AA Recalls

[Vastly Underemp]

simav8r....ygbsm

 

[FLYnMONKEYS]

Sometimes I think AA did us a favor. AA is kind of like a really hot chick with the crabs. You don't know what you have until you get into bed with them. The quicker you get out of bed with them the quicker you stop itching.

 

[aa73]

Sometimes I think AA did us a favor. AA is kind of like a really hot chick with the crabs. You don't know what you have until you get into bed with them. The quicker you get out of bed with them the quicker you stop itching.

LOL, i'm diggin' that!

 

[simav8r]

simav8r....ygbsm

About what????

 

[IronWalt]

I'm still not impressed.

 

[frog_flyer]

Sometimes I think AA did us a favor. AA is kind of like a really hot chick with the crabs. You don't know what you have until you get into bed with them. The quicker you get out of bed with them the quicker you stop itching.

what are the 'bald' airlines?

 

[Vastly Underemp]

SimAV8R

Can you really sit there and say that the AA pilot group had no say in how the integration went?????? I thought a union was a democratic organization, and the action of the leadership represented the mandate of the masses. Are you say ing that when Ed White said "We f**ked you because we could" that he was acting against his constituants' wishes? Are you trying to tell me that specifically writing (some of) the TWA pilots OUT of the flowback agreement was met with horror and disbelief by the rank and file of the APA? Or how about the time when a 777 Captain made me, MD-80 FO and a real threat to his position, ride in a separate hotel van because HIS contract said HE didn't have to share a van with any OTHER airline (and yes, this was post-integration).

That's YGTBSM what

 

[aa73]

SimAV8R

Can you really sit there and say that the AA pilot group had no say in how the integration went?????? I thought a union was a democratic organization, and the action of the leadership represented the mandate of the masses. Are you say ing that when Ed White said "We f**ked you because we could" that he was acting against his constituants' wishes? Are you trying to tell me that specifically writing (some of) the TWA pilots OUT of the flowback agreement was met with horror and disbelief by the rank and file of the APA? Or how about the time when a 777 Captain made me, MD-80 FO and a real threat to his position, ride in a separate hotel van because HIS contract said HE didn't have to share a van with any OTHER airline (and yes, this was post-integration).

That's YGTBSM what

Underemp, I don't agree with how the integration went either. But you are assuming two things here:

- We were kept informed as the integration came to a close (we weren't - in fact, they didn't send us a copy of the integration until it was already signed - not to mention the fact that the details of the integration were changing weekly as negotiations broke down), and

- Even if we would have recalled Ed White (which I would have supported because of his actions), we would have just gotten some different schmuck that would have screwed you guys even more than what happened.

So, to put it clearly, we the rank and file of AA were basically witnesses to a screw job that would have gone down the same, or even worse, with anyone else at the APA leadership level. Believe me, I would have done it differently had I been in charge. Something along the lines of letting it go to arbitration.

v/r,
73

 

[simav8r]

SimAV8R

Can you really sit there and say that the AA pilot group had no say in how the integration went?????? I thought a union was a democratic organization, and the action of the leadership represented the mandate of the masses. Are you say ing that when Ed White said "We f**ked you because we could" that he was acting against his constituants' wishes? Are you trying to tell me that specifically writing (some of) the TWA pilots OUT of the flowback agreement was met with horror and disbelief by the rank and file of the APA? Or how about the time when a 777 Captain made me, MD-80 FO and a real threat to his position, ride in a separate hotel van because HIS contract said HE didn't have to share a van with any OTHER airline (and yes, this was post-integration).

That's YGTBSM what

Dude,

I can't speak for every moron that was on the property before or after the integration, merger, acquisition, or whatever. I can tell you for a fact that I was never asked what my view on any part of it was. I can also tell you that after getting booted out of my base to STL leading up to and including my last year with AA, I had my share of evil-eye/dirty looks/crummy treatment from TWA flight attendants, gate agents, red shirt wearing rampers, and a-hole captains that had crossed over to the "dark side."

I'm not saying what they did was right, nobody junior to about a 1985 hire date went unaffected in some way shape or form. So direct your anger somewhere else.

 

[PHX767]

There was - and probably still is some animosity on both sides. It's still stupid.

I spent a lot of nights as the only native AA on the employee bus when I was first assigned to the SLT base getting an earful from angry, bitter guys and gals. My standard line became, "It's all my fault. I did this to you. Please vent your spleen all you want to on this bus. When we get off at the other end, that invitation is over and we will have to deal with it in a different manner."

There are a-holes on both sides, let them argue and bitch. Life's too short for me to.

 

[pkober]

To all my TWA brethren. As a AA captain once wrote on another message board during the "integration"

"Just be happy that you are being furloughed from the greatest airline in the world." LOL.

PHX767,

During my three + years of furlough I would have loved to be in the position to get an earfull from some "bitter" employees while still being employed. Enjoy what you have because alot of STL pilots, Captains and F/O's, are still looking for work.

Good Luck.

CLAMBAKE

 

[AA717driver]

Off topic, but I have more of a problem with the OZ guys who are lying about how their integration with TWA was handled in order to justify the AA integration.

They got DOH and only 100 or so got furloughed for a year or two by Icahn as punishment. The TWA guys who did the OZ integration are long since retired, the OZ guys are in the CA seat of 767's and people who weren't even hired when the OZ merger happened have taken the hit.

And many of the OZ guys STILL tell their native FO's how bad they had it... TC

 

[aa73]

They got DOH and only 100 or so got furloughed for a year or two by Icahn as punishment.

Dang, who would've thought that even with DOH, you can still get furloughed. That blows....

 

[PHX767]

PHX767,

During my three + years of furlough I would have loved to be in the position to get an earfull from some "bitter" employees while still being employed. Enjoy what you have because alot of STL pilots, Captains and F/O's, are still looking for work.
Good Luck.
CLAMBAKE

Thanks for the good wishes.

I should have clarified in my earlier post - When all this was going on at SLT (for me) STL (for you) I was about 2 months away from getting furloughed myself! That's what made it so wierd. I told some of them, look we are going to be in the same unemployment line! Why are you yelling at me?



PHX
Furloughed Nov '01 - May '02, Aug '03 - infinity

 

[pkober]

I don't mean any ill wishes. I try not to get involved in TWA/AA threads, though I do. It's hard not to, but whats done is done.

No matter what there will always be ill will between the two groups. I saw it at TWA with the OZ people. The best one can do is put yourself in the shoes of the losing group. It's dog eat dog. We were the ones eaten.

Life goes on. I hope my TWA bro's (pilot's and F/A's) all find work soon.

CLAMBAKE

 

[AAslag]

73,

The 100 or so that got furloughed were hired in 1986. The merger occured in 1986. Therefore they were the most junior pilots on the property, even with date of hire. Since I was hired in 1988 (Nov. 2000 by AA integration) they are all senior to me.

Oddly enough, a few of the most vocal OZ historical revisionist were only on the property a few months. They will have spent the majority of their career at TWA.

I had an interview scheduled at OZ in 86 but it was cancelled. I would love to have their deal.

 

[aa73]

73,

The 100 or so that got furloughed were hired in 1986. The merger occured in 1986. Therefore they were the most junior pilots on the property, even with date of hire. Since I was hired in 1988 (Nov. 2000 by AA integration) they are all senior to me.

Oddly enough, a few of the most vocal OZ historical revisionist were only on the property a few months. They will have spent the majority of their career at TWA.

I had an interview scheduled at OZ in 86 but it was cancelled. I would love to have their deal.

I see... for some reason I thought they were furloughed out of seniority. Thanks for clearing it up.

Re: getting the OZ deal. Who wouldn't want DOH in any merger, right? I'm guessing the AWA pilots wouldn't fair too well with DOH, either. But at least it will go to arbitration, which is what we should have done.

regards,
73

 

[AAslag]

I see... for some reason I thought they were furloughed out of seniority. Thanks for clearing it up.

Re: getting the OZ deal. Who wouldn't want DOH in any merger, right? I'm guessing the AWA pilots wouldn't fair too well with DOH, either. But at least it will go to arbitration, which is what we should have done.

regards,
73

Quite right, a straight DOH would not be a good deal for the AWA folks. As I have said before, I did not expect to get DOH, but I REALLY did not expect to lose my job either, and I hope you do not lose yours. It can get bloody ugly here on the outside looking in. I for one would have been happy to at least hang on in the FE seat, yet, I did not take the flowback to AE. Possibly a financial mistake. The reasons are my own.

In respect to the OZ integration, and my previous post. I do know that there were TWA and OZ pilots furloughed during that time frame. I believe that the seniority lists were not merged at that time, and quite possibly resembled the pre-merged AA/TWA downsizing. In that an equal number of from each list were eliminated. Like AA717 said, it was Icahn spite that started it.

Nevertheless it's been 20 years and a minority of pilots from both sides are still frothing at the mouth. In 20 years (7 years after my mandatory retirement) will the animosity between our two groups diminish?

respectfully
slag

 

[PHX767]

Slag,

I think those that are going to get over it - are over it, and have moved on. Those that haven't - won't.

Picture this: A couple of retired pilots, an AA guy and a TW guy in the nursing home in their wheelchairs yelling at each other.... "Sky Nazi!" "TW scum!"

Ahhhh....

I guess it's like the NWA guys and Republic. Self perpetuating misery.

 

[AAslag]

Slag,

I think those that are going to get over it - are over it, and have moved on. Those that haven't - won't.

Picture this: A couple of retired pilots, an AA guy and a TW guy in the nursing home in their wheelchairs yelling at each other.... "Sky Nazi!" "TW scum!"

Ahhhh....

I guess it's like the NWA guys and Republic. Self perpetuating misery.

I am off today and babysitting my daughters sick puppy. The image you created had me laughing so hard that she got up and left the room to sleep somewhere else!

 

[aa73]

Quite right, a straight DOH would not be a good deal for the AWA folks. As I have said before, I did not expect to get DOH, but I REALLY did not expect to lose my job either, and I hope you do not lose yours. It can get bloody ugly here on the outside looking in. I for one would have been happy to at least hang on in the FE seat, yet, I did not take the flowback to AE. Possibly a financial mistake. The reasons are my own.

In respect to the OZ integration, and my previous post. I do know that there were TWA and OZ pilots furloughed during that time frame. I believe that the seniority lists were not merged at that time, and quite possibly resembled the pre-merged AA/TWA downsizing. In that an equal number of from each list were eliminated. Like AA717 said, it was Icahn spite that started it.

Nevertheless it's been 20 years and a minority of pilots from both sides are still frothing at the mouth. In 20 years (7 years after my mandatory retirement) will the animosity between our two groups diminish?

respectfully
slag

slag, I think after 20 years there will still be a group that will forever be bitter. These are the folks that will allow the ugly parts of the merger to dictate their lives, and that is sad.

Unfortunately, I think our merger set a new industry standard for what NOT to do, and I think that generated the most bitter feelings of any merger. And who can blame them. This merger was a repeat of the DAL/PanAm merger in '91 times twenty, with one exception - 9-11 happened right after ours, which helped cause thousands of good TWA and AA folks to lose their jobs. Had that little event not happened, I think you would have seen less bitterness, because most would have remained employed. (Yes there still would be plenty of bitterness, though, that is a natural byproduct of mergers - especially ours.)

Had a similar event happened after DAL/PAA, you would have had the same exact situation - laying off mostly PAA personnel.

This is why I hope all future mergers are decided by neutral arbitration, because that seems to be the only fair/equitable way to handle disputes.

That said, I hope all you furloughed folks have moved on to better things. (I know TC did pretty well for himself, good on ya mate.) As far as I go, I've been the bottom guy system wide, so I've been used to the idea of furlough for quite a while now. Probably do me some good.

v/r
73

 

[AAslag]

Well said 73, I'm still laughing over the PHX767 image. Instead of a joust, I would hope that those retired neanderthals would just compete in their hoverounds, decals and all. Like, who can maintain the straightest centerline from therapy to the chow hall. Maybe I just gave Les an idea for his next article. That is if he's not too busy saving the aviation world.

Cheers

 

[AA717driver]

This is getting too chummy. I'm calling 'Head Case' and $hayman to stir things up! TC

 

[PHX767]

This is getting too chummy. I'm calling 'Head Case' and $hayman to stir things up! TC

TW Scum! :nuts:

J/k....

:beer: << Here is how it should be....

:uzi: Die Sky nazis! << Here is how many feel... Too bad

 

[pkober]

TC,

"Headcase", wow, a name I was hoping I had forgotten forever.

But seriously, it should be TWA717Driver !!

CLAMBAKE

 

[AAslag]

This is getting too chummy. I'm calling 'Head Case' and $hayman to stir things up! TC

GV scum. ;-)

 

[fareview]

There is no such thing as a 100% pay cut unless the result is zero.

We do know that right?

Respectfully,

fareview

 

[kjokmo]

Yes, it's called a furlough.

 

[pylut]

I must say I still laugh everytime I hear it wasn't me...I had nothing to do with it...it was the apa (which by the way is YOUR union funded by YOU made up of YOU and your ilk).
What a spineless cop out. I would have much more respect for the individual if they would just be honest and say "I recognize the staple job was wrong, but it benefitted me and I was too morally weak to voice an opinion against it."

Ancient history now.

My only advice is sell any aa stock you might have before the first stapled TWA guy gets recalled. That is if aa is still around.

 

[simav8r]

This is getting too chummy. I'm calling 'Head Case' and $hayman to stir things up! TC

So much for the "chummyness."uke: