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AA makes offer to the APA----and it's.....well....uhhh

P

pave driver

Below is a sampling of the response from line pilots to the company's offer from Sound-Off;

want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table. Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal. It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: "not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal. Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss
 
P

pave driver

Parker and Kirby this past Sunday at their golf clubhouse eating lunch overheard by the wait staff:

Parker: Hey Kirbs, do we have another deadline to meet coming up?
Kirby: Oh yeah, that stupid pilot contract proposal.
Parker: Do we have anything.
Kirby: Ah sh!t, no...ha ha ha..Well, do you have anything to write on?
Parker: Here, just use this cocktail napkin. WAITRESS!!! WHERE THE HELL IS OUR 2 MORE PITCHERS OF BEER! WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!
Kirby: Uh, ya got anything to write with?
Parker: Just use your lipstick. Sheesh.
Kiby: Uh, okay...but it's my favorite color.
Parker: It clashes with your fingernail polish anyway.
Kirby: Okay, I wrote down 8 items we can surely get these pilot morons to accept.
Parker: Ha ha ha, perfect. Just tell them it's industry leading pay and don't mention industry leading contract.
Kirby: Okay, will do bro. Oh, did I tell you, the other day one of my house cooks chipped my kitchen marble in my 25,000 square foot house. You know which house I'm talking about? Ya know, the $12 million dollar one in Dallas I paid for with liquidated pilot pensions, er, um, I mean stock options? The marble is one-of-a-kind and can't be replaced! That b!tch! I fired her and will garnish her wages for the next 10 lifetimes and my lawyer said we can continue to collect from her future unborn grand kids for their lives as well...Ha ah ha.
Parker: Good one Kirbs, good one. Just buy another house, it's not worth the construction hassle.
 
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Captzaahlie

My kind of FOD!
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Posts
1,564
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18k ?
Parker and Kirby this past Sunday at their golf clubhouse eating lunch overheard by the wait staff:

Parker: Hey Kirbs, do we have another deadline to meet coming up?
Kirby: Oh yeah, that stupid pilot contract proposal.
Parker: Do we have anything.
Kirby: Ah sh!t, no...ha ha ha..Well, do you have anything to write on?
Parker: Here, just use this cocktail napkin. WAITRESS!!! WHERE THE HELL IS OUR 2 MORE PITCHERS OF BEER! WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!
Kirby: Uh, ya got anything to write with?
Parker: Just use your lipstick. Sheesh.
Kiby: Uh, okay...but it's my favorite color.
Parker: It clashes with your fingernail polish anyway.
Kirby: Okay, I wrote down 8 items we can surely get these pilot morons to accept.

Parker: Ha ha ha, perfect. Just tell them it's industry leading pay and don't mention industry leading contract.
Kirby: Okay, will do bro. Oh, did I tell you, the other day one of my house cooks chipped my kitchen marble in my 25,000 square foot house. You know which house I'm talking about? Ya know, the $12 million dollar one in Dallas I paid for with liquidated pilot pensions, er, um, I mean stock options? The marble is one-of-a-kind and can't be replaced! That b!tch! I fired her and will garnish her wages for the next 10 lifetimes and my lawyer said we can continue to collect from her future unborn grand kids for their lives as well...Ha ah ha.
Parker: Good one Kirbs, good one. Just buy another house, it's not worth the construction hassle.


Well Played Sir.....
:beer:
 

Captzaahlie

My kind of FOD!
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Posts
1,564
Total Time
18k ?
Parker and Kirby this past Sunday at their golf clubhouse eating lunch overheard by the wait staff:

Parker: Hey Kirbs, do we have another deadline to meet coming up?
Kirby: Oh yeah, that stupid pilot contract proposal.
Parker: Do we have anything.
Kirby: Ah sh!t, no...ha ha ha..Well, do you have anything to write on?
Parker: Here, just use this cocktail napkin. WAITRESS!!! WHERE THE HELL IS OUR 2 MORE PITCHERS OF BEER! WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!
Kirby: Uh, ya got anything to write with?
Parker: Just use your lipstick. Sheesh.
Kiby: Uh, okay...but it's my favorite color.
Parker: It clashes with your fingernail polish anyway.
Kirby: Okay, I wrote down 8 items we can surely get these pilot morons to accept.
Parker: Ha ha ha, perfect. Just tell them it's industry leading pay and don't mention industry leading contract.
Kirby: Okay, will do bro. Oh, did I tell you, the other day one of my house cooks chipped my kitchen marble in my 25,000 square foot house. You know which house I'm talking about? Ya know, the $12 million dollar one in Dallas I paid for with liquidated pilot pensions, er, um, I mean stock options? The marble is one-of-a-kind and can't be replaced! That b!tch! I fired her and will garnish her wages for the next 10 lifetimes and my lawyer said we can continue to collect from her future unborn grand kids for their lives as well...Ha ah ha.
Parker: Good one Kirbs, good one. Just buy another house, it's not worth the construction hassle.

The sad part is that its prob 80% all true......:puke:
 
P

pave driver

There is no reason for your actions and deceit Parker. It only epitomizes your true character. Hope your minions are reading these boards. Have another little taste in the following:

Thanks to the over 500 pilots who dialed in on short notice to yesterday’s LAX town hall telephone meeting. We have been following up with those pilots who were unable to get their questions answered in the allotted time or who asked for additional discussion. Good questions, focus and participation by West Coast pilots. The BOD is in session today as we send APA’s counter proposal across the street in a few hours. It will be posted to the APA website shortly thereafter for your individual review.

The yet untold story of the depth and length of involvement of APA operators during the removal of AMR management, the construction of the merger, and their behind the scenes communication with the financial community on behalf of AA's new management team that made this possible looms large in this JCBA process. This is no exaggeration - no other AA employee group could have delivered the leadership or results that APA’s relentless efforts did in making a positive change for our pilots and our airline. Doug Parker and his Airways team had absolutely no chance of being where they are today without APA's substantial help - above and below the radar.

In exchange APA expects to conclude this JCBA bargaining with a contract that reflects AA's leadership position in the industry and the key role APA played in the rescue of AA – without which this airline could well have cratered. On the other hand, if AAG executives plan to stiff-arm APA's membership in these talks, everything we’ve built together is thrown into jeopardy. While this is both avoidable and unnecessary this is also not USAir, and APA is not USAPA. Should AA's new management team proceed with the assumption that they can manage a disenfranchised pilot group the way they did at USAIR, it would be a serious misclculation on many levels. With the perfomance of American, there is no legitimate or prudent reason to go there.

“Asked whether it is reasonable to compare him to the industry's five giants. Parker responded: "I don't care about comparisons. I really don't. What we're doing, what I learned about a long time ago, is that it's (most important) to think of all these employees who do their jobs so well, but are so beholden to their leadership." Still, Parker said he has found a role model in Kelleher, who "really cares about the people who work for him. "Herb understands people so well -- that's in the airline," Parker said, noting that if Kelleher were talking with an employee and "if the president of the United States walked into the room, Herb wouldn't divert his attention," but rather would remain engaged in the conversation. Kelleher "is in a class by himself," Parker said. "I could never get there."

The Street 5/13/13




Delta’s CEO Richard Anderson has already figured out the Kelleher magic, Doug Parker has this watershed opportunity to prove he has as well.



Fraternally,



Steve And Bill




By Ted Reed | 11/14/14 - 06:45 AM EST
NEW YORK (TheStreet)

The rejection of a flight attendant contract and a contentious start to pilot contract talks have been disheartening for the management and workers at American Airlines (AAL).
In Atlanta, home of Delta (DAL), the reaction, no doubt, is somewhat different. Not only is a competitor having problems, but Delta's pilot contract and flight attendant compensation are being held up as models.



Must Read: American Airlines' Surprise Labor Issues Again Complicate a Merger



In a message to members on Wednesday, Keith Wilson, president of the Allied Pilots Association, which represents American pilots, praised Delta for its commitment to reward employees with profit-sharing, something American isn't offering....

…as recently as Oct. 26, Delta CEO Richard Anderson jabbed American and United (UAL), saying they do not offer profit-sharing and they therefore pay less than Delta does.

"What we're always proud about and what sets Delta off as a totally different company than United and American is our profit-sharing," Anderson said in his weekly telephone message to employees.

"For Delta people who have already received an early payment on their 2014 profit-sharing and, come February, will get the remainder of what is expected to be a total of more than $1 billion in profit-sharing paid to our employees, that means 15% on top of what your W2 would otherwise be," Anderson said. "So essentially, it's a 15% pay increase. No other airline is even coming close to that number.

"Some airlines don't have any of this and are proud of the fact that they don't have it," he said, adding, "Delta folks are by far the best paid in the industry."


On Wednesday, in an emailed message to members, APA's Wilson quoted (Delta’s) Anderson as saying that: "rewarding employees with pay for performance through profit-sharing ... drives revenue growth and better financial returns," and Wilson added, "American Airlines management evidently believes otherwise...management does not appear to be interested in providing our pilots with a compensation package comparable to industry leader Delta Air Lines. While initially proposed pay rates are fractionally higher than Delta's current pilot pay rates, there's little adjustment for the absence of profit-sharing, which this year will equal 15% of annual earnings for Delta pilots. This means that American Airlines pilots' compensation would continue to trail industry leader Delta by a significant margin."


He added that Delta pilots will soon negotiate a new contract that will likely surpass American's proposed pay rates.


American CEO Doug Parker has opposed profit-sharing, saying he would prefer to offer higher wages because profits cannot be assured.

 
P

pave driver

JCBA Update: Negotiations Continuing

As reported earlier in a hotline message, the APA Negotiating Committee presented management with a comprehensive counter-proposal today designed to address the deficiencies in management's initial JCBA proposals.

Management's negotiators responded by indicating they would like to review our proposal during the next couple of days and prepare a response. Accordingly, our negotiating teams will meet again early next week. The APA board of directors recessed its meeting mid-afternoon and will reconvene Tuesday afternoon.

Key elements of our comprehensive counter-proposal include the following:

Scope modifications (review details here with proposed changes shown in "track changes" form)
In lieu of profit-sharing, a pay component of 10 percent above the following pay rates:
Group I ? A 16.29 percent increase over the Jan. 1, 2015, MTA rate, but not less than the applicable first-year pay rate
Group II ? An increase to match DL 737-800 2015 pay rate
Group III ? An increase to match DL 767-300 2015 pay rate
Group IV ? An increase to match DL 777 2015 pay rate
Group V ? A 16.29 percent increase over the Jan. 1, 2015, MTA rate

3.5 percent increase on Jan. 1, 2016
3.5 percent increase on Jan. 1, 2017
3.5 percent increase on Jan. 1, 2018
3.5 percent increase on Jan. 1, 2019

Mid-contract compensation adjustment: On the earlier of:
The effective date of a new Delta Air Lines Pilot Agreement, or
The effective date of a new United Airlines Pilot Agreement
But not earlier than Jan. 1, 2017, pay rates in Section 3 will be adjusted to the higher of the rates in the AA JCBA, the DL CBA or the UA CBA
Make A321 pay equivalent to Group III pay
Average day value of 5:20 applied to "calendar day"
Length-of-service credit for pilots with furlough time
Improvements to Long Term Disability (LTD) benefit to include increase to monthly cap and duration
Fellow pilots, we are committed to securing a negotiated agreement commensurate with your sacrifices, your role in bringing the merger to fruition and your critical role in our revitalized airline's day-to-day success. As the pilots who fly for the world's largest airline ? a company producing the highest profits in its entire history ? nothing less will do.
 
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St. Nic

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All contract offers are Del-duh +

Genny will be reducing his blow hard postings once he's taken down a notch it two. Guy makes me sick!!!
 

OState597

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All contract offers are Del-duh +

Genny will be reducing his blow hard postings once he's taken down a notch it two. Guy makes me sick!!!

I think you might be a bigger moron than that arrogant pr!ck GL
 

General Lee

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Hey look, it's Dumb (St NIC) and Dumber(OState597). You guys couldn't get laid in a morgue. (Thanks Weird Science)

Look, quit bragging UNTIL you get the better contract, and then 3 months later you are surpassed again by DL. Also, if you don't get profit sharing, it won't exceed DL's pay. Next year the profits are expected to be even higher due to lower oil. Please get BOTH profit sharing and a significant raise, then everyone else will be helped. Until then, you are way behind. Good luck and get it fixed.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
P

pave driver

IF AAG accepts the above APA proposal (likely more BS will come from AAG, err..the ass Glass), anytime during the contract we would adjust to the highest of AA,UA,DL pay rates. The stupid point here is that the 10% above would once again be gone due to DL pilot's profit sharing. So, if DL exceeds our rates in 2016, our rates just match them and don't match them +10% and therefore we'd once again be behind. Does that make sense, or am I not reading it correctly?
 

General Lee

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IF AAG accepts the above APA proposal (likely more BS will come from AAG, err..the ass Glass), anytime during the contract we would adjust to the highest of AA,UA,DL pay rates. The stupid point here is that the 10% above would once again be gone due to DL pilot's profit sharing. So, if DL exceeds our rates in 2016, our rates just match them and don't match them +10% and therefore we'd once again be behind. Does that make sense, or am I not reading it correctly?

I think you are. Why not ask for 20% or more? If profit sharing equals about 20% this year (it was going to be double last years (8.125%, so a bit more than 16%, but lower oil this quarter could push it to 20%), and 25% next year. Throw in a new contract on top of that, and your union asking for 10% in exchange for profit sharing doesn't really make sense.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Turtle21

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lots
IF AAG accepts the above APA proposal (likely more BS will come from AAG, err..the ass Glass), anytime during the contract we would adjust to the highest of AA,UA,DL pay rates. The stupid point here is that the 10% above would once again be gone due to DL pilot's profit sharing. So, if DL exceeds our rates in 2016, our rates just match them and don't match them +10% and therefore we'd once again be behind. Does that make sense, or am I not reading it correctly?


Your standard of measure might be misplaced. DUI has a signed contract, the MOU, and if I remember correctly that lasts until 2019. DUI doesn't have any obligation to look at Delta, UAL, or anyone else. He has a contract. We are not in section 6 negotiations.

If DUI were to adjust the MOU upward because its the "right thing to do" then that would be nice. Do we expect DUI to do it because its "the right thing to do"?

With $4B profits and a DUI stated goal of being a world class airline, I agree the "right thing to do" is to correct salaries of all employees. But I am not optimistic about being a world class airline, unless one considers Walmart a world class retailer.
 

St. Nic

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Genital Gimp, you are the weakest link. Your beyond hope as having a decent conversation. Your duties as a Skywest dispatcher are getting to you sir. You are a fake
 

Jim

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Genital Gimp, you are the weakest link. Your beyond hope as having a decent conversation. Your duties as a Skywest dispatcher are getting to you sir. You are a fake
And you think anyone on this board thinks you have any shred of integrity?
 

General Lee

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A lot
I think plenty stand behind me. You are a off the Mark, as usual

Are you talking about your stint in jail again?



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

St. Nic

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Genital A deal is in the works. Delta +. Read it and weep!!!!
 
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