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HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
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this isn't personal - don't make it..
I'm ok, I just don't want to see us flying RJ's all over the country to compete with SWA. The answer is that the airlines have to reevaluate their model, but that alone is not enough, SWA pilots and now JB pilots need to step up to the plate and get industry leading money for those 737's, else the free market will drag down everyone to the lowest common denominator. This is part of what is happening now where "UAL has high labor costs" The problem is that SWA has low costs, not the other way around as far as we pilots should be concerned.
If that rubs you wrong, I'm sorry, I don't mean any personal insult to anyone.
BTW V70T5 is the name of the souped up version of my wagon, the V70 2.4T, but that doesn’t go too well for a screen name so I use V70T5...... at least we can clear that up.
I'm ok, I just don't want to see us flying RJ's all over the country to compete with SWA. The answer is that the airlines have to reevaluate their model, but that alone is not enough, SWA pilots and now JB pilots need to step up to the plate and get industry leading money for those 737's, else the free market will drag down everyone to the lowest common denominator. This is part of what is happening now where "UAL has high labor costs" The problem is that SWA has low costs, not the other way around as far as we pilots should be concerned.
If that rubs you wrong, I'm sorry, I don't mean any personal insult to anyone.
BTW V70T5 is the name of the souped up version of my wagon, the V70 2.4T, but that doesn’t go too well for a screen name so I use V70T5...... at least we can clear that up.
Souped up wagon? That's cool...
It doesn't rub me wrong at all. It's just that 737 industry leading pay is whatever people are willing to pay to ride on a 737, and how much a company can pay a 737 pilot and remain profittable. Each day we are re-defining 737 industry leading pay. I hope that it doesn't fall much further...Good luck(hope I didn't misspell profittable).
As far as our pilots' "stepping up to the table", they did that almost 10 years ago in an unpresidented pay freeze in order to make sure that the company makes it through the GUARANTEED bad times that happen approx. every 10 or 12 years, and it appears to be working so far, not to mention the fact that they have just offered us a pay raise (and some nit wits are thinking about voting it down, guess you have 'em at every airline...)
Finally, after the profits happen, I get rewarded with stock options and profit sharing. I haven't been here for 30 yrs., but it has been working for 30 yrs. Just a recipe that I think the industry will be forced to look at...
I can't spell for sh#t...sorry
It doesn't rub me wrong at all. It's just that 737 industry leading pay is whatever people are willing to pay to ride on a 737, and how much a company can pay a 737 pilot and remain profittable. Each day we are re-defining 737 industry leading pay. I hope that it doesn't fall much further...Good luck(hope I didn't misspell profittable).
As far as our pilots' "stepping up to the table", they did that almost 10 years ago in an unpresidented pay freeze in order to make sure that the company makes it through the GUARANTEED bad times that happen approx. every 10 or 12 years, and it appears to be working so far, not to mention the fact that they have just offered us a pay raise (and some nit wits are thinking about voting it down, guess you have 'em at every airline...)
Finally, after the profits happen, I get rewarded with stock options and profit sharing. I haven't been here for 30 yrs., but it has been working for 30 yrs. Just a recipe that I think the industry will be forced to look at...
I can't spell for sh#t...sorry
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Actually, it won't be Eagle doubling in size. It will be Connection. Using "reverse code-sharing" they can fly ANY SIZE aircraft to ANY DESTINATION with UNLIMITED FLEET SIZE.
Scope and the ASM cap have Eagle under some control.
Connection is free to EXPLODE !
I should change my name to S60T5, as I have a "souped-up" sedan.
Scope and the ASM cap have Eagle under some control.
Connection is free to EXPLODE !
I should change my name to S60T5, as I have a "souped-up" sedan.
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
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- Dec 16, 2001
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eaglefly. the S60T5 is a rocket. I wanted the S80 T6 but the wife veto'd it and made me get the wagon, and the low pressure turbo, it still move out though.
As for "Connection", I agree and the term RJ has been stretched a bit as well, the other day I was at SMF and saw a Horizon CRJ700, and I had to do a double take as it looked like a mainline size jet. Now there are 90 seat versions and EMB has a AirBus 318 look alike comming out soon, to be sold to the "regionals" I assume.
I hope the unions can hold ground on scope, but I'm not counting on it.
As for "Connection", I agree and the term RJ has been stretched a bit as well, the other day I was at SMF and saw a Horizon CRJ700, and I had to do a double take as it looked like a mainline size jet. Now there are 90 seat versions and EMB has a AirBus 318 look alike comming out soon, to be sold to the "regionals" I assume.
I hope the unions can hold ground on scope, but I'm not counting on it.
AAflyer
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,493
Pub,
There is that magical $350K 747 captain pay. Please tell me where you are getting your numbers from. I have contract comparison numbers for all the majors (not kit darby's math either). Still can't figure where you arrived at that? It is bad enough the flying public (ignorance) thinks we make $350k and work a week a month, but you are in the biz.
As for SWA being the cheese. Yes it is a great company, but they don't fund a pension and medical to retirees like some of the other carriers. (what a tremendous cost) If those costs were dropped it would be a different story.
AAflyer
There is that magical $350K 747 captain pay. Please tell me where you are getting your numbers from. I have contract comparison numbers for all the majors (not kit darby's math either). Still can't figure where you arrived at that? It is bad enough the flying public (ignorance) thinks we make $350k and work a week a month, but you are in the biz.
As for SWA being the cheese. Yes it is a great company, but they don't fund a pension and medical to retirees like some of the other carriers. (what a tremendous cost) If those costs were dropped it would be a different story.
AAflyer
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
- Joined
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- 3,643
AApples and Peanuts
OK V70, here's my Kool-aid qualified response to that:
Efficiency. Quicker turns. Point-to-point flights. One airframe. Lower insurance costs (see "bring your own type rating.") Peanuts. Wild Turkey. Scanty FA uniforms (well, at least in the '70s--saved costs on material). Fast taxiing. Entertainment provided by the crew. Oh--and pay, retirement and productivity.
A little tongue-in-cheek, but you get the point. Really hard to compare the two. And I don't think Southwest wants to convert to a hub-and-spoke, international airline anymore than AA wants to convert to a point-to-point, domestic, one-airframe airline. As for picking up the pace for pilot pay, I believe Southwest could make a move to lead the entire industry for 737 pay by a cushion of 30% and still be the most profitable airline in the industry because of the other efficiencies. But that's just never going to happen. The guys over there just have a different take on the whole pay vs. retirement vs. job security equation. Of course they want to be paid commensurate to the duty at hand, and they will be. But I don't think there's going to be a lot of discussion about the verdancy of the neighbors' lawn when it comes down to crunch time, not in this new world anyway.
I feel for the furloughees out there, and for those who have, temporarily or permanently, missed their opportunity for their dream job, believe me--I share a bedroom with one of them, and she's the mother of my children. And as deleriously happy as I am, I'm not anywhere near complacent about my place in the grand experiment we're all in, despite my unbelievably good fortune to have a place in the Southwest pool. But I find it sadly ironic how much talk there is about Southwest these days, as if they just fell off the turnip truck. For God's sake, they've been doing THE SAME THING for 31 years now! And they even wrote their formula down in a few books. (The last good book about them was written even as the latest great boom in the majors began in '96.) But now all of a sudden they're more visible because they're leading in profitability (a gross understatement) and the pilots are supposed to step up and demand a wage that could make their balance sheet look a lot more like the rest of the carriers'? I just don't see it happening.
I sure wish I had a crystal ball to see, 1) if the RJ boom will really happen as has been widely projected in this forum, and 2) what affect that might have on Southwest's fortunes. I will keep the faith, as my dream job is riding on that one too.
In Herb I trust.
Sign me,
850T5, or 740GLE (Volvo geek moment)
V70T5 said:
OK V70, here's my Kool-aid qualified response to that:
Efficiency. Quicker turns. Point-to-point flights. One airframe. Lower insurance costs (see "bring your own type rating.") Peanuts. Wild Turkey. Scanty FA uniforms (well, at least in the '70s--saved costs on material). Fast taxiing. Entertainment provided by the crew. Oh--and pay, retirement and productivity.
A little tongue-in-cheek, but you get the point. Really hard to compare the two. And I don't think Southwest wants to convert to a hub-and-spoke, international airline anymore than AA wants to convert to a point-to-point, domestic, one-airframe airline. As for picking up the pace for pilot pay, I believe Southwest could make a move to lead the entire industry for 737 pay by a cushion of 30% and still be the most profitable airline in the industry because of the other efficiencies. But that's just never going to happen. The guys over there just have a different take on the whole pay vs. retirement vs. job security equation. Of course they want to be paid commensurate to the duty at hand, and they will be. But I don't think there's going to be a lot of discussion about the verdancy of the neighbors' lawn when it comes down to crunch time, not in this new world anyway.
I feel for the furloughees out there, and for those who have, temporarily or permanently, missed their opportunity for their dream job, believe me--I share a bedroom with one of them, and she's the mother of my children. And as deleriously happy as I am, I'm not anywhere near complacent about my place in the grand experiment we're all in, despite my unbelievably good fortune to have a place in the Southwest pool. But I find it sadly ironic how much talk there is about Southwest these days, as if they just fell off the turnip truck. For God's sake, they've been doing THE SAME THING for 31 years now! And they even wrote their formula down in a few books. (The last good book about them was written even as the latest great boom in the majors began in '96.) But now all of a sudden they're more visible because they're leading in profitability (a gross understatement) and the pilots are supposed to step up and demand a wage that could make their balance sheet look a lot more like the rest of the carriers'? I just don't see it happening.
I sure wish I had a crystal ball to see, 1) if the RJ boom will really happen as has been widely projected in this forum, and 2) what affect that might have on Southwest's fortunes. I will keep the faith, as my dream job is riding on that one too.
In Herb I trust.
Sign me,
850T5, or 740GLE (Volvo geek moment)
publisher
Well-known member
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- 592
points
As to the $350k, I think that is the high on United 747 with xxx years etc, I was not trying to indicate that it was anything but one end of the spectrum.
On SWA, there are a lot of areas where they are efficient besides any pay issues. Obviously if their 737 pay was that bad, people would not fly for them. On the other hand, when times are tough like now, there efficiency including pay rates enable them to keep going without the trama everyone else is going through.
Some would suggest the approach that they should be dragged to the same pay rates and the same inefficiencies that plgue everyone else.
Perhaps the alternative would be better for all, making the other airlines more like Southwest. The customers and investors would prefer that.
As to the $350k, I think that is the high on United 747 with xxx years etc, I was not trying to indicate that it was anything but one end of the spectrum.
On SWA, there are a lot of areas where they are efficient besides any pay issues. Obviously if their 737 pay was that bad, people would not fly for them. On the other hand, when times are tough like now, there efficiency including pay rates enable them to keep going without the trama everyone else is going through.
Some would suggest the approach that they should be dragged to the same pay rates and the same inefficiencies that plgue everyone else.
Perhaps the alternative would be better for all, making the other airlines more like Southwest. The customers and investors would prefer that.
V70T5 said:
Where is John Stosell? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
It seems like everyone now wants to blame Southwest for something........anything......... since their [your] carrier is going down the toilet faster than a 20-pounder.
When you boys over at UAL, DAL, et al. signed those ridiculous contracts with massive pay raises we all knew it was a matter of time before the crap hit. Let me tell you - I am about as Pro-Union as they come; I served on my LEC at my previous carrier but sometimes you have to see the forest through the trees.
The simple fact of the matter is that ALPA and APA have absolutely NO leadership; neither in the MEC level or National!!! How long have the regional counterparts of the majors been warning the mainline guys that the RJ's were a force to be reckoned with? APA wanted nothing to do with Eagle!!! DAL wanted nothing to do with Comair!!! Now they all want the large RJ's to save their jobs.
Why are you so outraged with SWA pay yet you remain silent on the pay for the guys at Eagle, ASA, Comair, etc..... Eagle has been classified as a Major by DOT (has for a long time) but no one seems to have a problem with those guy making $20-something an hour!!! It’s a simple fact that arrogance and greed have skewed the leadership and the subsequent rank-n-file causing a cancerous tumor on this industry.
beytzim
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
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- 202
The airline industry is pretty f'ed up!
I've flown with United and USAir forloughees. Both of them 'were' starting their third year pay (as F/Os on Airbusses) and making $10,000 a month. That is ridiculous. 120k for a 3rd yr FO flying 15 days a month, now c'mon. In an effort to always 'one-up' a competitors airlines' pay, the unions always try to pay higher and higher. When does it stop? When a 777 captain makes 500k?, 700k? No! when an airline files Ch.11!
The airline industry needed to change when RJs came out. This is just its way of doing things - Ch.11 or layoffs. I was on a flight a couple of weeks ago on a DL 767-400 nonstop, unrefuled from ATL to SAV - and Delta is supposed to be one of the better ones!
The future is very clear to me: The few surviving majors are only going to have wide-bodies. The 'regionals', which are really majors will be flying RJs (50,70 and 90 seaters). The SWs and JBs will be there flying their own niche in between the wide-bodies and RJs. The regionals will have peanuts and sodas as they do now. The majors will actually have food - because most flights will be int'l or intercontinental.
Pay among the majors will stay the same as it is now. Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously. Senior captains will make low six figures.
That's the future. You can choose to embrace it or deny it. Nevertheless, it will happen.
I've flown with United and USAir forloughees. Both of them 'were' starting their third year pay (as F/Os on Airbusses) and making $10,000 a month. That is ridiculous. 120k for a 3rd yr FO flying 15 days a month, now c'mon. In an effort to always 'one-up' a competitors airlines' pay, the unions always try to pay higher and higher. When does it stop? When a 777 captain makes 500k?, 700k? No! when an airline files Ch.11!
The airline industry needed to change when RJs came out. This is just its way of doing things - Ch.11 or layoffs. I was on a flight a couple of weeks ago on a DL 767-400 nonstop, unrefuled from ATL to SAV - and Delta is supposed to be one of the better ones!
The future is very clear to me: The few surviving majors are only going to have wide-bodies. The 'regionals', which are really majors will be flying RJs (50,70 and 90 seaters). The SWs and JBs will be there flying their own niche in between the wide-bodies and RJs. The regionals will have peanuts and sodas as they do now. The majors will actually have food - because most flights will be int'l or intercontinental.
Pay among the majors will stay the same as it is now. Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously. Senior captains will make low six figures.
That's the future. You can choose to embrace it or deny it. Nevertheless, it will happen.
CCDiscoB
Well-known member
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- 779
Wrong
This is starting to sound similar to what Baseball is going through. MLB wants cheaper labor and the players are fighting them. The only difference between players and pilots is that the players are unified. Pilots as a whole will never be unified. Why, because of low time pilots that think 10K a month is ridiculous and will work for much less. After years of fighting our way through the “trenches” to gain the experience to be the responsible person to carry 200 people in flight, why we should be paid less than police officers and firefighters. Why shouldn’t we want to live comfortably, why are some pilots forcing our industry (professional pilots) to become nothing more than a blue collar machine operators. After all the training and simulators we’ve endured. 10K a month is the least we should be paid!!
This is starting to sound similar to what Baseball is going through. MLB wants cheaper labor and the players are fighting them. The only difference between players and pilots is that the players are unified. Pilots as a whole will never be unified. Why, because of low time pilots that think 10K a month is ridiculous and will work for much less. After years of fighting our way through the “trenches” to gain the experience to be the responsible person to carry 200 people in flight, why we should be paid less than police officers and firefighters. Why shouldn’t we want to live comfortably, why are some pilots forcing our industry (professional pilots) to become nothing more than a blue collar machine operators. After all the training and simulators we’ve endured. 10K a month is the least we should be paid!!
Aplus9
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CCDiscoB
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Some poilce officers and firefighters do make more. With overtime, combined with leave while on detail, yes they can make a lot, and should. Up here in my next of the woods, there was an article about a state trooper that made $250,000. You say that not every civil servent makes that much, your right, but I'll bet many third year police and firefighters are making more than third year RJ FO pay.
So where do you draw the line? What should a third year FO make? I'd rather have the experience in the flight deck rather than some time building 20 something year old pud knocker, who paid for training, who was hired because he's the only one who would accept such low pay. Which is where we are headed.
I won't accept it, take me off the interview list. You can have the 20K a year job. I'm calling truckmasters.
So where do you draw the line? What should a third year FO make? I'd rather have the experience in the flight deck rather than some time building 20 something year old pud knocker, who paid for training, who was hired because he's the only one who would accept such low pay. Which is where we are headed.
I won't accept it, take me off the interview list. You can have the 20K a year job. I'm calling truckmasters.
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Aplus9, beytzim,
I agree with CCDiscoB. You're forgetting that 3rd year FO means, 10 year+ pilot. 2 years flight instructing, 2 years flying freight, maybe 3 years at a commuter or regional. Or could be 6 or 7 years in the military. My friends that are fire fighters or police officers do at least that well after 10 years. And, in our state can retire at 50 with more than 80% of their salary... not too bad.
I've been to funerals of fellow pilots who were trying to get enough time for that coveted FO position (not the safest job in the world either).
One final thought, no disrespect to the many others who lost their lives on 9/11, but don't forget who was the first on the scene.
I agree with CCDiscoB. You're forgetting that 3rd year FO means, 10 year+ pilot. 2 years flight instructing, 2 years flying freight, maybe 3 years at a commuter or regional. Or could be 6 or 7 years in the military. My friends that are fire fighters or police officers do at least that well after 10 years. And, in our state can retire at 50 with more than 80% of their salary... not too bad.
I've been to funerals of fellow pilots who were trying to get enough time for that coveted FO position (not the safest job in the world either).
One final thought, no disrespect to the many others who lost their lives on 9/11, but don't forget who was the first on the scene.
No U.S. based aircarrier has ever gone into bankruptcy due to its payroll being too high.
I'll take every dime that I have earned because:
1) It's a life-long commitment.
2) You never know what tomorrow might bring.
3) I **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** deserve it.
. . .thanks for letting me vent a little . . .
Keep the faith . . .fly safe.
I'll take every dime that I have earned because:
1) It's a life-long commitment.
2) You never know what tomorrow might bring.
3) I **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** deserve it.
. . .thanks for letting me vent a little . . .
Keep the faith . . .fly safe.
There's a reason...
... pilots at the majors demand such high pay rates. If they agreed to work for less, there is NO guarantee that management will put away the savings for a "rainy day". IOW, you can't buy job security with a cheaper contract. I'd rather take the money out of management's hands and save it in the bank myself rather than let them pi$$ it away on dot-com ventures, airline aquisitions, and fare-wars.
Does anyone think, for instance, if UAL pilots agreed to smaller pay raises in 2000, UAL would have more cash on hand now?? No way, they would have squadered it on more stupid ideas.
At least I put a lot of that money in the bank, where it will do some good.
FedEx and SWA have an advantage many other airlines don't. They are/were run by their founder. These men cared about their airline and its employees because the companny was their "baby". There was a certain pride in ownership of something they created with their own blood sweat and tears.
Can any other large airlines say the same? Look at all the bonehead CEO's that were simply there to rape the company for all it was worth and take off after a few years of "hard" work. Look at how much time was spent in the boardroom cutting deals instead of running the airline. They didn't give a $h1t about the airline or its employees. All they did was pack their golden parachutes with as much as they could bail out with.
Hence, the situation many airlines are in now. It's every man/woman for himself. I see 59 year old Captains max'ing out their hours every month to "make up" for all the compensation they lost over the last 30 years of furloughs, bankrupcies, ESOP's, etc. I see junior 1st Officers doing the same because they feel they're on the street next month and need to build a war chest.
I can understand when the ignorant public claims airline pilots make too much money, but when I hear it from other pilots I am shocked. Maybe you think if the majors paid their 747/777 Captains less, then you would be paid more, huh?? I can tell you that isn't going to happen. The airlines would like to pay ALL of us less, not redistribute the wealth.
The more ANY pilot gets paid, the better for all pilots. The less one gets paid, the worse for all.
... pilots at the majors demand such high pay rates. If they agreed to work for less, there is NO guarantee that management will put away the savings for a "rainy day". IOW, you can't buy job security with a cheaper contract. I'd rather take the money out of management's hands and save it in the bank myself rather than let them pi$$ it away on dot-com ventures, airline aquisitions, and fare-wars.
Does anyone think, for instance, if UAL pilots agreed to smaller pay raises in 2000, UAL would have more cash on hand now?? No way, they would have squadered it on more stupid ideas.
At least I put a lot of that money in the bank, where it will do some good.
FedEx and SWA have an advantage many other airlines don't. They are/were run by their founder. These men cared about their airline and its employees because the companny was their "baby". There was a certain pride in ownership of something they created with their own blood sweat and tears.
Can any other large airlines say the same? Look at all the bonehead CEO's that were simply there to rape the company for all it was worth and take off after a few years of "hard" work. Look at how much time was spent in the boardroom cutting deals instead of running the airline. They didn't give a $h1t about the airline or its employees. All they did was pack their golden parachutes with as much as they could bail out with.
Hence, the situation many airlines are in now. It's every man/woman for himself. I see 59 year old Captains max'ing out their hours every month to "make up" for all the compensation they lost over the last 30 years of furloughs, bankrupcies, ESOP's, etc. I see junior 1st Officers doing the same because they feel they're on the street next month and need to build a war chest.
I can understand when the ignorant public claims airline pilots make too much money, but when I hear it from other pilots I am shocked. Maybe you think if the majors paid their 747/777 Captains less, then you would be paid more, huh?? I can tell you that isn't going to happen. The airlines would like to pay ALL of us less, not redistribute the wealth.
The more ANY pilot gets paid, the better for all pilots. The less one gets paid, the worse for all.
beytzim stated:
"Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously."
I doubt that is going to happen to the extent you think it is......there will ALWAYS be pilots willing to work for 18k a year simply for the privelage (sp?) of having a flying job, and to build time to make it to their "dream" job, whatever that may be. Regional managements will ALWAYS find low-time pilots willing to work for peanuts.....where is their incentive to increase pay??
Do I think it should increase tremendously?? Having flown for a regional myself, of course I do.
"Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously."
I doubt that is going to happen to the extent you think it is......there will ALWAYS be pilots willing to work for 18k a year simply for the privelage (sp?) of having a flying job, and to build time to make it to their "dream" job, whatever that may be. Regional managements will ALWAYS find low-time pilots willing to work for peanuts.....where is their incentive to increase pay??
Do I think it should increase tremendously?? Having flown for a regional myself, of course I do.
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
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- Posts
- 3,643
I can't believe I'm on a pilot message board where pilots are calling themselves overpaid??????
I'm sorry, did I miss something?
I don't know about you but I spent 13 years getting to where I am now (which is only the start of a long road.......(Interviewed with AMR - Oct 01 Class, gone now!). I then would have had to make $24K/year for the first year and maybe, maybe, $65K my second year (that would be year 15 of my career).....I'm as well educated as my highschool pals who are making $150K/year typing on a keyboard for Sun micro and Apple in San Jose, and they have stock options and other great bene's. I haven't made more than $60K/year in the 6 years of "professional" flying I have behind me, all while my highschool buds were starting at $75K/year 8 years ago! My career at American was gonna be the reward for that long road, and you call that overpaid????
Between inflation and pay rising nationwide, we as a profession are lagging, UAL and DAL just tried to make up for lost time (8 years to be exact).....common guys!
And don't forget either.....if the top pay for being a pilot goes down, the bottom pay does too.....the $17K/year E120 FO will be a $10K/year FO and have to pay for training again (remember that? PFT $10,000 + hotel + food)
The problem with pay is in the ATR captain (like I was) who made $48K/year with the lives of 70 people in his hands.....or the $44K/year EJA Citation X captain, or the $150K/year SWA Captain who's company is making money in a recession while his fellow 737 pilots are DAL and UAL are about to loose their job because they dared ask to get what they are worth!
V70
I'm sorry, did I miss something?
I don't know about you but I spent 13 years getting to where I am now (which is only the start of a long road.......(Interviewed with AMR - Oct 01 Class, gone now!). I then would have had to make $24K/year for the first year and maybe, maybe, $65K my second year (that would be year 15 of my career).....I'm as well educated as my highschool pals who are making $150K/year typing on a keyboard for Sun micro and Apple in San Jose, and they have stock options and other great bene's. I haven't made more than $60K/year in the 6 years of "professional" flying I have behind me, all while my highschool buds were starting at $75K/year 8 years ago! My career at American was gonna be the reward for that long road, and you call that overpaid????
Between inflation and pay rising nationwide, we as a profession are lagging, UAL and DAL just tried to make up for lost time (8 years to be exact).....common guys!
And don't forget either.....if the top pay for being a pilot goes down, the bottom pay does too.....the $17K/year E120 FO will be a $10K/year FO and have to pay for training again (remember that? PFT $10,000 + hotel + food)
The problem with pay is in the ATR captain (like I was) who made $48K/year with the lives of 70 people in his hands.....or the $44K/year EJA Citation X captain, or the $150K/year SWA Captain who's company is making money in a recession while his fellow 737 pilots are DAL and UAL are about to loose their job because they dared ask to get what they are worth!
V70
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Meister Brau
Member
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2002
- Posts
- 15
V70T5,
Man, maybe someday I'll get to fly with a guy like you and get to listen about how "hard" you've had it - and what you've "got coming" because you "paid your dues".... and "if only you went to law school" you'de have that big house like your high school buddies.
Someday.
Keep it real dude. Somebody on this board has a good quote from Darwin as their signiture - change or die.
Pax Vobiscum
Man, maybe someday I'll get to fly with a guy like you and get to listen about how "hard" you've had it - and what you've "got coming" because you "paid your dues".... and "if only you went to law school" you'de have that big house like your high school buddies.
Someday.
Keep it real dude. Somebody on this board has a good quote from Darwin as their signiture - change or die.
Pax Vobiscum
publisher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 592
everyone can be right
The fact is that everyone on here can be right.
The part that is ignored is that things have to be relative and impact the overall in a way that the ultimate payer, the customer is willing to pay it.
Many here seem to think that the way this works is we determine what we want to be paid, negotiate for it, and then it is managements obligation to figure out how to get that back from the customer.
This rather than figuring out what the customer will pay and then how to structure your costs to fit it. This is one of the major differences between the American way of thinking and the Japanese way.
SWA has put together a balanced model that pays their employees in a reasonable way, treats them with respect, but, also enables them to put a product out that the public will pay for. Alaska, Jetblue, Airtran, and others are utilizing that model.
All this rhetoric is meaningless if that balance is not maintained.
The fact is that everyone on here can be right.
The part that is ignored is that things have to be relative and impact the overall in a way that the ultimate payer, the customer is willing to pay it.
Many here seem to think that the way this works is we determine what we want to be paid, negotiate for it, and then it is managements obligation to figure out how to get that back from the customer.
This rather than figuring out what the customer will pay and then how to structure your costs to fit it. This is one of the major differences between the American way of thinking and the Japanese way.
SWA has put together a balanced model that pays their employees in a reasonable way, treats them with respect, but, also enables them to put a product out that the public will pay for. Alaska, Jetblue, Airtran, and others are utilizing that model.
All this rhetoric is meaningless if that balance is not maintained.
Bake
I LIKE THE GEEZER METER!!
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2002
- Posts
- 699
To all you guys and gals who deserve more money. I partly agree with you. You spend alot of time and money investing in your flying future and then times like these happen. It sux no doubt, but instead of complaining or even worse "whining" about it go do something else. If the airline business is that bad and has been for that long, what in the hell are you still doing in the business. Most pilots are smart capable human beings, go make your quarter million a year somewhere else. BUT PLEASE QUIT WHINING, I get enough of that from my 2 year old.
Bake
Bake
P3-Adub
Bye Bye !!!
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 195
A bigger problem ?
A bigger problem than pay itself is the stupid notion the public has that it only costs $49.00 for a one way ticket from SFO-JFK ! I have had a few conversations with friends that really think that SWA makes money with that fare ! ( just an example, don't really know if they fly that route, I do know they offer it as a coast to coast fare) Lower the expectation this much and then people come to expect it. We are all killing ourselves by not being able to raise fares enough to do business. You can only do this for so long and even SWA won't be making money. How many polititians get up on their soapbox screaming about fares, it is not for the public but for themselves. When they travel on Govt. business, they ride in business class and don't give a rats a$$ how much the ticket is. However when they travel as anyone else does, they want that $49.00 coach fare. It is a shame they have the public forum to complain like they do, but hey, it is free speech in this country.
If a decent fare hike could make it's way into reality then we might start to see a change. How many times has the industry tried to raise a fare by only $20.00 just to have a competitor get greedy and try to gain a little more share of that pie ? I cannot imagine that Joe public would balk at paying $320.00 vs $300.00 ? Until we can erase the notion that airfare is cheaper than Greyhound fares, we are all in big trouble.
Anyone else feel the same way ?
A bigger problem than pay itself is the stupid notion the public has that it only costs $49.00 for a one way ticket from SFO-JFK ! I have had a few conversations with friends that really think that SWA makes money with that fare ! ( just an example, don't really know if they fly that route, I do know they offer it as a coast to coast fare) Lower the expectation this much and then people come to expect it. We are all killing ourselves by not being able to raise fares enough to do business. You can only do this for so long and even SWA won't be making money. How many polititians get up on their soapbox screaming about fares, it is not for the public but for themselves. When they travel on Govt. business, they ride in business class and don't give a rats a$$ how much the ticket is. However when they travel as anyone else does, they want that $49.00 coach fare. It is a shame they have the public forum to complain like they do, but hey, it is free speech in this country.
If a decent fare hike could make it's way into reality then we might start to see a change. How many times has the industry tried to raise a fare by only $20.00 just to have a competitor get greedy and try to gain a little more share of that pie ? I cannot imagine that Joe public would balk at paying $320.00 vs $300.00 ? Until we can erase the notion that airfare is cheaper than Greyhound fares, we are all in big trouble.
Anyone else feel the same way ?
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2001
- Posts
- 3,643
This is obviously going nowhere with the ALPA/APA and DAL/UAL bashing on wages. I guess if we as pilots don't think we deserve good wages, then certainly the public and managemet will not.
BTW, $150K/yr is peanuts where I live, peanuts....get it? 1800 square foot houses cost $700,000 and up in middle class areas.... My wife would have to work (put our kids in day care), and then earn the same amount as me for us to live on that. I am (very)lucky to have other financal means at my disposal. And don't give me this "well move then!" becasue I don't **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**en want to!
If that is whining, then too bad, its my 1st amendment right, get over it.
BTW, $150K/yr is peanuts where I live, peanuts....get it? 1800 square foot houses cost $700,000 and up in middle class areas.... My wife would have to work (put our kids in day care), and then earn the same amount as me for us to live on that. I am (very)lucky to have other financal means at my disposal. And don't give me this "well move then!" becasue I don't **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**en want to!
If that is whining, then too bad, its my 1st amendment right, get over it.
Yahtzee
Season Ticket Holder
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2002
- Posts
- 301
From Bake:
Most pilots are smart capable human beings, go make your quarter million a year somewhere else. BUT PLEASE QUIT WHININGCan I have an "Amen"?
Falcon Capt has an intuitive grasp the obvious that some pilots are missing (which could led to whining). Thanks for educating them.
Hoping the pool is emptied, so others can join.
Yahtz
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