wages. If it paid close to mainline wages, they would start parking them.

 

[XTW]

Word on the street, new furlough mitigation letter passed at APA today and is at Centerpork to be signed. Details later. We'll see.


X

 

[FlickerFade]

My point was answering the Eaglet who wanted us to cry him a river on how the poor Eagle Captains felt getting pushed back with the flowbacks from AA, and I was commenting that their jobs were there because of the AA in the first place.

Also, the main reason the "RJ" proliferates is because it could be operated at "regional" wages. If it paid close to mainline wages, they would start parking them.

Not quite.

Add up the profit that the regional carriers take before they pay their pilots. Yes, they pay less than mainline equipment, but not as little as they do now at regionals. Carriers like AA and UA pay a premium to outsource the flying. That premium could have been kept in house. And the jobs could have been kept at AA, etc.