AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[ultrarunner]

Yep LJ45, done the same myself at TEB. At one point I told the controller that ERW and LGA operations didn't concern me, I asked for a hold while he sorted it out, and bingo, a downwind for 06!

And I didn't even have to declare an emergency ;-)

 

[LJ45]

and i didn't even have to declare an emergency ;-)

funny !

 

[Quimby]

You don't know. I don't know. We have a limited amount of information, but based on that it is very likely that fuel was a factor, and that's a very big deal. I'm inclined to give a fellow captain the benefit of the doubt until the facts are in. Even the FARs extend that much courtesy...

Fuel's a big deal? Really? Thanks for the update. Very insightful.

 

[Oh-ryan]

Until all of the facts come out, NOBODY should get the benefit of the doubt. Based on the facts that have come out so far, the captain loses points on the "communicate" portion of the "aviate, navigate, communicate" triad we are all taught from day one. If he had communicated better, we would not have a thread that is 10 pages long and counting. We would have known exactly what the problem was and the reason for his decision. Of course we would all then debate if the nature of the problem truly was an emergency.

I understand that time constraints may have limited his ability to effectively communicate, so we'll just have to wait and see what all the facts are. That's precisely why "communicate" is the last in piority of the triad. Once the facts do come out, he may gain points on the first two elements of the triad... or he may not.

Of course there will some of you block heads out there that will retort with, "He did communicate. He declared an emergencey. He's the PIC. Period. Checkmate." and for that I thank you in advance for your contribution.

 

[waveflyer]

Didn't everybody live? What's the controversy? We all know this isn't about Emergency authority- it's about a busy airport w/ a closed runway pushing pilots into a corner- and one captain who pushed back and shed some light on JFK standard practices. Dissecting the 'nature of the emergency' is missing the point. IMHO

 

[Say Again Over]

Yes the problem is deeper than the few facts that we were made aware of to date, Wino and some Dispatcher guy puts a lot more information out on the streets (pprune).

Like on the nice clear windy days, they aren't even required to have an alternate, of course most of us all know that the airports lose runways when it's windy and this is when holding occurs, these guys were probably dispatched on fumes.

 

[satpak77]

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kjfk/KJFK-Twr-May-04-2010-2100Z.mp3

another copy of the audio.

 

[LJ45]

I noticed the winds got better after the emergency ...hm

 

[Snaab]

I had to get pretty nasty with them a few months back going into TEB. One runway open and the tailwind component was well over 10 kts, which is a limitation on the aircraft I was flying. I asked for opposite direction and was told no, I told them the tailwind component was over the limit and they said everyone is landing that direction. Finally, I said aircraft have their limits and the tailwind component is over our legal limit, and I added, haven't we had enough aircraft problems at TEB already. After three times and getting pretty insistent on the last request, we get vectored off to never never land while they turn everything around. Then the controller wanted to be my best friend on the radio after a while. The northeast flying sucks, nothing but attitudes.

I hear ya! I'm based in EWR and I have learned this: there is a runway configuration at TEB, EWR, LGA and JFK that they 'like' and feel is optimal, and they won't change one airport unless all of them want a change. For instance, in the fall and winter, they'll stick with 22L in EWR because they don't wanna ruffle feathers at the other airport, but nevermind the howling quartering tailwind on approach to EWR 22L.

Anyone have any "conspiracy theories" on the NYC runway configurations?

 

[Godfather]

Anyone have any "conspiracy theories" on the NYC runway configurations?[/QUOTE]

Aliens that control Area 51 and High positions in the FAA, Skull and Crossbones, Girl Scouts, ACORN...I think they are all in on it somehow.

I passed under you the other day doing the VOR DME A at TEB. I honked the horn but you didn't wave back...lol!

 

[blackjack]

Listened to more of the tape than initially came out. Apologies if I am wrong, but it sounds like Captain flying, FO initially talking to me. The FO sounds a little rushed into declaring an emergency and communicating the plan for an immediate left turn for a right base to 31R (no disrespect at all intended here, the wind gust was called 10 seconds prior). Tower did not treat "we will have to declare an emergency" or the actual emergency declaration with the importance it deserves. You may disagree if the immediate turn for a right base was the correct call but we all want the words emergency or mayday to generate a helpful attitude with clear communication of intent from Kennedy tower or any ATC.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kj...2010-2100Z.mp3

at 0:55 into the tape Jetblue 62 on the ILS 31R cleared to land following a B-757

at 2:29 into the tape RJ02 is cleared to land 31R

at 4:55 Twr: Comair 314 wind 330/25 cleared takeoff 22R at YA

at 6:30 American 2 checks in on the ILS 22L
Twr: You are number 2 wind 320/22 cleared to land 22L

at 7:34 mumble visual for 22L
Twr: American 2 Heavy 22L you're cleared to land
"American 2 cleared to land 22L, your localizer's not armed"
Twr: "ok I will double check it"
at&:56 Twr: "American 2 it just reset should be coming back up in a little while"

at 8:42 Twr: "wind now 320/23 Gusting to 35"
at 8:52 "American 22 we can't land on 22 we are breaking off approach and if you don't give us runway 31 Right we are going to declare an emergency"
Twr: "Alright I'll pass it along, fly runway heading for now"
"Ok we are going to declare an emergency, going to land 31 Right, we are going to the left and then coming around"
Twr: "American 2 just fly runway heading"
new voice mumble (maybe "clear the area" by the Captain I assume)
Twr: "OK are you saying you are declaring an emergency?"
"Three times I've told you that, three times we are declaring an emergency"
Twr: "Ok I just want to verify you told me if you didn't get 31 Right you would have to declare an emergency you can understand, fly runway heading, I gotta get you a turn!"
at 9:44 Twr: "Jetblue 62 left on Alpha..." (just turned off of 31R)

at 10:10 Twr: "Fly heading 180"
(new voice Captain I assume) "you know what American 2 Heavy we are turning around to the left here and landing on 31, remove everybody from our way we have declared an emergency, we are on a visual"
Twr: "American 2 Heavy cleared to land 31 Right winds 310 at 24 Gusting to 34"

Twr: Cactus 12 maintain 2000 and cancel approach clearance
at: 10:49 Cactus 12 reports there is no ILS up for 22L
(later vectored away hdg 180 at 3000 back to approach)

at: 11:20 Twr: American 2243 hold position .... are you past the hold bar
American 2243 says yes
Twr: American 2243 I've got traffic inbound turn left no delay 22R left on FB

at 11:45 Delta 550 checks in for landing 22R winds 310 at 23

at 12:50 Twr: "American 2 Heavy left K right B ground is .65"

I thought IrishInUS had a couple of good points at Pprune
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/414573-aa-crew-fed-up-jfk-atc-declares-emergency-8.html

3. However, the controller was told that they would declare an emerg. if they didn't get the required runway. To me that sounds like a sort of "min fuel" call. The controller's mistake, in my view, was to say that he would "pass on the request" or something to that effect, that showed an undue concern that would have transmitted to the pilots that they were about to get sent out 50 miles to join the end of the line. Under those circumstances the pilots subsequent emergency call seems not only reasonable but required.

4. After receiving the emergency call, rather than ask what they intended, the controller's reaction was to issue an instruction (runway heading for the moment), this would have transmitted to the crew that "this guy just doesn't get it". If they have an emergency that absolutely allowed them to tell the controller what they were doing and it was the controllers job to get traffic out of their way.

5. I have had to go-around in New York recently and immediately declare min fuel, the controllers reaction was to FIRST say, "Ok, I'll get you right back in after the three on final, turn to XXX heading ...". That reassured me that this controller "gets it" and wont force me to declare an emergency. If the controller had said "I'll pass that on blah blah .." I would have done precisely what this crew did. All pilots think of Avianca Flight 52 when put in this situation, the pilots were not clear or decisive and let themselves get intimidated by the NY controllers, it got them killed along with scores of passengers.

 

[FO 4 Life]

4000 lbs is nuts in a 767.

That's the book, get it on the ground right now number. I don't know anyone who doesn't have a much higher bingo. Usually look for something else around the 10 grand number.

 

[ultrarunner]

Am I missing something? What was the nature of the emergency? And as far as I can count, there was only ONE declaration of an emergency. The two previous statements regarding the E word, just seemed to be statements the crew was going to declare if this, that or whatever.

What WAS the actual emergency?

 

[satpak77]

Its all in the sarcastic, demeaning, unprofessional tone of voice. A "real" emergency (should I say bona-fide...) results in crews and ATC working together, you can hear it in the tone of their voices

Lets listen to UAL 232. They lost complete control authority as most of use know. A bona-fide emergency.

http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/...org/Scanner/Sounds/Airplanes/united232ATC.mp3

Compare that the the "gusty winds" emergency by AAL2 and barking orders to "clear everyone out of his way"

Embarassing

 

[Cardinal]

">1500 HRS PIC turbine" and you've never taken a tone with a controller? I nominate thee for sainthood.

How do you know he didn't have a bona-fide emergency? I ask yet again.

 

[ultrarunner]

">1500 HRS PIC turbine" and you've never taken a tone with a controller? I nominate thee for sainthood.

How do you know he didn't have a bona-fide emergency? I ask yet again.

How do you know he did Cardinal? And if so, tell is what that emergency was?

 

[satpak77]

">1500 HRS PIC turbine" and you've never taken a tone with a controller? I nominate thee for sainthood.

How do you know he didn't have a bona-fide emergency? I ask yet again.

Thanks for the nomination. As requested, what was the emergency? In my more than 1500 hrs turbine, I have never told a controller "if I don't get XX runway I am declaring an emergency"

Never.

What office issues the Sainthood jersey

 

[Draginass]

Thanks for the nomination. As requested, what was the emergency? In my more than 1500 hrs turbine, I have never told a controller "if I don't get XX runway I am declaring an emergency"

Never.

What office issues the Sainthood jersey

Given the circumstances and bad FAA management policy with regards to managing traffic into JFK with the runway closure, I'm not surprised at all at this declaration from the crew.

 

[Cardinal]

You don't know what happened and want to hang the pilot, I don't know what happened and give the Captain the benefit of the doubt. There lies the difference. As pilot in command you are the last line of defense for your passenger's lives, you must hold that line by such necessary means.

 

[satpak77]

You don't know what happened and want to hang the pilot, I don't know what happened and give the Captain the benefit of the doubt. There lies the difference. As pilot in command you are the last line of defense for your passenger's lives, you must hold that line by such necessary means.