AA - not good news

[publisher]

points

As to the $350k, I think that is the high on United 747 with xxx years etc, I was not trying to indicate that it was anything but one end of the spectrum.

On SWA, there are a lot of areas where they are efficient besides any pay issues. Obviously if their 737 pay was that bad, people would not fly for them. On the other hand, when times are tough like now, there efficiency including pay rates enable them to keep going without the trama everyone else is going through.

Some would suggest the approach that they should be dragged to the same pay rates and the same inefficiencies that plgue everyone else.

Perhaps the alternative would be better for all, making the other airlines more like Southwest. The customers and investors would prefer that.

 

[4850JD]

Southwest really needs to pick up the pace for pilot pay or else we're all going to see major pay cuts for a long time to come. SWA flies in a lot of the same markets as AMR and that is an advantage they have over AMR, pay, retirement, productivity (work rules).

Where is John Stosell? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

It seems like everyone now wants to blame Southwest for something........anything......... since their [your] carrier is going down the toilet faster than a 20-pounder.

When you boys over at UAL, DAL, et al. signed those ridiculous contracts with massive pay raises we all knew it was a matter of time before the crap hit. Let me tell you - I am about as Pro-Union as they come; I served on my LEC at my previous carrier but sometimes you have to see the forest through the trees.

The simple fact of the matter is that ALPA and APA have absolutely NO leadership; neither in the MEC level or National!!! How long have the regional counterparts of the majors been warning the mainline guys that the RJ's were a force to be reckoned with? APA wanted nothing to do with Eagle!!! DAL wanted nothing to do with Comair!!! Now they all want the large RJ's to save their jobs.

Why are you so outraged with SWA pay yet you remain silent on the pay for the guys at Eagle, ASA, Comair, etc..... Eagle has been classified as a Major by DOT (has for a long time) but no one seems to have a problem with those guy making $20-something an hour!!! It’s a simple fact that arrogance and greed have skewed the leadership and the subsequent rank-n-file causing a cancerous tumor on this industry.

 

[Mach92]

Well said >>>> 4850JD

 

[beytzim]

The airline industry is pretty f'ed up!

I've flown with United and USAir forloughees. Both of them 'were' starting their third year pay (as F/Os on Airbusses) and making $10,000 a month. That is ridiculous. 120k for a 3rd yr FO flying 15 days a month, now c'mon. In an effort to always 'one-up' a competitors airlines' pay, the unions always try to pay higher and higher. When does it stop? When a 777 captain makes 500k?, 700k? No! when an airline files Ch.11!

The airline industry needed to change when RJs came out. This is just its way of doing things - Ch.11 or layoffs. I was on a flight a couple of weeks ago on a DL 767-400 nonstop, unrefuled from ATL to SAV - and Delta is supposed to be one of the better ones!

The future is very clear to me: The few surviving majors are only going to have wide-bodies. The 'regionals', which are really majors will be flying RJs (50,70 and 90 seaters). The SWs and JBs will be there flying their own niche in between the wide-bodies and RJs. The regionals will have peanuts and sodas as they do now. The majors will actually have food - because most flights will be int'l or intercontinental.

Pay among the majors will stay the same as it is now. Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously. Senior captains will make low six figures.

That's the future. You can choose to embrace it or deny it. Nevertheless, it will happen.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Wrong

This is starting to sound similar to what Baseball is going through. MLB wants cheaper labor and the players are fighting them. The only difference between players and pilots is that the players are unified. Pilots as a whole will never be unified. Why, because of low time pilots that think 10K a month is ridiculous and will work for much less. After years of fighting our way through the “trenches” to gain the experience to be the responsible person to carry 200 people in flight, why we should be paid less than police officers and firefighters. Why shouldn’t we want to live comfortably, why are some pilots forcing our industry (professional pilots) to become nothing more than a blue collar machine operators. After all the training and simulators we’ve endured. 10K a month is the least we should be paid!!

 

[Aplus9]

Nice post Beytzim.

Disco,

Come on, make less than Police or Fire fighters? Do you know any police or fire fighters? I do. You can't believe that making 10k a month after 3 years as an F/O is logical. I'm for more pay, but let's keep it real.


Swimming and liking it.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Some poilce officers and firefighters do make more. With overtime, combined with leave while on detail, yes they can make a lot, and should. Up here in my next of the woods, there was an article about a state trooper that made $250,000. You say that not every civil servent makes that much, your right, but I'll bet many third year police and firefighters are making more than third year RJ FO pay.

So where do you draw the line? What should a third year FO make? I'd rather have the experience in the flight deck rather than some time building 20 something year old pud knocker, who paid for training, who was hired because he's the only one who would accept such low pay. Which is where we are headed.

I won't accept it, take me off the interview list. You can have the 20K a year job. I'm calling truckmasters.

 

[LilCap]

Aplus9, beytzim,

I agree with CCDiscoB. You're forgetting that 3rd year FO means, 10 year+ pilot. 2 years flight instructing, 2 years flying freight, maybe 3 years at a commuter or regional. Or could be 6 or 7 years in the military. My friends that are fire fighters or police officers do at least that well after 10 years. And, in our state can retire at 50 with more than 80% of their salary... not too bad.

I've been to funerals of fellow pilots who were trying to get enough time for that coveted FO position (not the safest job in the world either).

One final thought, no disrespect to the many others who lost their lives on 9/11, but don't forget who was the first on the scene.

 

[#21]

No U.S. based aircarrier has ever gone into bankruptcy due to its payroll being too high.

I'll take every dime that I have earned because:

1) It's a life-long commitment.

2) You never know what tomorrow might bring.

3) I **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** deserve it.


. . .thanks for letting me vent a little . . .


Keep the faith . . .fly safe.

 

[MAK]

There's a reason...

... pilots at the majors demand such high pay rates. If they agreed to work for less, there is NO guarantee that management will put away the savings for a "rainy day". IOW, you can't buy job security with a cheaper contract. I'd rather take the money out of management's hands and save it in the bank myself rather than let them pi$$ it away on dot-com ventures, airline aquisitions, and fare-wars.

Does anyone think, for instance, if UAL pilots agreed to smaller pay raises in 2000, UAL would have more cash on hand now?? No way, they would have squadered it on more stupid ideas.
At least I put a lot of that money in the bank, where it will do some good.

FedEx and SWA have an advantage many other airlines don't. They are/were run by their founder. These men cared about their airline and its employees because the companny was their "baby". There was a certain pride in ownership of something they created with their own blood sweat and tears.

Can any other large airlines say the same? Look at all the bonehead CEO's that were simply there to rape the company for all it was worth and take off after a few years of "hard" work. Look at how much time was spent in the boardroom cutting deals instead of running the airline. They didn't give a $h1t about the airline or its employees. All they did was pack their golden parachutes with as much as they could bail out with.

Hence, the situation many airlines are in now. It's every man/woman for himself. I see 59 year old Captains max'ing out their hours every month to "make up" for all the compensation they lost over the last 30 years of furloughs, bankrupcies, ESOP's, etc. I see junior 1st Officers doing the same because they feel they're on the street next month and need to build a war chest.

I can understand when the ignorant public claims airline pilots make too much money, but when I hear it from other pilots I am shocked. Maybe you think if the majors paid their 747/777 Captains less, then you would be paid more, huh?? I can tell you that isn't going to happen. The airlines would like to pay ALL of us less, not redistribute the wealth.

The more ANY pilot gets paid, the better for all pilots. The less one gets paid, the worse for all.

 

[PTWOB]

AMEN...

 

[JohnDoe]

beytzim stated:

"Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously."

I doubt that is going to happen to the extent you think it is......there will ALWAYS be pilots willing to work for 18k a year simply for the privelage (sp?) of having a flying job, and to build time to make it to their "dream" job, whatever that may be. Regional managements will ALWAYS find low-time pilots willing to work for peanuts.....where is their incentive to increase pay??

Do I think it should increase tremendously?? Having flown for a regional myself, of course I do.

 

[HA25]

I can't believe I'm on a pilot message board where pilots are calling themselves overpaid??????

I'm sorry, did I miss something?

I don't know about you but I spent 13 years getting to where I am now (which is only the start of a long road.......(Interviewed with AMR - Oct 01 Class, gone now!). I then would have had to make $24K/year for the first year and maybe, maybe, $65K my second year (that would be year 15 of my career).....I'm as well educated as my highschool pals who are making $150K/year typing on a keyboard for Sun micro and Apple in San Jose, and they have stock options and other great bene's. I haven't made more than $60K/year in the 6 years of "professional" flying I have behind me, all while my highschool buds were starting at $75K/year 8 years ago! My career at American was gonna be the reward for that long road, and you call that overpaid????

Between inflation and pay rising nationwide, we as a profession are lagging, UAL and DAL just tried to make up for lost time (8 years to be exact).....common guys!

And don't forget either.....if the top pay for being a pilot goes down, the bottom pay does too.....the $17K/year E120 FO will be a $10K/year FO and have to pay for training again (remember that? PFT $10,000 + hotel + food)

The problem with pay is in the ATR captain (like I was) who made $48K/year with the lives of 70 people in his hands.....or the $44K/year EJA Citation X captain, or the $150K/year SWA Captain who's company is making money in a recession while his fellow 737 pilots are DAL and UAL are about to loose their job because they dared ask to get what they are worth!

V70

 

[Meister Brau]

V70T5,

Man, maybe someday I'll get to fly with a guy like you and get to listen about how "hard" you've had it - and what you've "got coming" because you "paid your dues".... and "if only you went to law school" you'de have that big house like your high school buddies.

Someday.

Keep it real dude. Somebody on this board has a good quote from Darwin as their signiture - change or die.

Pax Vobiscum

 

[Dieterly]

Meister,

How long have you worked in the airline industry?

 

[publisher]

everyone can be right

The fact is that everyone on here can be right.

The part that is ignored is that things have to be relative and impact the overall in a way that the ultimate payer, the customer is willing to pay it.

Many here seem to think that the way this works is we determine what we want to be paid, negotiate for it, and then it is managements obligation to figure out how to get that back from the customer.

This rather than figuring out what the customer will pay and then how to structure your costs to fit it. This is one of the major differences between the American way of thinking and the Japanese way.

SWA has put together a balanced model that pays their employees in a reasonable way, treats them with respect, but, also enables them to put a product out that the public will pay for. Alaska, Jetblue, Airtran, and others are utilizing that model.

All this rhetoric is meaningless if that balance is not maintained.

 

[Bake]

To all you guys and gals who deserve more money. I partly agree with you. You spend alot of time and money investing in your flying future and then times like these happen. It sux no doubt, but instead of complaining or even worse "whining" about it go do something else. If the airline business is that bad and has been for that long, what in the hell are you still doing in the business. Most pilots are smart capable human beings, go make your quarter million a year somewhere else. BUT PLEASE QUIT WHINING, I get enough of that from my 2 year old.

Bake

 

[P3-Adub]

A bigger problem ?

A bigger problem than pay itself is the stupid notion the public has that it only costs $49.00 for a one way ticket from SFO-JFK ! I have had a few conversations with friends that really think that SWA makes money with that fare ! ( just an example, don't really know if they fly that route, I do know they offer it as a coast to coast fare) Lower the expectation this much and then people come to expect it. We are all killing ourselves by not being able to raise fares enough to do business. You can only do this for so long and even SWA won't be making money. How many polititians get up on their soapbox screaming about fares, it is not for the public but for themselves. When they travel on Govt. business, they ride in business class and don't give a rats a$$ how much the ticket is. However when they travel as anyone else does, they want that $49.00 coach fare. It is a shame they have the public forum to complain like they do, but hey, it is free speech in this country.

If a decent fare hike could make it's way into reality then we might start to see a change. How many times has the industry tried to raise a fare by only $20.00 just to have a competitor get greedy and try to gain a little more share of that pie ? I cannot imagine that Joe public would balk at paying $320.00 vs $300.00 ? Until we can erase the notion that airfare is cheaper than Greyhound fares, we are all in big trouble.

Anyone else feel the same way ?

 

[HA25]

This is obviously going nowhere with the ALPA/APA and DAL/UAL bashing on wages. I guess if we as pilots don't think we deserve good wages, then certainly the public and managemet will not.

BTW, $150K/yr is peanuts where I live, peanuts....get it? 1800 square foot houses cost $700,000 and up in middle class areas.... My wife would have to work (put our kids in day care), and then earn the same amount as me for us to live on that. I am (very)lucky to have other financal means at my disposal. And don't give me this "well move then!" becasue I don't **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**en want to!

If that is whining, then too bad, its my 1st amendment right, get over it.

 

[Yahtzee]

From Bake:

Most pilots are smart capable human beings, go make your quarter million a year somewhere else. BUT PLEASE QUIT WHINING

Can I have an "Amen"?

Falcon Capt has an intuitive grasp the obvious that some pilots are missing (which could led to whining ). Thanks for educating them.

Hoping the pool is emptied, so others can join.

Yahtz