AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[FLYLOW22]

GOOD JOB!

Any crew that would have done it differently is a lesser crew.

GOOD JOB!!

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/e63bbedc3044a110852566cf00612076!OpenDocument

 

[satpak77]

Listening to the file, if it is a non-modified version, upon hearing the wind report provided by the tower, they say they are "breaking off the approach" (this is prior to the emergency declaration) and then state that "if you don't give us 31 Right we are gonna declare an emergency"

I think everyone in that exchange and post-incident who listened agree that the causal factor for the purported emergency is the surface wind.

Tower (in charge of keeping separation and preventing metal on metal) instructs them to fly runway heading (how dare they do their job). Instead of "OK Tower, any help you can give is is appreciated", AA responds "get everyone out of our way" etc etc

Professional? You be the judge. I know what my opinion is.

This brings back memories to an on-the-air argument by one AA crew on DFW approach against another crew, and approach control, as to "why" AA Flight XXX is sequenced behind the other one

nice nice

 

[C-150ETOPS]

If your dumb enough to fly off on your own in NY airspace with over 200 people in the back of your plane then I seriously have to ask if you can actual pass the FAA flight physical ??

Grab an FAR/AIM and refresh yourself on the status of an aircraft after it has declared an emergency. I believe it conflicts with your definition of "on your own".

 

[FLYLOW22]

SATPAK,

They did a great job.

 

[satpak77]

Grab an FAR/AIM and refresh yourself on the status of an aircraft after it has declared an emergency. I believe it conflicts with your definition of "on your own".

Tell me what section in the FAR/AIM addresses menstrual cycle "heavy" airline pilots who use the E-word to get it their way

You think this is Burger King?

I can't find it.....go ahead, "grab" the FAR/AIM, and "refresh us" on what section that is in.....

 

[satpak77]

SATPAK,

They did a great job.

at what?

 

[FLYLOW22]

FLYLOW.... out.

SATPAK.... please get in contact when you find your sack.

Until then, please do not accept upgrade.

Yours truly...

 

[UpNDownGuy]

It was pretty simple. They were out of gas,and had to land. JFK is the worst ATC in the entire world for listening to pilots. You need a 2X4 to get their attention. If they were to devote 1% of their time to listening, instead of issuing unreasonable clearances, none of this would have happened.

This crew did an outstanding job in difficult circumstances. My only concern is the amount of wannabee pilots Monday-morning quarterbacking their decisions.

 

[FlyboyPhil]

ok.. clarity moment.. I listened to the recordings, approach and final. In the recordings I listened to they NEVER mentioned did they were low on gas or had to have 31R immediately until they made their "clear the airspace" comment. If you say you must have 31R because of winds they resequence you. And the "if you don't give us 31R we will declare an emergency" is not an emergency declaration.. it's a threat/statement of intentions. The standard way to get 31R is to get in line. The controller was giving them what they asked for by vectoring him for 31R. Not what he didn't ask for which is "we are declaring an emergency, we are low fuel, we need 31R immediately". The guys in the aircraft are all wound up.. and the controller has no idea it's not a normal go around due to winds. I have absolutely no problem with their declaring an emergency and getting priority, I have a big issue with their lack of clear communication.

 

[Quimby]

Sounds like they were holding on too tight & lost the edge.

Is Maverick #1 now?

 

[ultrarunner]

ok.. clarity moment.. I listened to the recordings, approach and final. In the recordings I listened to they NEVER mentioned did they were low on gas or had to have 31R immediately until they made their "clear the airspace" comment. If you say you must have 31R because of winds they resequence you. And the "if you don't give us 31R we will declare an emergency" is not an emergency declaration.. it's a threat/statement of intentions. The standard way to get 31R is to get in line. The controller was giving them what they asked for by vectoring him for 31R. Not what he didn't ask for which is "we are declaring an emergency, we are low fuel, we need 31R immediately". The guys in the aircraft are all wound up.. and the controller has no idea it's not a normal go around due to winds. I have absolutely no problem with their declaring an emergency and getting priority, I have a big issue with their lack of clear communication.

Excellent post Phil, but you're gonna get thumped on By the "PIC-COMMAND-AUTHORITY" group for sure!

Some in that group don't understand that you STILL need to effectively communicate WHAT IS GOING ON, in ADDITION to what you are doing!

Not knowing anything more than the recordings, one would think that the PIC's immediate turn-back and the "we're COMING IN, CLEAR THE RUNWAY" comment would indicate a very clear and immediate threat to safety all souls on board.

1. Loss of both engines.....

2. Fire that can't be extinguished....

3. Attack in progress....


YMMV

 

[satpak77]

Very unprofessional. THEY are the ones (for those who actually listened to the audio) who initiated the "If we don't get what we want, we are declaring emergency"

somebody's transcript here

http://nycaviation.com/2010/05/07/a...cy-landing-after-argument-with-control-tower/

Tower: “Alright I will pass it along, fly runway heading for now.”


AA 2 heavy: “Okay, we’re declaring emergency, we’re gonna land 3-1-right. We’re going to the left and then coming around.”


Tower: “American 2 heavy, just fly runway heading.”
AA 2 heavy: “Clear the area.”


Tower: “You say you’re declaring emergency?”


AA 2 heavy: “Three times I’ve told you that. Three times we’re declaring an emergency.”


Tower: “Okay, I just want to verify, I know you said if you didn’t get 31-right you have to declare an emergency. Okay, understand, fly runway heading and I gotta get you a turn!”


Tower: “Fly heading 1-8-0″


AA 2 heavy: “American 2 heavy, we are turning around to the left here and landing on 3-1. Remove everybody from our way. We’ve declared an emergency. We’re on a visual.”


Tower: “Alright, American 2 heavy, cleared to land, 3-1-right, 3-1-0 2-4 gusting to 3-4.”


AA 2 heavy: “Cleared to land, runway 3-1-right, American 2 heavy.”
​

Observe this is a flight out of LA. They were not coming inbound from Barcelona, Spain against unforecast headwinds, etc.

Why not go into a hold and try to work it out with ATC?

That air-med Lear with a baby on a respirator, being vectored to the approach? we have a new vector for you, we have an aircraft with a declared emergency we must contend with. Fly heading 130 and standby for holding instructions.....

"Awesome job" at using your "PIC Authority"

I will add the observation that it appears a low fuel situation/similar was never discussed by the crew with ATC, and up until the wind report (given to the crew by the tower), absolutely no problems, issues, etc were mentioned by this flight. So when the human tower controller was "surprised" or taken off guard by the declaration (in light of the fact that such a declaration with gusty winds is not a common event....), we don't need to jump on the controller.

"Approach we are min fuel please pass it to tower" goes a long way.

CRM extends to ATC also and keeping them in the loop folks. The world we fly in extends outside the windshield.

 

[Cardinal]

I will put a boot on that baby's respirator tube if it saves 200 lives. Those of you who would hang this AA crew already, may you forever inhabit the right seat.

 

[Draginass]

Min fuel doesn't mean squat to JFK ATC. The FAA management is forcing the controllers to over-maximize the traffic into and out of JFK due to the runway closure. In retrospect, maybe the best course of action considering that it's obvious that the airline and FAA managements want to put the runway closure monkey on the back of the pilots, would be to divert when the FAA insists on landing aircraft on runways with close-to, or blatantly out-of-limits winds and refuses to allow you to land into the wind.

As usual, it's the pilots that have to make up for the lack of leadership in airline management and the FAA.

If you read what the FAA controller rep said afterwards, it's obvious to me that the controllers at JFK are under tremendous pressure from FAA management to "push tin" to the max and to hell with everything else.

 

[aa73]

It was pretty simple. They were out of gas,and had to land.

Are you privy to details that we aren't? Where did you read they were out of gas?