AA makes offer to the APA----and it's.....well....uhhh

[pave driver]

Ok, Dougwiser seems like a droid and is a terrible leader. That's the point, he doesn't understand leadership, and good leadership means rewarding people during good times, and being frank and honest during tough times. Otherwise, your employees lose faith in their jobs. Thanks for the history lesson.




Bye Bye---General Lee

Exactly, however any good leader knows that you lead people and manage things. You are correct although innacurate in claiming he is a terrible leader. He is much worse. He has no ethics nor morals.

Hey Kirby, Parker and Glass do you really think in this day and age with free flowing and almost instantaneous communication the pilots don't see right through you? How stupid do you think we are? Apparently, quite.

The following is APA statement in response to the pay proposal from the AAG top "leaders":

"The Highest Pay Rates Amongst Our Large, Network Peers" Versus Total Compensation

Management has characterized their pay proposal as containing the "highest pay rates amongst our large, network peers." That's accurate where pay rates are concerned, but it's an incomplete picture.

Management's proposal contains no accommodation for profit-sharing as part of pilots' total compensation, which is a widespread industry practice, with American Airlines and Spirit Airlines as the lone exceptions. For Delta Air Lines pilots, profit-sharing represents an approximately 15 percent boost on top of their 2014 pay rates. While hourly pay rates in management's initial proposal are fractionally higher than Delta's ? for example, on the 737-800, the proposed pay rates are 1 percent higher than Delta's ? the absence of profit-sharing or any adjustment for it means our total compensation would continue to trail what Delta pilots receive. Industry forecasts model that Delta will sustain its current profitability and will therefore continue paying additional compensation in the form of profit-sharing.

We will not accept an inadequate compensation proposal. Even if management is philosophically opposed to the industry standard of profit-sharing, we must ensure that the value provided to other pilots in the form of profit-sharing is also reflected in our pilots' total compensation. With American Airlines setting record quarterly profits and with forecasts of industry-leading profits and margins, it's time to get serious with a joint collective bargaining agreement that recognizes our contribution to that success.

During yesterday's session of the APA board of directors meeting, the Negotiating Committee provided a debrief of management's proposals. We have posted this update online for your reference.

 

[pave driver]

Hey Parker, you've had unlimited funds and resources and 4 months to provide the APA with a comprehensive proposal. What did you do? Give us 8 bullet points on a freaking napkin. You guys are a joke and the entire industry knows it. Oh you want to build a good relation with your employee groups - I forgot. Yeah right. Wallow like pigs in slop.

 

[800Dog]

As a Delta guy I wish you AA guys the best. Hope you get an industry leading contract. I care more about the profession than just my own little world at Delta. Whats good for you will be good for me come contract time. Hang in there!

 

[pave driver]

As a Delta guy I wish you AA guys the best. Hope you get an industry leading contract. I care more about the profession than just my own little world at Delta. Whats good for you will be good for me come contract time. Hang in there!

Thanks my fellow aviator. The APA is doing an excellent job and they know every tactic the ass Glass provides to the cross dressing Kirby and guzzling Dugwieser. Exhaling now. I still have hope and faith in my union leaders who are battle hardened and know every trick in the book by these clowns.

I pray we finalize a better contract to build upon for my Delta and United bubbas as well as the newhires.

 

[pave driver]

https://negotiations.alliedpilots.o...nkClick.aspx?fileticket=NlSGhK6ka2I=&tabid=41

 

[Bringupthebird]

Ok, Dougwiser seems like a droid and is a terrible leader. That's the point, he doesn't understand leadership, and good leadership means rewarding people during good times, and being frank and honest during tough times. Otherwise, your employees lose faith in their jobs. Thanks for the history lesson.

You nailed it! He is not a leader, he's just a guy who happened to be at the right place when the industry imploded. I don't think he's got the person skill set to be a real leader. But don't confuse a glad-handing, hail-fellow-well-met smooth talker with a leader. Franke never promised you anything, and sure enough, you never got it.

 

[Green]

https://negotiations.alliedpilots.o...nkClick.aspx?fileticket=NlSGhK6ka2I=&tabid=41

The link is password protected. Can you copy and paste the pertinent information?

 

[pave driver]

Sorry about the format:

Negotiating Committee JCBA
UpdateInitial Company Economic
Proposals to APA
11/13/2014 2First Year Pay
? 75% raise for Year 1 pay ($40 to
$70.13).
? Indexed to future rate changes
11/13/2014 3Group II Pay
? Group II Pay
? Dec 2014 = 18% increase
? Jan 2015 = 3% increase
? Jan 2016 = 3% increase
? Jan 2017 = 3% increase
? Jan 2018 = 3% increase
? Jan 2019 = 3% increase
11/13/2014 411/13/2014 5
Group II 12-Year CA

$215
$225
$235
$245
$255

Jan-15 Jan-16 Jan-17 Jan-18 Jan-19 Jan-20
DL 737-800
MTA
AA Proposal
APA Proposal
UA 737-80011/13/2014 6
AA Proposal vs MTAGroup IV Pay
? Group IV Pay
? Dec 2014 = 16% increase
? Jan 2015 = 3% increase
? Jan 2016 = 3% increase
? Jan 2017 = 3% increase
? Jan 2018 = 3% increase
? Jan 2019 = 3% increase
11/13/2014 7Group IV 12-Year CA
11/13/2014 8

$275.00
$285.00
$295.00
$305.00
$315.00

Jan-15 Jan-16 Jan-17 Jan-18 Jan-19 Jan-20
AA Proposal
APA Proposal
UA 777
DL 777
MTA11/13/2014 9
AA Proposal vs MTACompany Ask
Contingent on Association
acceptance of the following 8 items
11/13/2014 1011/13/2014 11
? Scope
? Increase the 65 Seat limitation to 70 seats
? Overnight Simulator Sessions for
Landing Currency11/13/2014 12
? Short Call Reserve Report
? Must be able to promptly report for a sequence
? Promptly is generally expected to report within two
(2) hours
? Combine International & Domestic
Divisions11/13/2014 13
? Elimination of HBT exception from
FAR 117
? Eliminate the Home Base Time carve out
and replace it with FAR 117 minimums11/13/2014 14
? Vacancy Bids / Hold from Training
? Modify the vacancy bid to allow for
multiple month bids
? Company may accelerate Effective Dates
? Pilot withhold maximum 12 months 11/13/2014 15
? Benefits Excise Tax
? Apply to Standard & Core Medical Plans
? If threshold for the tax (Cadillac Tax
2018) is exceeded in the Affordable Care
Act, Co and APA will meet to reduce the
benefit below the threshold
? If no agreement Arb Block will decide11/13/2014 16
? Duration
? Contract Amendable date extended to
January 1, 2020
? LOA 13-01 (HRA) Extended to
December 31, 201911/13/2014 17
? Company agrees to Current TA?s
? International Override on Mexico Flights
? Uniforms
? Moving Expenses
? Paycheck Process
? Training Facilities
Tentative Agreements11/13/2014 18
? Post Training Rest Without DFP?s
? Base Availability after Qualification
Displacement
? Passport Reimbursement
? Duty With Association
? Terrorism Hostage Benefits11/13/2014 19
? International Override (language change
for combining Dom and Intl divisions)
? Training Subcommittee (will continue
outside of the JCBA)
Individually Agreed Items11/13/2014 20
? Lodging
? No Requirement to layover at FA hotel
? Elimination of Double Occupancy
? Fifteen days to resolve hotel issues
? Positive Space for Union Hotel Committee
members inspections and other improvements11/13/2014 21
? Vacation
? Develop a system to view awarded vacation,
re-award / re-bid open weeks and trade weeks
? Bid using 52 separate 7-day periods (West bid
calendar)
? Vacation Week 0000 Monday thru 2359
Sunday
? Vacation day 24 hours in domicile using HBT11/13/2014 22
? DH for Sick on Duty (sick pilot may fly
home instead of to domicile)
? Rapid Reaccrual (solution for West)
? Sick Hours Paid While Awaiting LTD (A
pilot on long term sick may designate the
number of hours for which he will be
paid ? MALV to individual IMAX11/13/2014 23
? Sick Leave Prior to LTD
? Pilot choice on how much sick to use
? Pilot may forego the use of sick leave after 3
months waiting period
? Pilot may designate a specific amount of sick
leave to avoid exhausting all sick leave
? Pilots not making an election will be required
to use all sick prior to commencing LTD11/13/2014 24
? FMLA (delete letter 04-12)
? 4 Must Have Days (Reserve pilots may
designate 4 non holiday must have days
each year)
? Revise Section 15.C.4.B (Reserve flying
into or out of a day off will be paid above
guarantee ? no credit)11/13/2014 25
? Revise Section 15
? Pick up in Base - Reserve pilots may
volunteer to fly on, into or out of a DFP
? Pick up out of Base - Reserve pilots may
volunteer to fly on, into or out of a DFP11/13/2014 26
? Urgent Need Bypass - at company option
a qualified pilot in position may be
awarded the a segment. Such pilot will be
paid but not credited. A sequence will be
created and awarded for pay purpose thru
the normal filling of open time process.
Such pilot will be paid and credited.11/13/2014 27
? Travel
? Company will provide one Positive Space
(D1/D2) qualified dependent of a retiring pilot
on the last sequence of the pilots career
? Positive Space travel for Association staff
representatives to attend negotiations
? Life Insurance ($10,000 advance for a
death)? Deadhead
? Company shall book DH when pairings
are published and provide pilot with
record locator
? DH pilots may pre-board and and valet
bags if bins are full
11/13/2014 2811/13/2014 29
? Recurrent Disability (extended to 90
days)
? Additional options for use of HRA ?
retiree medical, dental, vision, long term
care premiums as well as unreimbursed
retiree medical, dental, and vision11/13/2014 30
Resubmit the Following Proposals
? Increase Pay to offset Lack of Profit
Sharing
? Calendar Day and 5:30
? A321 Equivalent to Group 3 pay
? LOS
Committee RecommendationsBoard Guidance
The Negotiating Committee is awaiting
APA Board guidance on the disposition
of the remaining open items
11/13/2014 31APA?s initial proposals are available on
the on APA pilots web page ?JCBA
Roadmap?
Please contact your Domicile
Representative if you have any questions
11/13/2014 32

 

[pave driver]

APA update:

Wednesday's telephonic Town Hall meeting was a tremendous success. During the one hour meeting there were more than 2700 participants. The meeting was scheduled as a joint CLT and PHL meeting, but subsequently the DFW and LGA reps requested to be able to participate in a supportive role, and we gladly accepted.

This is a great tool that the APA utilizes to disseminate information out to the pilots, and we plan to use it regularly. Of course with so many participants on both the phone and internet, many did not get the opportunity to ask a question. This venue is mainly designed to be a good way to just listen in and get the latest hot topic information. Given the recent contract pass by the Company, the questions were all centered on the contract and what to expect. We did take some questions from both DFW and LGA pilots and the feedback was very good.



Contract Negotiations

This week the BOD met in closed session to continue discussions on a counter to the company’s proposal. Although our negotiators have been meeting with the company for months now, the company’s offer was comprised of simply pay rates with a quid of 8 concessions on our side. As noted in President Keith Wilson’s letter, this proposal is wholly inadequate and incomplete. The comprehensive counter proposal was passed to the company today. This proposal will be available on the APA website after the company has received it. We like the openness that APA has with its members to share everything possible as soon as possible.

This is a defining moment for both the pilots and the Company. For the first time in a more than a decade we have an opportunity to change the dysfunctional culture between the pilots and the Company. If this management decides to finally recognize the value of a motivated and loyal pilot group, the next 5 years could be a time of unprecedented cooperation and enthusiasm for all involved. By contrast, if they choose to be opportunistic and force a bankruptcy era contract on the pilot group during a period of historic industry profits, they will have 5 years of extreme animosity translating into an extremely toxic work environment and lagging profits.

The companies’ interpretation and subsequent offer of an “industry leading” contract for the F/A’s was recently rejected by the APFA. The most recent offer to the APA was neither “industry leading” nor “industry standard”

It was reported, in a recent employee meeting at Delta called "Velvet 360" Delta's CEO, Richard Anderson stated: American is trying to mimic everything we do, but frankly they will never catch up to us, because they don't invest in their People.

In light of the enormous profits experienced by AAG, our requests are very reasonable compared to our peers in the industry, we are hopeful that management will realize the value of a motivated work force and respond accordingly.

Fly Safe and Fly Smart,

 

[Carl S.]

APA counter this afternoon, timeline looks to be going over the deadline tonight if progress continues without pulling the arbitration cord. Just think, USAPA did nothing for 6 plus years but to delay us finally going forward as we seem to be doing today.

 

[pave driver]

Below is a sampling of the response from line pilots to the company's offer from Sound-Off;

want to go to Arbitration
Insulting. Move scope from one area to another and tell us they pulled scope off the table. Insulting. Pay proposal that doesn't include profit sharing. Insulting. qol issues go unresolved.
THE LARGEST AIRLINE IN THE WORLD AND THEY PUT THIS ACROSS THE TABLE?
This is an insult from the company. Along with the pay there has to be quality of life improvements.
Send this back to them and tell them to come up with a real proposal.
Please reject this proposal and accept no concessions on SCOPE.
Unless there is something behind the curtain to all of this in our "quality of life" then I support this being rejected at the board level.
I hope that you are as insulted as I am. I am ready for arbitration
Clearly, IMO, the BOD will need to flatly reject and counter this slap in the face. No need to involve the membership
Please, no more extensions, no more delays. Proceed with the agreed to cost-neutral Arbitration.
Just say no! Hand them back their sheet of paper and tell them to try again when they truly value our service. The raise is 16 months away and that is fine.
No QOL Improvements = No Vote
Delta Book rates plus 3 compounded...
NO QUID (they already have that... THE AIRLINE)
NO contract DURATION extension
No Extension!
No Give on SCOPE!
No concessions! We already gave - TWICE
NO Middle of the night landings! That is just another Quality of Life give away.
NO NO NO!
Please do NOT send this piece of garbage proposal to a vote
I will vote no on anything that even resembles this POS.
the company offer is not adequate to even consider for a five year contract. Return that piece of paper to the sender.
Please do not negotiate from this insult.
Industry Leading Contract NOW!!
Absolutely not. Go to arbitration
The company's proposal is not only NOT comprehensive, it is NOT "industry leading."
No to Parker.
The "comprehensive non-proposal" from Kirby/Parker is DOA.
What Kirby put on the table is a joke
Not only was the "offer" insulting; the manner in which it was delivered (talking points with little specifics) was disgusting.
We pilots do an A+ job for a company that makes A+ profits. This "proposal" is a D-
A total slap in the face! Pay rates would have to go up another 15% if they refuse profit sharing.
They blew it. Only going to do my job & no one else's. So much for a new day.
Industry lagging W2 with industry lagging work rules and neglected QOL issues is an insult to every pilot here
Please vote no on the company proposal. It's an insult and I for one would rather wait another year to attain already agreed upon pay rates without all of the give backs
Disgusted. Disrespectful. A class of 5th graders could have came up with a more "comprehensive" proposal!
To be clear - AAs offer is wholly unacceptable.
does not take into account what Delta is really making or going to make with profit sharing
Make an Industry leading counter and put the ball back in their court.
This is at least 20-25% behind Delta. Our best leverage is to terminate all cooperation if we do not receive a Delta contract
Tell them to go to hell, never expect anybody to do more than their job, and we will see you in arbitration.
Hope they like a United/Continental outcome versus a Delta/Northwest!
The membership pilots just got a swift kick in the nuts. I think we are all on the same page going forward that this "offer" is DOA.
Please vote NO and AAG management will have to live with the consequences!
Doug Parker was quoted as saying that we'll get a Delta contract when we make Delta profits. Well, we've exceeded Delta's profits, and virtually all analysts agree that AA will continue to make profits of at least $4 billion per year into the foreseeable future.
"DAL + 3%" is industry lagging even without considering profit sharing. We need to get DAL's "new 2015" pay rates plus profit sharing.
You granted an extension for this proposal! Pathetic! Time to act like a union! Nothing has changed
Ask them if they want a DAL merger or a United operation.
After seeing the pathetic offer by management, I realized this management team is only different in name
You have got to be kidding me?!!!
In light of the totally unacceptable proposal from management, and in light of the staggering profits currently being made by this company, it is clear that the tactics of APA have to change.
No Way!
2015 pay rates below 2001 rates!
No profit sharing!
Please send the management "comprehensive" proposal back to them with a big red NO scribbled on it.
If you chose to negotiate with them again please let them know that the honeymoon is definitely over with the pilots of APA and that they have wasted a golden opportunity to get cooperation and more productivity from the pilots.
falls way short of delta... No thx
The proposal is unacceptable. Please do not send this POS to the membership. The new management is the same as the old. It's obvious they do not require our goodwill, just send it to arbitration and be done with it. Maybe Delta will get a raise? We might be better off....
The company offer is solely inadequate. I am prepared to wait till 2016 for my raise as contractually agreed upon To sum up……F&%# THEM!!!
The company trumpeted their carefully worded "industry leading pay" (not contract) DAL+3% to make us look like the bad guys when we turn it down.
INSULTING.
In light of the Comprehensive Proposal grab, I am asking the BoDs to NOT vote on the proposal. Just send it back
APA needs to officially make LOS a prerequisite to negotiations.
No Extension and Industry leading Contract. I vote to go to arbitration/cost neutral contract if need be instead of accepting this company proposal
Not even anywhere close to actual "Delta +3%". Send it back. I'll take arbitration.
The Proposal is DOA.
No Arbitration
NO CHANGES TO SCOPE
a LIMITED EXTENSION only IF there is basis for Negotiation
This is a complete NON STARTER!!!!! No mention or movement on any of the critical issue the pilots absolutely REQUIRE!!
Please send this junk back to Parker, don't vote on it and certainly please do not send to us.
Please strongly consider this deal and send it to the members.
We have been played...... You are forgiven.....Now let's get REAL with the Membership about HERE AND NOW!
Spin it any way you want, I have a right to vote. Send it to the membership.
I would rather make less money than give up scope or work rules!
Send the proposal to the membership for a vote.
Not one seat. No amount of $ justifies an increase in scope
Enough is enough! No more extensions. The company has had plenty of time to do the right thing. If we do not have an honest proposal by the deadline, I'm okay with arbitration.
I simply want to add my name to the long list of pilots that ask you to stand firm and insist on an ILC
We need an Industry Leading Contract NOW!
Refuse to counter nor meet with management. (especially this "son of Brundreg" dude). A three word response sends a huge message to all parties: "not good enough".
The 3% a year is not even joke level. We need ISC!!
please turn down this proposal, it is insulting to our profession.
You will need to get much higher pay rates without profit sharing as part of the deal. Otherwise I see no reason to vote for the "Economic Package"
Please don't even bother voting on the company proposal. Just send it back. It only showed that the company has no respect for us. This proposal looks as if it was thrown together in a meeting that couldn't have taken more than 2 hours. It's a joke.
Put it a paper bag, poop on it, light it on fire and leave on the CP doorstep
Totally lacking any meaningful contract advancements, it was far short of adequately addressing our concerns.
All 8 are not even a consideration for me to compromise. We are the most profitable airline. Please act accordingly
To quote The Who… Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

 

[pave driver]

Parker and Kirby this past Sunday at their golf clubhouse eating lunch overheard by the wait staff:

Parker: Hey Kirbs, do we have another deadline to meet coming up?
Kirby: Oh yeah, that stupid pilot contract proposal.
Parker: Do we have anything.
Kirby: Ah sh!t, no...ha ha ha..Well, do you have anything to write on?
Parker: Here, just use this cocktail napkin. WAITRESS!!! WHERE THE HELL IS OUR 2 MORE PITCHERS OF BEER! WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!
Kirby: Uh, ya got anything to write with?
Parker: Just use your lipstick. Sheesh.
Kiby: Uh, okay...but it's my favorite color.
Parker: It clashes with your fingernail polish anyway.
Kirby: Okay, I wrote down 8 items we can surely get these pilot morons to accept.
Parker: Ha ha ha, perfect. Just tell them it's industry leading pay and don't mention industry leading contract.
Kirby: Okay, will do bro. Oh, did I tell you, the other day one of my house cooks chipped my kitchen marble in my 25,000 square foot house. You know which house I'm talking about? Ya know, the $12 million dollar one in Dallas I paid for with liquidated pilot pensions, er, um, I mean stock options? The marble is one-of-a-kind and can't be replaced! That b!tch! I fired her and will garnish her wages for the next 10 lifetimes and my lawyer said we can continue to collect from her future unborn grand kids for their lives as well...Ha ah ha.
Parker: Good one Kirbs, good one. Just buy another house, it's not worth the construction hassle.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Parker and Kirby this past Sunday at their golf clubhouse eating lunch overheard by the wait staff:

Parker: Hey Kirbs, do we have another deadline to meet coming up?
Kirby: Oh yeah, that stupid pilot contract proposal.
Parker: Do we have anything.
Kirby: Ah sh!t, no...ha ha ha..Well, do you have anything to write on?
Parker: Here, just use this cocktail napkin. WAITRESS!!! WHERE THE HELL IS OUR 2 MORE PITCHERS OF BEER! WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!
Kirby: Uh, ya got anything to write with?
Parker: Just use your lipstick. Sheesh.
Kiby: Uh, okay...but it's my favorite color.
Parker: It clashes with your fingernail polish anyway.
Kirby: Okay, I wrote down 8 items we can surely get these pilot morons to accept.

Parker: Ha ha ha, perfect. Just tell them it's industry leading pay and don't mention industry leading contract.
Kirby: Okay, will do bro. Oh, did I tell you, the other day one of my house cooks chipped my kitchen marble in my 25,000 square foot house. You know which house I'm talking about? Ya know, the $12 million dollar one in Dallas I paid for with liquidated pilot pensions, er, um, I mean stock options? The marble is one-of-a-kind and can't be replaced! That b!tch! I fired her and will garnish her wages for the next 10 lifetimes and my lawyer said we can continue to collect from her future unborn grand kids for their lives as well...Ha ah ha.
Parker: Good one Kirbs, good one. Just buy another house, it's not worth the construction hassle.

Well Played Sir.....
:beer:

 

[Captzaahlie]

Parker and Kirby this past Sunday at their golf clubhouse eating lunch overheard by the wait staff:

Parker: Hey Kirbs, do we have another deadline to meet coming up?
Kirby: Oh yeah, that stupid pilot contract proposal.
Parker: Do we have anything.
Kirby: Ah sh!t, no...ha ha ha..Well, do you have anything to write on?
Parker: Here, just use this cocktail napkin. WAITRESS!!! WHERE THE HELL IS OUR 2 MORE PITCHERS OF BEER! WTF IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE!
Kirby: Uh, ya got anything to write with?
Parker: Just use your lipstick. Sheesh.
Kiby: Uh, okay...but it's my favorite color.
Parker: It clashes with your fingernail polish anyway.
Kirby: Okay, I wrote down 8 items we can surely get these pilot morons to accept.
Parker: Ha ha ha, perfect. Just tell them it's industry leading pay and don't mention industry leading contract.
Kirby: Okay, will do bro. Oh, did I tell you, the other day one of my house cooks chipped my kitchen marble in my 25,000 square foot house. You know which house I'm talking about? Ya know, the $12 million dollar one in Dallas I paid for with liquidated pilot pensions, er, um, I mean stock options? The marble is one-of-a-kind and can't be replaced! That b!tch! I fired her and will garnish her wages for the next 10 lifetimes and my lawyer said we can continue to collect from her future unborn grand kids for their lives as well...Ha ah ha.
Parker: Good one Kirbs, good one. Just buy another house, it's not worth the construction hassle.

The sad part is that its prob 80% all true......uke:

 

[pave driver]

Well Played Sir.....
:beer:

Thank you. I'm here all day.