AA to furlough 178 more

[pipejockey]

After all, without those concessions, there wouldn't be an AMR, DAL, CAL, UAL or USAir to...umm...not be working for???

Really? Or perhaps capacity would have been adjusted accordingly. When any other business cannot earn the revenue necessary to cover the expense of producing the product or service they purchase, and pay their employee's an appropriate wage, they reduce the supply of said produst or service until a fair price is attained. $100-$300 roundtrip air fare aint cuttin it! It's time to restrict new entrants into this industry. Did we need Skypuss? Thankfully their were an abysmal failure. Do we need Virgin America, Allegiant, Directair etc?

 

[pipejockey]

PJ, I am a 12y captain.........and regarding the what I said about 2002 AA hiring into mainline instead of bottom, I forgot to mention that APA wanted a loop hole where MILITARY BUDDIES would go to mainline , bypassing the Rj route. Newbies to rj's....also senior AE captains would NEVER or expect DOH at AA, rather some type of integration.

Perhaps that wouldn't be that hard to accept if it is what's needed to get everybody on one seniority list. And as I said, if the military cry babies who feel they are too good to fly an rj are allowed to go to what is considered mainline equipment, just restrict them to what they can hold, AFTER they are hired into the MD80, or 737. It would basically allow them the awful "embarrassment" of being seen operating an aircraft with less than 100 seats, but the current AE guys and civilian newhires would be able to upgrade to larger aircraft or the left seat as their seniority can hold.

Like I said, sometimes you have to eat crow for the betterment of the majority. Pride gets you nowhere.

 

[Flyby1206]

Perhaps that wouldn't be that hard to accept if it is what's needed to get everybody on one seniority list. And as I said, if the military cry babies who feel they are too good to fly an rj are allowed to go to what is considered mainline equipment, just restrict them to what they can hold, AFTER they are hired into the MD80, or 737. It would basically allow them the awful "embarrassment" of being seen operating an aircraft with less than 100 seats, but the current AE guys and civilian newhires would be able to upgrade to larger aircraft or the left seat as their seniority can hold.

Like I said, sometimes you have to eat crow for the betterment of the majority. Pride gets you nowhere.

I'd gladly stay at Eagle while a mil guy goes directly to the MD80 as long as my seniority number is above his on the master list. The senior folks at Eagle have been burned by APA in the past and aren't willing to forgive and forget. They are under the assumption that we would be doing much better as a stand alone carrier fending for ourselves (which I find hard to believe). Getting all AMR flying on one list should be a priority for the work group AND company. Eliminating scope issues completely would give us the flexibility our competitors dont have.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

I'd gladly stay at Eagle while a mil guy goes directly to the MD80 as long as my seniority number is above his on the master list. The senior folks at Eagle have been burned by APA in the past and aren't willing to forgive and forget. They are under the assumption that we would be doing much better as a stand alone carrier fending for ourselves (which I find hard to believe). Getting all AMR flying on one list should be a priority for the work group AND company. Eliminating scope issues completely would give us the flexibility our competitors dont have.

Your "senior folks" at AE can cry me a river.

Maybe they can provide an extensive list of flying that has been lost by AE and given to the AA pilots. The AE senior guys have been the benefactors of the clueless APA majority that gave AE the jets that gutted the AA system.

I don't harbor any illusions that the relationship between both groups has been harmonious, but let's be a little accurate as to who took it in the shorts and who merely had their feelings hurt with name calling.

 

[Flyby1206]

Your "senior folks" at AE can cry me a river.

Maybe they can provide an extensive list of flying that has been lost by AE and given to the AA pilots. The AE senior guys have been the benefactors of the clueless APA majority that gave AE the jets that gutted the AA system.

I don't harbor any illusions that the relationship between both groups has been harmonious, but let's be a little accurate as to who took it in the shorts and who merely had their feelings hurt with name calling.

Hey I agree, and wish everyone on both sides could get together and sing kum-bah-yaa around the campfire. Nobody has been hit harder than the guys on furlough from AA (8-9 years on the street now?) so where do we go from here? Can either side wash away the bad blood and start over?

 

[Vastly Underemp]

The Co paves the way for AE flowthrus with minimum hassle by furloughing 200 AA pilots.

200 TWA pilots.....big difference in the eyes of AMR.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Your "senior folks" at AE can cry me a river.

Maybe they can provide an extensive list of flying that has been lost by AE and given to the AA pilots. The AE senior guys have been the benefactors of the clueless APA majority that gave AE the jets that gutted the AA system.

I don't harbor any illusions that the relationship between both groups has been harmonious, but let's be a little accurate as to who took it in the shorts and who merely had their feelings hurt with name calling.

Don't you realize that every contract APA shoots themselves in the foot by restricting the feed. If APA wasn't so shortsighted, AMR would be stronger today with a better feed system. The more passengers the feed brings AA, the more AA can grow. APA needs to work with ALPA and bring the two lists together. Get over this us and them stupid mentality and work on making this a better profession.

 

[jetjam619]

Your "senior folks" at AE can cry me a river.

Maybe they can provide an extensive list of flying that has been lost by AE and given to the AA pilots. The AE senior guys have been the benefactors of the clueless APA majority that gave AE the jets that gutted the AA system.

I don't harbor any illusions that the relationship between both groups has been harmonious, but let's be a little accurate as to who took it in the shorts and who merely had their feelings hurt with name calling.

Do you mean the AE jets that provided 400-600 AA furloughs with jet captain jobs for 4 years instead of hitting the streets???
YOU MEAN THOSE JETS???

As you said, "APA gave AE jets"

APA has ALWAYS been and continue to be there own worst enemy.

 

[aa73]

200 TWA pilots.....big difference in the eyes of AMR.

If the bottom 200 pilots would have been native AA, they still would have gotten furloughed. It is not about AA or TWA, it is about junior AA pilots being replaced with more senior AE flowthroughs due to the arbitration.

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

If the bottom 200 pilots would have been native AA, they still would have gotten furloughed. It is not about AA or TWA, it is about junior AA pilots being replaced with more senior AE flowthroughs due to the arbitration.

So your saying it's about seniority order?

 

[aa73]

According to the arbitrator, it will be, if he rules in favor of AE ALPA.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Don't you realize that every contract APA shoots themselves in the foot by restricting the feed. If APA wasn't so shortsighted, AMR would be stronger today with a better feed system. The more passengers the feed brings AA, the more AA can grow. APA needs to work with ALPA and bring the two lists together. Get over this us and them stupid mentality and work on making this a better profession.

Put down the AMR crack pipe and educate yourself about what the intention of "feed" was for the original AE exception to the APA contract. Feed was intended to be passengers from smaller cities that couldn't justify a larger aircraft. The Saabs, Jetstreams, ATR's, SD360's were all self limiting and although they took over some city pairs, they had their limitations.

The jets were game changers that allowed longer segments that were historically mainline city pairs. Like anything new, the smart guys at APA figured out the threat hence the "all jets" stance in 1996. It wasn't the size, it was the capability of the aircraft, especially the 70 seaters which should have never gone to AE. The idiot majority at APA were too dense to realize this and dropped the ball with the 1997 contract. At that time, only Comair (a privately owned carrier) had about 40 CRJ's. The rest of the industry had a few BA146's and a couple of Fokkers. We could have set the mark but didn't. NWA folded on "all jets" not long afterwards and the rest is history.

"Feed" isn't every former mainline city pair at ORD that's now AE. "Feed" isn't places like PIT-DFW-ABI. What used to be a mainline AA crew with a newhire looking at $250K in today's dollars is now a 250 hour idiot kid that thinks $25K is a livable wage.

50 seats was once the line of discussion. Now it's 100-130, and clueless fools even show up on this board to describe this as "feed".

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Put down the AMR crack pipe and educate yourself about what the intention of "feed" was for the original AE exception to the APA contract. Feed was intended to be passengers from smaller cities that couldn't justify a larger aircraft. The Saabs, Jetstreams, ATR's, SD360's were all self limiting and although they took over some city pairs, they had their limitations.

FYI, Eagle's original scope was unlimited 70 seat or less of any equipment type and no weight restriction.

For years APA has used Eagle's scope restrictions as ways to gain contract improvements. That is where they have continued to shoot themselves in the foot. They limit the companies ability to compete and they continue to give out flying to Eagle and other feeders. While they gain something in their contract that they wouldn't have gotten if they didn't relax scope. This was a short sighted approach. APA is now worst off and AMR is severely restricted in it's ability to compete. The only remedy I can see is to bring Eagle into a common seniority list and give the company a relax scope using pilots on the master list. Limit the company to using pilots on the master list. Don't let non-owned feeders grow into the problem we have now. APA still has some leverage unless it is loss in bankruptcy court. They should use it while ALPA will work with them. The time is right. Give AMR the opportunity to oder the 90 seat RJ's to compete. Bring guys off furlough into the openings and build a stronger company. I know for a fact that Eagle ALPA has a plan that would bring both groups together and nobody loses seniority.

 

[Flybet3]

Are they off their freaking meds? Why put up with the BS to leave in 3 more years with a few bucks more.

Like I've said before, pilots can sometimes be no different than those greedy f***s we've known and worked for.... AIRLINE CEOs.

 

[FO 4 Life]

During the talks between AA and AE, I believe it was a staple to the bottom with DOH for furlough, and AA couldn't bid down. The hiring into mainline was indeed a sticking point.

As far as some senior AE pilots being burned by the APA, when there were 4 Eagles, some were once represented by the APA. I'm sure there is some truth to that.

 

[spacecadet1]

Don't shoot the messenger here, but expect massive downsizing in the next few months. Possible pre-packaged BK. The additional expected furloughs may be mitigated by a mass exodous of those getting close to 60 or those past 60. Word passed on to me by someone connected at the very highest levels in aircraft financing.

 

[rider850]

aa

Nothing would surprise me at this point.

 

[Wingman10]

Don't shoot the messenger here, but expect massive downsizing in the next few months. Possible pre-packaged BK. The additional expected furloughs may be mitigated by a mass exodous of those getting close to 60 or those past 60. Word passed on to me by someone connected at the very highest levels in aircraft financing.

Could you elaborate on this topic? What time frame?
What is meant by a PRE-packaged BK?

 

[AceOnTheRiver]

Sounds more like a comment from somebody junior hoping to get a scare rumor going in hopes some senior guys retire early.

 

[shroomwell]

Or prudent business management, for once, by AMR executives.