AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[ultrarunner]

I will put a boot on that baby's respirator tube if it saves 200 lives. Those of you who would hang this AA crew already, may you forever inhabit the right seat.

The key Cardinal is WHAT were all those passengers being saved FROM.

Don't you think it is fairly simply to state what the nature of the emergency is? I would think a competent PIC would want the best information passed on to ATC so that all those 200 people have the best chance of survival, right??

Now, I'm not smart, but I have declared a couple E's in my day, and I have been pretty darn clear and concise....

....but each PIC has their own style....


BRACE YOURSELF! CLEAR the WAY, WE'RE COMING IN!!!!!

pretty figgin incredible!

 

[satpak77]

Min fuel doesn't mean squat to JFK ATC.

Especially when it is never declared in the first place.

 

[Quimby]

I will put a boot on that baby's respirator tube if it saves 200 lives. Those of you who would hang this AA crew already, may you forever inhabit the right seat.

So 200 lives were in immediate danger? As in, right now, Sully-type danger?

 

[satpak77]

So 200 lives were in immediate danger? As in, right now, Sully-type danger?

Or Sioux City

 

[Cardinal]

So 200 lives were in immediate danger? As in, right now, Sully-type danger?

You don't know. I don't know. We have a limited amount of information, but based on that it is very likely that fuel was a factor, and that's a very big deal. I'm inclined to give a fellow captain the benefit of the doubt until the facts are in. Even the FARs extend that much courtesy...

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Satpak,

Others have covered it ad-naseum that the communications we have come from some guys scanner monitoring different frequencies and there are obvious missing transmissions. To say you know the crew didn't mention the fuel is ridiculous.

If AA's rumored arrival fuel number is correct, somewhere around 6,500 lbs, then the crews concern is understandable. If I remember correctly, takeoff FF for two CF6's is about 24,000lbs/hour.

Keep in mind also that that 767 may be nearing 30 years old, and given the cutbacks in everything AA does, one might not trust the gauges. that 6.5K could be 10K and 3K. I wouldn't trust any carriers gauges when it comes time to start splitting minutes. it's probably like everything else an airline does, just a corporate estimate. I've had takeoffs in a B737 where it behaved like it was 10,000 heavier than stated. The response, "so what?"

There were no babies in incubators. I do also have plenty of time in the past flying Lifeguard flights with organs whose shelf life was measured in hours. ATC seemed to give a crap at times and it wasn't unheard of to slap them upside the headphones and tell them we were going to do our plan not theirs. I have no doubt the kid who was getting the heart I was flying would have appreciated it.

You mentioned CRM? Maybe JFK Tower could do their job and consider the operational performance limitations that have been in place since the Wright Brothers flew at Kittyhawk instead of Political issues of pushing 2 million pounds of RJ crap into a 1 million pound bag.

 

[ultrarunner]

So 200 lives were in immediate danger? As in, right now, Sully-type danger?

Well Quimby, when a PIC exercises their authority, and gives the "brace yourself Ethel, I'm going in" comment, and they immediately executes that plan, I'm thinking their was imminent danger. What other explanation would there be for an immediate turn-back?

I'll give the PIC the benefit I suppose....

Should be interesting to read all the facts!

Ultra--

 

[BillJBrake]

THEY DID ask for it, after the controller told them "to get 31R you will have to declare an emergency."

The controller never told them to get 31R they'd have to declare. "I know you told me if you didn't get 31R you would HAVE to declare an emergency....I understand, fly runway heading..."

It seems like the controller was very reasonable and tried to accomodate, throughout. The Pilot went rogue off the bat and started to give him a hard time, etc. If the emergency was *THAT* urgent, why didn't he mention his fuel situation somepart during the declaring, or something to let the controller know it was more than just wind.

It's as if he never gave the controller a chance, very brash work by the captain. I don't hear anywhere in the tapes where the controller is refusing to accomodate his request for 31R, seems like the AAL pilot was also lacking some patience, along with his communication skills.

 

[FO 4 Life]

If AA's rumored arrival fuel number is correct, somewhere around 6,500 lbs, then the crews concern is understandable. If I remember correctly, takeoff FF for two CF6's is about 24,000lbs/hour.

So what is considered emergency fuel for a 767 at AA? My company is 4000.

 

[75 Driver]

This one has gone up the food chain, it is national's court now. The Garden City FSDO did some initial footwork, with DFW jumping in to counter some of the first questions posed by the local FSDO(Garden City) rep.

Most probably outcomes being discussed, some changes to guidance contained in the American Airlines manual system, training and checking program, operational control issues will need some additional oversight and recommendations for changes.

As far as the crew is concerned the possibility of 709 rides is still on the table. The decision will come shortly.

 

[igneousy2]

WTF Over. I cannot believe that their is even an argument on a board full of pilots.

I am reading all these "definitions" of emergency and cannot believe that none of these "pilots" have actually gotten it right! It's whenever the Captain SAYS it's an emergency! Period end of story...this has solid legal precedence and it has been that way for years! It's not if the FO thinks it...the FA's think it...your DO or the FAA thinks it...it's the CAPTAIN.

Second...You don't have to explain "the nature of your emergency" EVER....according to the regs...they are lucky you called at all.

Some of you have a problem with being a Captain as can be seen from these posts...I can't blame you though seeing how the idea of Captains Authority has degraded to the point where not even pilots understand what it means.

I'm not surprised though, I've heard of an airline that teaches their crews that you have to be "re-released" to a diversion airport even though an engine just caught fire at V1 on takeoff, you are returning for a landing, and this "re-release" involves getting dispatcher initials and a time-stamp while at 2000' in the traffic pattern at LAX while preparing for a single engine abnormal configuration landing ... am I the only one that thinks this is just CRAZY.

Later

 

[C-150ETOPS]

This one has gone up the food chain, it is national's court now. The Garden City FSDO did some initial footwork, with DFW jumping in to counter some of the first questions posed by the local FSDO(Garden City) rep.

Most probably outcomes being discussed, some changes to guidance contained in the American Airlines manual system, training and checking program, operational control issues will need some additional oversight and recommendations for changes.

As far as the crew is concerned the possibility of 709 rides is still on the table. The decision will come shortly.

Wild guess, but my thoughts are that there are two factors driving the above info if true.

1. The standard investigation of the crew, ATC and procedures for both.

2. Retaliation from the higher levels of the FAA and ATC. The "Kings" procedures for cramming too much traffic into the NYC metro area, and their failure to modernize the system may be questioned by Senators and Governors, but will not be questioned by the actions of peon pilots and controllers.

 

[igneousy2]

The way violations get handled at the FAA...

Line Inspectors spend hours and hours investigating writing reports and making recommendations then submit said report to the Region Counsel.

Region Counsel will look at this for about...2 minutes in this case tops...imagines what the cross examination his inspectors will look like...realize that he will be faced with proving something that is not provable...A losing battle that will hurt his win percentage...kick the report back to FSDO requesting further information that will be impossible to produce ...where a secretary will lock it away in a file cabinet where it will never be seen again.

Captain: I thought that if I followed the clearance it would have taken me off of a stabilized approach which would have caused me to go-around...which I know from my personal experience would have burnt X,000 lbs of fuel at a minimum...coupled with my personal years of experience into JFK with radar vectors to Delaware would have caused me to land with X,000 lbs of fuel which is below what I believe to be safe.

Okay Mr. FAA lawyer...prove that X,000 lbs of fuel is a safe margin.

No matter what number you pick...especially numbers less than 6500 lbs in a 767...not possible.

My prediction for this case is that all parties involved are going to let this thing die as quickly as the news cycle will allow it. The "flying public" is going to flip-out if they find out we don't top the tanks off for every flight, heaven forbid they find out we regularly plan to land with only a 45 minute margin.

 

[ackattacker]

I am reading all these "definitions" of emergency and cannot believe that none of these "pilots" have actually gotten it right! It's whenever the Captain SAYS it's an emergency! Period end of story...this has solid legal precedence and it has been that way for years! It's not if the FO thinks it...the FA's think it...your DO or the FAA thinks it...it's the CAPTAIN.

Second...You don't have to explain "the nature of your emergency" EVER....according to the regs...they are lucky you called at all.

This is just plain flat out wrong information. Almost nothing you have said here is accurate. You are living in a fantasy land.

An emergency is whenever there is an emergency not whenever you say there's an emergency. Whether the captain *declares* it to be an emergency is not necessarily relevant. A declaration of emergency is not some magic set of words, it is a simple statement to ATC that you either a) require assistance or b) intend to exercise your PIC emergency authority in order to ensure a safe outcome of flight. In the case of a), the captain is not required to declare an emergency, anyone can do it including ATC or the dispatcher. Tower sees flames shooting out your engine? Bam, emergency declared, trucks roll, you don't have to say squat.

In the case of b), you have the PIC authority whether you declare it or not. It's inherent.

HOWEVER, whenever you deviate from a rule or regulation using your emergency authority you are ABSOLUTELY required to explain yourself to the FAA within 10 written days. 121.557. If there was no actual emergency, expect certificate action. You are also REQUIRED to keep ATC or dispatch informed of your progress during the actual emergency.

Sec. 121.557 - Emergencies: Domestic and flag operations.
(a) In an emergency situation that requires immediate decision and action the pilot in command may take any action that he considers necessary under the circumstances. In such a case he may deviate from prescribed operations procedures and methods, weather minimums, and this chapter, to the extent required in the interests of safety.
(b) In an emergency situation arising during flight that requires immediate decision and action by an aircraft dispatcher, and that is known to him, the aircraft dispatcher shall advise the pilot in command of the emergency, shall ascertain the decision of the pilot in command, and shall have the decision recorded. If the aircraft dispatcher cannot communicate with the pilot, he shall declare an emergency and take any action that he considers necessary under the circumstances.
(c) Whenever a pilot in command or dispatcher exercises emergency authority, he shall keep the appropriate ATC facility and dispatch centers fully informed of the progress of the flight. The person declaring the emergency shall send a written report of any deviation through the certificate holder's operations manager, to the Administrator. A dispatcher shall send his report within 10 days after the date of the emergency, and a pilot in command shall send his report within 10 days after returning to his home base.

 

[Draginass]

So what is considered emergency fuel for a 767 at AA? My company is 4000.

4000 lbs is nuts in a 767.

 

[atcloser]

This post is 100% on the ball correct. Herein lies the real blame for what happened that day. Our hands are tied too.

Min fuel doesn't mean squat to JFK ATC. The FAA management is forcing the controllers to over-maximize the traffic into and out of JFK due to the runway closure. In retrospect, maybe the best course of action considering that it's obvious that the airline and FAA managements want to put the runway closure monkey on the back of the pilots, would be to divert when the FAA insists on landing aircraft on runways with close-to, or blatantly out-of-limits winds and refuses to allow you to land into the wind.

As usual, it's the pilots that have to make up for the lack of leadership in airline management and the FAA.

If you read what the FAA controller rep said afterwards, it's obvious to me that the controllers at JFK are under tremendous pressure from FAA management to "push tin" to the max and to hell with everything else.

 

[Patriot328]

4000 lbs is nuts in a 767.

You aren't kidding!!!

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Memory fades me as to what point the heat exchanger for the hydraulic system goes uncovered for lack of fuel. 2000 lbs/300 gallons isn't much. Another factor is pitch limitations. Perform a robust GA and take your chances with 400 gallons sloshing away from the pick up points. You can also take your chances with the calibration in a set of 20-30 year old tanks. i'm sure AA nailed those numbers down on the last D-Check.

Then again, forget all the above. They should have been more caring and sharing, along with fostering a cohesive relationship with JFK Tower in order to make a team decison.

Some here seem to have spent too much time watching the Teletubbies as kids, and overdosed on self esteem validation while in school.

 

[igneousy2]

This is just plain flat out wrong information. Almost nothing you have said here is accurate. You are living in a fantasy land.

An emergency is whenever there is an emergency not whenever you say there's an emergency. Whether the captain *declares* it to be an emergency is not necessarily relevant. A declaration of emergency is not some magic set of words, it is a simple statement to ATC that you either a) require assistance or b) intend to exercise your PIC emergency authority in order to ensure a safe outcome of flight. In the case of a), the captain is not required to declare an emergency, anyone can do it including ATC or the dispatcher. Tower sees flames shooting out your engine? Bam, emergency declared, trucks roll, you don't have to say squat.

In the case of b), you have the PIC authority whether you declare it or not. It's inherent.

HOWEVER, whenever you deviate from a rule or regulation using your emergency authority you are ABSOLUTELY required to explain yourself to the FAA within 10 written days. 121.557. If there was no actual emergency, expect certificate action. You are also REQUIRED to keep ATC or dispatch informed of your progress during the actual emergency.

Okay you got me on the 10 written days...I said EVER but what I really meant is EVER to ATC on the radio.

But I stand by the rest of it...they are lucky you called...91.3 can negate all the rest of what you quoted if you don't feel like you have the time.

The point is that THIS captain believed that not putting the airplane down right now constituted an emergency. From the reports on here he had 6,500 lbs of fuel when he landed which even in the narrow body world is not a whole lot down low.

 

[LJ45]

I had to get pretty nasty with them a few months back going into TEB. One runway open and the tailwind component was well over 10 kts, which is a limitation on the aircraft I was flying. I asked for opposite direction and was told no, I told them the tailwind component was over the limit and they said everyone is landing that direction. Finally, I said aircraft have their limits and the tailwind component is over our legal limit, and I added, haven't we had enough aircraft problems at TEB already. After three times and getting pretty insistent on the last request, we get vectored off to never never land while they turn everything around. Then the controller wanted to be my best friend on the radio after a while. The northeast flying sucks, nothing but attitudes.