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HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2001
- Posts
- 3,643
this isn't personal - don't make it..
I'm ok, I just don't want to see us flying RJ's all over the country to compete with SWA. The answer is that the airlines have to reevaluate their model, but that alone is not enough, SWA pilots and now JB pilots need to step up to the plate and get industry leading money for those 737's, else the free market will drag down everyone to the lowest common denominator. This is part of what is happening now where "UAL has high labor costs" The problem is that SWA has low costs, not the other way around as far as we pilots should be concerned.
If that rubs you wrong, I'm sorry, I don't mean any personal insult to anyone.
BTW V70T5 is the name of the souped up version of my wagon, the V70 2.4T, but that doesn’t go too well for a screen name so I use V70T5...... at least we can clear that up.
I'm ok, I just don't want to see us flying RJ's all over the country to compete with SWA. The answer is that the airlines have to reevaluate their model, but that alone is not enough, SWA pilots and now JB pilots need to step up to the plate and get industry leading money for those 737's, else the free market will drag down everyone to the lowest common denominator. This is part of what is happening now where "UAL has high labor costs" The problem is that SWA has low costs, not the other way around as far as we pilots should be concerned.
If that rubs you wrong, I'm sorry, I don't mean any personal insult to anyone.
BTW V70T5 is the name of the souped up version of my wagon, the V70 2.4T, but that doesn’t go too well for a screen name so I use V70T5...... at least we can clear that up.
Souped up wagon? That's cool...
It doesn't rub me wrong at all. It's just that 737 industry leading pay is whatever people are willing to pay to ride on a 737, and how much a company can pay a 737 pilot and remain profittable. Each day we are re-defining 737 industry leading pay. I hope that it doesn't fall much further...Good luck(hope I didn't misspell profittable).
As far as our pilots' "stepping up to the table", they did that almost 10 years ago in an unpresidented pay freeze in order to make sure that the company makes it through the GUARANTEED bad times that happen approx. every 10 or 12 years, and it appears to be working so far, not to mention the fact that they have just offered us a pay raise (and some nit wits are thinking about voting it down, guess you have 'em at every airline...)
Finally, after the profits happen, I get rewarded with stock options and profit sharing. I haven't been here for 30 yrs., but it has been working for 30 yrs. Just a recipe that I think the industry will be forced to look at...
I can't spell for sh#t...sorry
It doesn't rub me wrong at all. It's just that 737 industry leading pay is whatever people are willing to pay to ride on a 737, and how much a company can pay a 737 pilot and remain profittable. Each day we are re-defining 737 industry leading pay. I hope that it doesn't fall much further...Good luck(hope I didn't misspell profittable).
As far as our pilots' "stepping up to the table", they did that almost 10 years ago in an unpresidented pay freeze in order to make sure that the company makes it through the GUARANTEED bad times that happen approx. every 10 or 12 years, and it appears to be working so far, not to mention the fact that they have just offered us a pay raise (and some nit wits are thinking about voting it down, guess you have 'em at every airline...)
Finally, after the profits happen, I get rewarded with stock options and profit sharing. I haven't been here for 30 yrs., but it has been working for 30 yrs. Just a recipe that I think the industry will be forced to look at...
I can't spell for sh#t...sorry
Last edited:
Actually, it won't be Eagle doubling in size. It will be Connection. Using "reverse code-sharing" they can fly ANY SIZE aircraft to ANY DESTINATION with UNLIMITED FLEET SIZE.
Scope and the ASM cap have Eagle under some control.
Connection is free to EXPLODE !
I should change my name to S60T5, as I have a "souped-up" sedan.
Scope and the ASM cap have Eagle under some control.
Connection is free to EXPLODE !
I should change my name to S60T5, as I have a "souped-up" sedan.
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2001
- Posts
- 3,643
eaglefly. the S60T5 is a rocket. I wanted the S80 T6 but the wife veto'd it and made me get the wagon, and the low pressure turbo, it still move out though.
As for "Connection", I agree and the term RJ has been stretched a bit as well, the other day I was at SMF and saw a Horizon CRJ700, and I had to do a double take as it looked like a mainline size jet. Now there are 90 seat versions and EMB has a AirBus 318 look alike comming out soon, to be sold to the "regionals" I assume.
I hope the unions can hold ground on scope, but I'm not counting on it.
As for "Connection", I agree and the term RJ has been stretched a bit as well, the other day I was at SMF and saw a Horizon CRJ700, and I had to do a double take as it looked like a mainline size jet. Now there are 90 seat versions and EMB has a AirBus 318 look alike comming out soon, to be sold to the "regionals" I assume.
I hope the unions can hold ground on scope, but I'm not counting on it.
AAflyer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 1,493
Pub,
There is that magical $350K 747 captain pay. Please tell me where you are getting your numbers from. I have contract comparison numbers for all the majors (not kit darby's math either). Still can't figure where you arrived at that? It is bad enough the flying public (ignorance) thinks we make $350k and work a week a month, but you are in the biz.
As for SWA being the cheese. Yes it is a great company, but they don't fund a pension and medical to retirees like some of the other carriers. (what a tremendous cost) If those costs were dropped it would be a different story.
AAflyer
There is that magical $350K 747 captain pay. Please tell me where you are getting your numbers from. I have contract comparison numbers for all the majors (not kit darby's math either). Still can't figure where you arrived at that? It is bad enough the flying public (ignorance) thinks we make $350k and work a week a month, but you are in the biz.
As for SWA being the cheese. Yes it is a great company, but they don't fund a pension and medical to retirees like some of the other carriers. (what a tremendous cost) If those costs were dropped it would be a different story.
AAflyer
HA25
Tokyo Tokyo!
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2001
- Posts
- 3,643
AApples and Peanuts
OK V70, here's my Kool-aid qualified response to that:
Efficiency. Quicker turns. Point-to-point flights. One airframe. Lower insurance costs (see "bring your own type rating.") Peanuts. Wild Turkey. Scanty FA uniforms (well, at least in the '70s--saved costs on material). Fast taxiing. Entertainment provided by the crew. Oh--and pay, retirement and productivity.
A little tongue-in-cheek, but you get the point. Really hard to compare the two. And I don't think Southwest wants to convert to a hub-and-spoke, international airline anymore than AA wants to convert to a point-to-point, domestic, one-airframe airline. As for picking up the pace for pilot pay, I believe Southwest could make a move to lead the entire industry for 737 pay by a cushion of 30% and still be the most profitable airline in the industry because of the other efficiencies. But that's just never going to happen. The guys over there just have a different take on the whole pay vs. retirement vs. job security equation. Of course they want to be paid commensurate to the duty at hand, and they will be. But I don't think there's going to be a lot of discussion about the verdancy of the neighbors' lawn when it comes down to crunch time, not in this new world anyway.
I feel for the furloughees out there, and for those who have, temporarily or permanently, missed their opportunity for their dream job, believe me--I share a bedroom with one of them, and she's the mother of my children. And as deleriously happy as I am, I'm not anywhere near complacent about my place in the grand experiment we're all in, despite my unbelievably good fortune to have a place in the Southwest pool. But I find it sadly ironic how much talk there is about Southwest these days, as if they just fell off the turnip truck. For God's sake, they've been doing THE SAME THING for 31 years now! And they even wrote their formula down in a few books. (The last good book about them was written even as the latest great boom in the majors began in '96.) But now all of a sudden they're more visible because they're leading in profitability (a gross understatement) and the pilots are supposed to step up and demand a wage that could make their balance sheet look a lot more like the rest of the carriers'? I just don't see it happening.
I sure wish I had a crystal ball to see, 1) if the RJ boom will really happen as has been widely projected in this forum, and 2) what affect that might have on Southwest's fortunes. I will keep the faith, as my dream job is riding on that one too.
In Herb I trust.
Sign me,
850T5, or 740GLE (Volvo geek moment)
V70T5 said:
OK V70, here's my Kool-aid qualified response to that:
Efficiency. Quicker turns. Point-to-point flights. One airframe. Lower insurance costs (see "bring your own type rating.") Peanuts. Wild Turkey. Scanty FA uniforms (well, at least in the '70s--saved costs on material). Fast taxiing. Entertainment provided by the crew. Oh--and pay, retirement and productivity.
A little tongue-in-cheek, but you get the point. Really hard to compare the two. And I don't think Southwest wants to convert to a hub-and-spoke, international airline anymore than AA wants to convert to a point-to-point, domestic, one-airframe airline. As for picking up the pace for pilot pay, I believe Southwest could make a move to lead the entire industry for 737 pay by a cushion of 30% and still be the most profitable airline in the industry because of the other efficiencies. But that's just never going to happen. The guys over there just have a different take on the whole pay vs. retirement vs. job security equation. Of course they want to be paid commensurate to the duty at hand, and they will be. But I don't think there's going to be a lot of discussion about the verdancy of the neighbors' lawn when it comes down to crunch time, not in this new world anyway.
I feel for the furloughees out there, and for those who have, temporarily or permanently, missed their opportunity for their dream job, believe me--I share a bedroom with one of them, and she's the mother of my children. And as deleriously happy as I am, I'm not anywhere near complacent about my place in the grand experiment we're all in, despite my unbelievably good fortune to have a place in the Southwest pool. But I find it sadly ironic how much talk there is about Southwest these days, as if they just fell off the turnip truck. For God's sake, they've been doing THE SAME THING for 31 years now! And they even wrote their formula down in a few books. (The last good book about them was written even as the latest great boom in the majors began in '96.) But now all of a sudden they're more visible because they're leading in profitability (a gross understatement) and the pilots are supposed to step up and demand a wage that could make their balance sheet look a lot more like the rest of the carriers'? I just don't see it happening.
I sure wish I had a crystal ball to see, 1) if the RJ boom will really happen as has been widely projected in this forum, and 2) what affect that might have on Southwest's fortunes. I will keep the faith, as my dream job is riding on that one too.
In Herb I trust.
Sign me,
850T5, or 740GLE (Volvo geek moment)
publisher
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 592
points
As to the $350k, I think that is the high on United 747 with xxx years etc, I was not trying to indicate that it was anything but one end of the spectrum.
On SWA, there are a lot of areas where they are efficient besides any pay issues. Obviously if their 737 pay was that bad, people would not fly for them. On the other hand, when times are tough like now, there efficiency including pay rates enable them to keep going without the trama everyone else is going through.
Some would suggest the approach that they should be dragged to the same pay rates and the same inefficiencies that plgue everyone else.
Perhaps the alternative would be better for all, making the other airlines more like Southwest. The customers and investors would prefer that.
As to the $350k, I think that is the high on United 747 with xxx years etc, I was not trying to indicate that it was anything but one end of the spectrum.
On SWA, there are a lot of areas where they are efficient besides any pay issues. Obviously if their 737 pay was that bad, people would not fly for them. On the other hand, when times are tough like now, there efficiency including pay rates enable them to keep going without the trama everyone else is going through.
Some would suggest the approach that they should be dragged to the same pay rates and the same inefficiencies that plgue everyone else.
Perhaps the alternative would be better for all, making the other airlines more like Southwest. The customers and investors would prefer that.
V70T5 said:
Where is John Stosell? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
It seems like everyone now wants to blame Southwest for something........anything......... since their [your] carrier is going down the toilet faster than a 20-pounder.
When you boys over at UAL, DAL, et al. signed those ridiculous contracts with massive pay raises we all knew it was a matter of time before the crap hit. Let me tell you - I am about as Pro-Union as they come; I served on my LEC at my previous carrier but sometimes you have to see the forest through the trees.
The simple fact of the matter is that ALPA and APA have absolutely NO leadership; neither in the MEC level or National!!! How long have the regional counterparts of the majors been warning the mainline guys that the RJ's were a force to be reckoned with? APA wanted nothing to do with Eagle!!! DAL wanted nothing to do with Comair!!! Now they all want the large RJ's to save their jobs.
Why are you so outraged with SWA pay yet you remain silent on the pay for the guys at Eagle, ASA, Comair, etc..... Eagle has been classified as a Major by DOT (has for a long time) but no one seems to have a problem with those guy making $20-something an hour!!! It’s a simple fact that arrogance and greed have skewed the leadership and the subsequent rank-n-file causing a cancerous tumor on this industry.
beytzim
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 202
The airline industry is pretty f'ed up!
I've flown with United and USAir forloughees. Both of them 'were' starting their third year pay (as F/Os on Airbusses) and making $10,000 a month. That is ridiculous. 120k for a 3rd yr FO flying 15 days a month, now c'mon. In an effort to always 'one-up' a competitors airlines' pay, the unions always try to pay higher and higher. When does it stop? When a 777 captain makes 500k?, 700k? No! when an airline files Ch.11!
The airline industry needed to change when RJs came out. This is just its way of doing things - Ch.11 or layoffs. I was on a flight a couple of weeks ago on a DL 767-400 nonstop, unrefuled from ATL to SAV - and Delta is supposed to be one of the better ones!
The future is very clear to me: The few surviving majors are only going to have wide-bodies. The 'regionals', which are really majors will be flying RJs (50,70 and 90 seaters). The SWs and JBs will be there flying their own niche in between the wide-bodies and RJs. The regionals will have peanuts and sodas as they do now. The majors will actually have food - because most flights will be int'l or intercontinental.
Pay among the majors will stay the same as it is now. Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously. Senior captains will make low six figures.
That's the future. You can choose to embrace it or deny it. Nevertheless, it will happen.
I've flown with United and USAir forloughees. Both of them 'were' starting their third year pay (as F/Os on Airbusses) and making $10,000 a month. That is ridiculous. 120k for a 3rd yr FO flying 15 days a month, now c'mon. In an effort to always 'one-up' a competitors airlines' pay, the unions always try to pay higher and higher. When does it stop? When a 777 captain makes 500k?, 700k? No! when an airline files Ch.11!
The airline industry needed to change when RJs came out. This is just its way of doing things - Ch.11 or layoffs. I was on a flight a couple of weeks ago on a DL 767-400 nonstop, unrefuled from ATL to SAV - and Delta is supposed to be one of the better ones!
The future is very clear to me: The few surviving majors are only going to have wide-bodies. The 'regionals', which are really majors will be flying RJs (50,70 and 90 seaters). The SWs and JBs will be there flying their own niche in between the wide-bodies and RJs. The regionals will have peanuts and sodas as they do now. The majors will actually have food - because most flights will be int'l or intercontinental.
Pay among the majors will stay the same as it is now. Pay for the regionals will be increase tremendously. Senior captains will make low six figures.
That's the future. You can choose to embrace it or deny it. Nevertheless, it will happen.
CCDiscoB
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2002
- Posts
- 779
Wrong
This is starting to sound similar to what Baseball is going through. MLB wants cheaper labor and the players are fighting them. The only difference between players and pilots is that the players are unified. Pilots as a whole will never be unified. Why, because of low time pilots that think 10K a month is ridiculous and will work for much less. After years of fighting our way through the “trenches” to gain the experience to be the responsible person to carry 200 people in flight, why we should be paid less than police officers and firefighters. Why shouldn’t we want to live comfortably, why are some pilots forcing our industry (professional pilots) to become nothing more than a blue collar machine operators. After all the training and simulators we’ve endured. 10K a month is the least we should be paid!!
This is starting to sound similar to what Baseball is going through. MLB wants cheaper labor and the players are fighting them. The only difference between players and pilots is that the players are unified. Pilots as a whole will never be unified. Why, because of low time pilots that think 10K a month is ridiculous and will work for much less. After years of fighting our way through the “trenches” to gain the experience to be the responsible person to carry 200 people in flight, why we should be paid less than police officers and firefighters. Why shouldn’t we want to live comfortably, why are some pilots forcing our industry (professional pilots) to become nothing more than a blue collar machine operators. After all the training and simulators we’ve endured. 10K a month is the least we should be paid!!
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