• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

AA makes offer to the APA----and it's.....well....uhhh

Freebrd

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2003
Posts
2,665
Total Time
44,000
GL,

Not sure why you seem to be taking it personally but we are AGREEING with you that AA's proposal falls seriously short of an ILC, much less what Delta has. Trust me, we don't want Delta's current contract - we want Delta's current contract plus around 20% more in EVERY area.

In other words, we want to lead the industry for once.

We're right there with ya in criticizing what AA pushed in front of us. We are not attacking your beloved airline.

Just so we're clear.

73

Welcome to the world of Jenny (GL) taunting pilot groups on FI. She started with the regionals, then SWA, and now that AA is part of the USAir mess you're next I guess. A sad individual indeed. She's a frustrated wannabe dispatcher for some airline out in Utah. Unfortunately there are some on here who fall for her BS. She's also known as Merciful Fate, On Your Six, and who knows what else. :rolleyes:
 

aa73

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 12, 2004
Posts
2,075
Total Time
10K
Freebird,

Not sure why you are assuming GL is a lady, and not a Delta pilot, to boot? He's had some good info over the years and I never doubted the fact that he's a pilot for Delta. Does he vigorously defend Delta to a fault, yes... who cares? I probably would too if I worked for them, truly the best legacy to work for - a company that takes care of its employees and it shows.

I'm just not sure why anyone would assume the identity of someone they're not on this site and I certainly don't think anyone really does... I mean, what's there to hide? All we're talking about is the industry. So I think you're mistaken, just curious why you trash him constantly.

Look at my profile and my experience on the left, everything there is dead on accurate and I really have no reason to alter it or assume another identity.i mean, we're all professional pilots, how old are you to be acting this way!
 
Last edited:

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
GL,

Not sure why you seem to be taking it personally but we are AGREEING with you that AA's proposal falls seriously short of an ILC, much less what Delta has. Trust me, we don't want Delta's current contract - we want Delta's current contract plus around 20% more in EVERY area.

In other words, we want to lead the industry for once.

We're right there with ya in criticizing what AA pushed in front of us. We are not attacking your beloved airline.

Just so we're clear.

73

I hear ya 73, and I hope it happens.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Carl S.

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
Posts
481
Total Time
15K+
Epic low ball offer, but will we get a counter or just go to arbitration is the questions?
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Epic low ball offer, but will we get a counter or just go to arbitration is the questions?

Maybe you'll wait until 16 and get what DL gets. RA knows about your "me too" clause, and that can be both good and bad. I personally hope you get a big raise now, and the others then go higher after that. That's how this is supposed to work, right?


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
P

pave driver

Maybe you'll wait until 16 and get what DL gets. RA knows about your "me too" clause, and that can be both good and bad. I personally hope you get a big raise now, and the others then go higher after that. That's how this is supposed to work, right?


Bye Bye---General Lee

Okay, so, after reading every bit of information I can find, including bios of Glass (plus his firm), Parker, Kirby and their entire lackership team, my conclusion? (it may vary with more information in the future, is the following):

It saddens me to say for all involved, and it's sad for the entire industry, the AAG leadership is the most dishonest group of people I have ever known. Many warned me. Mostly the old timers.

I will, at this snapshot in time, discourage any new pilot to come to AA now because these people DO NOT CARE A SH!T about their employees and NEVER will. They will do everything in their power to outsource not only domestic, but the heavy flying we do in the future. What a load of lies and deceit. I fell for it again, and shame on me. I was furloughed before and it sucks.

For my brothas at AA, please please please read and study your contract and HOLD THEM TO IT NOW!!! Do your job and no one elses. Wholy moley, how times turn quickly. GL- you're right. Go to Delta. I think Anderson has a good heart and that is very important.

Peace to all and have a good holiday season with you and your families.
 
Last edited:

Bringupthebird

Grumpy? Who-Me?
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Posts
2,182
Total Time
16120
I don't blame Parker one bit. The east pilots chose leaders who preferred to fight the west for 9 years rather than try to improve their contract and consequently the starting point for future negotiations.

Remember that he unilaterally decided that he would not negotiate the west pilot contract separately even though it was open and USAPA backed him up. He does have the power to step in when he wants to and he is choosing not to step in and say that the West pilots will be given a seat at the table. His go-to strategy of letting the pilots spin their wheels in the mud while he laughs all the way to the bank has worked very well so far. And the east has still stuck with the same cast of characters that enabled Parker in the past.

So don't blame Parker. Blame those who permit non-leaders to be in power and seal the fate of others. He's seen them and beaten them before and does not take them seriously. Bring in a team that is dedicated solely to unity and you will see much better comprehensive openers from Parker.

Otherwise stay home and let the other reps do the hard work.
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Okay, so, after reading every bit of information I can find, including bios of Glass (plus his firm), Parker, Kirby and their entire lackership team, my conclusion? (it may vary with more information in the future, is the following):

It saddens me to say for all involved, and it's sad for the entire industry, the AAG leadership is the most dishonest group of people I have ever known. Many warned me. Mostly the old timers.

I will, at this snapshot in time, discourage any new pilot to come to AA now because these people DO NOT CARE A SH!T about their employees and NEVER will. They will do everything in their power to outsource not only domestic, but the heavy flying we do in the future. What a load of lies and deceit. I fell for it again, and shame on me. I was furloughed before and it sucks.

For my brothas at AA, please please please read and study your contract and HOLD THEM TO IT NOW!!! Do your job and no one elses. Wholy moley, how times turn quickly. GL- you're right. Go to Delta. I think Anderson has a good heart and that is very important.

Peace to all and have a good holiday season with you and your families.


Pave,

I truly hope you guys get a better contract, but I've never seen Parker as a generous person, especially during the East/West stuff at USAir. I think he may have enjoyed the infighting between the groups. I hope the APA goes after more, and the whole industry gets higher pay as a result.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Bringupthebird

Grumpy? Who-Me?
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Posts
2,182
Total Time
16120
When it came to pilot pay, Rickenbacker wasn't generous, Patterson wasn't generous, Borman wasn't generous, Six wasn't generous, Ferris wasn't generous, Wolfe wasn't generous, Trippe wasn't generous, Howard Hughes wasn't generous, C.E. Woolman wasn't generous, C.R.Smith wasn't generous, Tom Braniff wasn't generous, Tom Davis wasn't generous...

If we relied on the generosity of airline management, there would be no pilots union. These men acted in their best interest to avoid labor strife and buy peace in good times and extract concessions in bad times.
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
When it came to pilot pay, Rickenbacker wasn't generous, Patterson wasn't generous, Borman wasn't generous, Six wasn't generous, Ferris wasn't generous, Wolfe wasn't generous, Trippe wasn't generous, Howard Hughes wasn't generous, C.E. Woolman wasn't generous, C.R.Smith wasn't generous, Tom Braniff wasn't generous, Tom Davis wasn't generous...

If we relied on the generosity of airline management, there would be no pilots union. These men acted in their best interest to avoid labor strife and buy peace in good times and extract concessions in bad times.


Ok, Dougwiser seems like a droid and is a terrible leader. That's the point, he doesn't understand leadership, and good leadership means rewarding people during good times, and being frank and honest during tough times. Otherwise, your employees lose faith in their jobs. Thanks for the history lesson.




Bye Bye---General Lee
 
P

pave driver

Ok, Dougwiser seems like a droid and is a terrible leader. That's the point, he doesn't understand leadership, and good leadership means rewarding people during good times, and being frank and honest during tough times. Otherwise, your employees lose faith in their jobs. Thanks for the history lesson.




Bye Bye---General Lee

Exactly, however any good leader knows that you lead people and manage things. You are correct although innacurate in claiming he is a terrible leader. He is much worse. He has no ethics nor morals.

Hey Kirby, Parker and Glass do you really think in this day and age with free flowing and almost instantaneous communication the pilots don't see right through you? How stupid do you think we are? Apparently, quite.

The following is APA statement in response to the pay proposal from the AAG top "leaders":

"The Highest Pay Rates Amongst Our Large, Network Peers" Versus Total Compensation

Management has characterized their pay proposal as containing the "highest pay rates amongst our large, network peers." That's accurate where pay rates are concerned, but it's an incomplete picture.

Management's proposal contains no accommodation for profit-sharing as part of pilots' total compensation, which is a widespread industry practice, with American Airlines and Spirit Airlines as the lone exceptions. For Delta Air Lines pilots, profit-sharing represents an approximately 15 percent boost on top of their 2014 pay rates. While hourly pay rates in management's initial proposal are fractionally higher than Delta's ? for example, on the 737-800, the proposed pay rates are 1 percent higher than Delta's ? the absence of profit-sharing or any adjustment for it means our total compensation would continue to trail what Delta pilots receive. Industry forecasts model that Delta will sustain its current profitability and will therefore continue paying additional compensation in the form of profit-sharing.

We will not accept an inadequate compensation proposal. Even if management is philosophically opposed to the industry standard of profit-sharing, we must ensure that the value provided to other pilots in the form of profit-sharing is also reflected in our pilots' total compensation. With American Airlines setting record quarterly profits and with forecasts of industry-leading profits and margins, it's time to get serious with a joint collective bargaining agreement that recognizes our contribution to that success.

During yesterday's session of the APA board of directors meeting, the Negotiating Committee provided a debrief of management's proposals. We have posted this update online for your reference.
 
Last edited:
P

pave driver

Hey Parker, you've had unlimited funds and resources and 4 months to provide the APA with a comprehensive proposal. What did you do? Give us 8 bullet points on a freaking napkin. You guys are a joke and the entire industry knows it. Oh you want to build a good relation with your employee groups - I forgot. Yeah right. Wallow like pigs in slop.
 

800Dog

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2005
Posts
763
Total Time
Alot
As a Delta guy I wish you AA guys the best. Hope you get an industry leading contract. I care more about the profession than just my own little world at Delta. Whats good for you will be good for me come contract time. Hang in there!
 
P

pave driver

As a Delta guy I wish you AA guys the best. Hope you get an industry leading contract. I care more about the profession than just my own little world at Delta. Whats good for you will be good for me come contract time. Hang in there!

Thanks my fellow aviator. The APA is doing an excellent job and they know every tactic the ass Glass provides to the cross dressing Kirby and guzzling Dugwieser. Exhaling now. I still have hope and faith in my union leaders who are battle hardened and know every trick in the book by these clowns.

I pray we finalize a better contract to build upon for my Delta and United bubbas as well as the newhires.
 

Bringupthebird

Grumpy? Who-Me?
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
Posts
2,182
Total Time
16120
Ok, Dougwiser seems like a droid and is a terrible leader. That's the point, he doesn't understand leadership, and good leadership means rewarding people during good times, and being frank and honest during tough times. Otherwise, your employees lose faith in their jobs. Thanks for the history lesson.
You nailed it! He is not a leader, he's just a guy who happened to be at the right place when the industry imploded. I don't think he's got the person skill set to be a real leader. But don't confuse a glad-handing, hail-fellow-well-met smooth talker with a leader. Franke never promised you anything, and sure enough, you never got it.
 
P

pave driver

Sorry about the format:

Negotiating Committee JCBA
UpdateInitial Company Economic
Proposals to APA
11/13/2014 2First Year Pay
? 75% raise for Year 1 pay ($40 to
$70.13).
? Indexed to future rate changes
11/13/2014 3Group II Pay
? Group II Pay
? Dec 2014 = 18% increase
? Jan 2015 = 3% increase
? Jan 2016 = 3% increase
? Jan 2017 = 3% increase
? Jan 2018 = 3% increase
? Jan 2019 = 3% increase
11/13/2014 411/13/2014 5
Group II 12-Year CA

$215
$225
$235
$245
$255

Jan-15 Jan-16 Jan-17 Jan-18 Jan-19 Jan-20
DL 737-800
MTA
AA Proposal
APA Proposal
UA 737-80011/13/2014 6
AA Proposal vs MTAGroup IV Pay
? Group IV Pay
? Dec 2014 = 16% increase
? Jan 2015 = 3% increase
? Jan 2016 = 3% increase
? Jan 2017 = 3% increase
? Jan 2018 = 3% increase
? Jan 2019 = 3% increase
11/13/2014 7Group IV 12-Year CA
11/13/2014 8

$275.00
$285.00
$295.00
$305.00
$315.00

Jan-15 Jan-16 Jan-17 Jan-18 Jan-19 Jan-20
AA Proposal
APA Proposal
UA 777
DL 777
MTA11/13/2014 9
AA Proposal vs MTACompany Ask
Contingent on Association
acceptance of the following 8 items
11/13/2014 1011/13/2014 11
? Scope
? Increase the 65 Seat limitation to 70 seats
? Overnight Simulator Sessions for
Landing Currency11/13/2014 12
? Short Call Reserve Report
? Must be able to promptly report for a sequence
? Promptly is generally expected to report within two
(2) hours
? Combine International & Domestic
Divisions11/13/2014 13
? Elimination of HBT exception from
FAR 117
? Eliminate the Home Base Time carve out
and replace it with FAR 117 minimums11/13/2014 14
? Vacancy Bids / Hold from Training
? Modify the vacancy bid to allow for
multiple month bids
? Company may accelerate Effective Dates
? Pilot withhold maximum 12 months 11/13/2014 15
? Benefits Excise Tax
? Apply to Standard & Core Medical Plans
? If threshold for the tax (Cadillac Tax
2018) is exceeded in the Affordable Care
Act, Co and APA will meet to reduce the
benefit below the threshold
? If no agreement Arb Block will decide11/13/2014 16
? Duration
? Contract Amendable date extended to
January 1, 2020
? LOA 13-01 (HRA) Extended to
December 31, 201911/13/2014 17
? Company agrees to Current TA?s
? International Override on Mexico Flights
? Uniforms
? Moving Expenses
? Paycheck Process
? Training Facilities
Tentative Agreements11/13/2014 18
? Post Training Rest Without DFP?s
? Base Availability after Qualification
Displacement
? Passport Reimbursement
? Duty With Association
? Terrorism Hostage Benefits11/13/2014 19
? International Override (language change
for combining Dom and Intl divisions)
? Training Subcommittee (will continue
outside of the JCBA)
Individually Agreed Items11/13/2014 20
? Lodging
? No Requirement to layover at FA hotel
? Elimination of Double Occupancy
? Fifteen days to resolve hotel issues
? Positive Space for Union Hotel Committee
members inspections and other improvements11/13/2014 21
? Vacation
? Develop a system to view awarded vacation,
re-award / re-bid open weeks and trade weeks
? Bid using 52 separate 7-day periods (West bid
calendar)
? Vacation Week 0000 Monday thru 2359
Sunday
? Vacation day 24 hours in domicile using HBT11/13/2014 22
? DH for Sick on Duty (sick pilot may fly
home instead of to domicile)
? Rapid Reaccrual (solution for West)
? Sick Hours Paid While Awaiting LTD (A
pilot on long term sick may designate the
number of hours for which he will be
paid ? MALV to individual IMAX11/13/2014 23
? Sick Leave Prior to LTD
? Pilot choice on how much sick to use
? Pilot may forego the use of sick leave after 3
months waiting period
? Pilot may designate a specific amount of sick
leave to avoid exhausting all sick leave
? Pilots not making an election will be required
to use all sick prior to commencing LTD11/13/2014 24
? FMLA (delete letter 04-12)
? 4 Must Have Days (Reserve pilots may
designate 4 non holiday must have days
each year)
? Revise Section 15.C.4.B (Reserve flying
into or out of a day off will be paid above
guarantee ? no credit)11/13/2014 25
? Revise Section 15
? Pick up in Base - Reserve pilots may
volunteer to fly on, into or out of a DFP
? Pick up out of Base - Reserve pilots may
volunteer to fly on, into or out of a DFP11/13/2014 26
? Urgent Need Bypass - at company option
a qualified pilot in position may be
awarded the a segment. Such pilot will be
paid but not credited. A sequence will be
created and awarded for pay purpose thru
the normal filling of open time process.
Such pilot will be paid and credited.11/13/2014 27
? Travel
? Company will provide one Positive Space
(D1/D2) qualified dependent of a retiring pilot
on the last sequence of the pilots career
? Positive Space travel for Association staff
representatives to attend negotiations
? Life Insurance ($10,000 advance for a
death)? Deadhead
? Company shall book DH when pairings
are published and provide pilot with
record locator
? DH pilots may pre-board and and valet
bags if bins are full
11/13/2014 2811/13/2014 29
? Recurrent Disability (extended to 90
days)
? Additional options for use of HRA ?
retiree medical, dental, vision, long term
care premiums as well as unreimbursed
retiree medical, dental, and vision11/13/2014 30
Resubmit the Following Proposals
? Increase Pay to offset Lack of Profit
Sharing
? Calendar Day and 5:30
? A321 Equivalent to Group 3 pay
? LOS
Committee RecommendationsBoard Guidance
The Negotiating Committee is awaiting
APA Board guidance on the disposition
of the remaining open items
11/13/2014 31APA?s initial proposals are available on
the on APA pilots web page ?JCBA
Roadmap?
Please contact your Domicile
Representative if you have any questions
11/13/2014 32
 
Last edited:
P

pave driver

APA update:

Wednesday's telephonic Town Hall meeting was a tremendous success. During the one hour meeting there were more than 2700 participants. The meeting was scheduled as a joint CLT and PHL meeting, but subsequently the DFW and LGA reps requested to be able to participate in a supportive role, and we gladly accepted.

This is a great tool that the APA utilizes to disseminate information out to the pilots, and we plan to use it regularly. Of course with so many participants on both the phone and internet, many did not get the opportunity to ask a question. This venue is mainly designed to be a good way to just listen in and get the latest hot topic information. Given the recent contract pass by the Company, the questions were all centered on the contract and what to expect. We did take some questions from both DFW and LGA pilots and the feedback was very good.



Contract Negotiations

This week the BOD met in closed session to continue discussions on a counter to the company’s proposal. Although our negotiators have been meeting with the company for months now, the company’s offer was comprised of simply pay rates with a quid of 8 concessions on our side. As noted in President Keith Wilson’s letter, this proposal is wholly inadequate and incomplete. The comprehensive counter proposal was passed to the company today. This proposal will be available on the APA website after the company has received it. We like the openness that APA has with its members to share everything possible as soon as possible.

This is a defining moment for both the pilots and the Company. For the first time in a more than a decade we have an opportunity to change the dysfunctional culture between the pilots and the Company. If this management decides to finally recognize the value of a motivated and loyal pilot group, the next 5 years could be a time of unprecedented cooperation and enthusiasm for all involved. By contrast, if they choose to be opportunistic and force a bankruptcy era contract on the pilot group during a period of historic industry profits, they will have 5 years of extreme animosity translating into an extremely toxic work environment and lagging profits.

The companies’ interpretation and subsequent offer of an “industry leading” contract for the F/A’s was recently rejected by the APFA. The most recent offer to the APA was neither “industry leading” nor “industry standard”

It was reported, in a recent employee meeting at Delta called "Velvet 360" Delta's CEO, Richard Anderson stated: American is trying to mimic everything we do, but frankly they will never catch up to us, because they don't invest in their People.

In light of the enormous profits experienced by AAG, our requests are very reasonable compared to our peers in the industry, we are hopeful that management will realize the value of a motivated work force and respond accordingly.

Fly Safe and Fly Smart,
 

Carl S.

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
Posts
481
Total Time
15K+
APA counter this afternoon, timeline looks to be going over the deadline tonight if progress continues without pulling the arbitration cord. Just think, USAPA did nothing for 6 plus years but to delay us finally going forward as we seem to be doing today.
 
Top