AA JFK crosswind emergency...

[Caveman]

No airmanship awards, but I am crediting him with exercising his Captain's authority. He may or may not have overreacted, but everybody went home safely that day. I say again, good job Captain.

 

[LJ45]

How many other flights got low on fuel because of the delays caused by this? Just wondering.

 

[waveflyer]

To me, many just seem to have a hard time seeing somebody exercise emergency authority, and stepping up as a captain. Maybe time some took some personal reflection, and ask themselves if they are letting other people make the decisions ahead of the cockpit door. Some just seem unable to make the tough decisions without having a conference call with dispatch, chief pilots, and an ALPA rep. They got the job done, and done safely. They didn't let anybody else talk them into doing something they might have regretted later.

This is a very good point. Sure, if there's time- get any and all info/ideas you can- but there's really no getting around one important fact. The captain is responsible for that flight. Noone else.

Now we all work on our judgement everday to make sure we do NOT hesitate when we need to make decisions. Whether this is a good decision or one we can learn from are in the details we don't know- but we should all be capable of being that strong.

------------
but your signature is wrong -
an armed society is a deadly society everywhere except places that were extrememly polite and civilized to begin with. I can cite some ghettos here in the states if you'd like.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Has everyone at Kennedy forgotten the Avianca crash? That crew was eviscerated for NOT declaring an emergency.
http://aviation-safety.net/investigation/cvr/transcripts/cvr_av052.php

 

[Say Again Over]

I don't fault ATC, the controllers are just implementing the plan to operate the airport during this period of construction on 31L, the airlines and the airport authority agreed to this.

The AA crew does of crap job of communicating, and those you feel that they can just declare an emergency and then take over the airspace will be in for a surprise when this event is resolved, the pilots will take a fall, others may disagree.

 

[rajflyboy]

Crew was right on to declare an emergency if they needed runway 31R but they were very wrong in not complying with the runway heading the controller gave them. Unless they are low on gas or had some other issue in which they failed to tell ATC.

 

[ableone]

sounds fishy-I don't know the whole story, but from the audio alone I don't see why they couldn't go to EWR or BOS. Unless they were reallly at emergency fuel. Then again I don't have information on the weather at the time, fuel state, or maybe there was something else abnormal going on that created a problem. If it was a fuel problem they could have just said emergency fuel or something along those lines and maybe the controller wouldn't have been so ticked off.

Personally, I won't divert to an alternate airport because ATC does not want to turn the airport around. Though I suspect that fuel was becoming an issue it really does not matter.

Everything that flies, birds and helicopters included, was designed to take off and land into the wind. If it takes declaring an emergency to make this happen, so be it.

I believe most on the boards who are jumping on the American crew are the same guys who ask ATC permission three times to turn and avoid WX.

Though I don't remember declairing an emergency I have refused a fair number of clearances. Also stop asking for headings - tell ATC you are turning or give them a choice of heading but be clear about who gets to make the final call.

 

[SLUF4]

I just don't totally agree with you. You can't just declare an emergency because ATC is doing something you don't like, it will inconvenience you etc... I'm not saying let ATC be the commander of your flight. Like I said, I don't know the whole story. Just seemed like a little bit of an overreaction on the radio-that's all. And I have declared an emergency a few times. All of them were for good reasons and I didn't have to get into a shouting match on the radio with ATC. Maybe I was dealing with better controllers.

 

[waveflyer]

I believe most on the boards who are jumping on the American crew are the same guys who ask ATC permission three times to turn and avoid WX.

haha - well said-
I will play devil's advocate here though- you shouldn't declare an emergency for any old reason. Bottom line, if anyone feels too strong with just this tape and story- you might want to see if the whole story comes out first

 

[rajflyboy]

I just don't totally agree with you. You can't just declare an emergency because ATC is doing something you don't like, it will inconvenience you etc... I'm not saying let ATC be the commander of your flight. Like I said, I don't know the whole story. Just seemed like a little bit of an overreaction on the radio-that's all. And I have declared an emergency a few times. All of them were for good reasons and I didn't have to get into a shouting match on the radio with ATC. Maybe I was dealing with better controllers.

I agree

To go on your own in NY airspace is pure insanity. They could have easily had a near miss with another aircraft for just turning on their own in the most dense airspace in the world.

 

[waveflyer]

It was a visual. I wouldn't make that too dramatic yet.

 

[SLUF4]

I believe it was perfect VMC when that mid air took place over the hudson..or 85 % of all mid air collisions for that matter.

 

[waveflyer]

When you declare an emergency, you get to go where you want. It's a 767- RA TCAS, like I said- let's not get dramatic. Some of you might need to hop in a cessna and learn how to scan for traffic OUT the window again.

 

[ackattacker]

I once knew a pilot who declared an emergency for takeoff in order to cut in line. This is a 100% true story.

He worked for AA, now retired.

Coincidence?

 

[ackattacker]

When you declare an emergency, you get to go where you want. It's a 767- RA TCAS, like I said- let's not get dramatic. Some of you might need to hop in a cessna and learn how to scan for traffic OUT the window again.

When you have an emergency you get to deviate from rules and regulations to the extent required to meet the nature of the emergency. No more. FAR 91.3. So the question is did AA flight 2 have an emergency which required them to ignore controller assigned headings and land immediately? Unclear from this exchange.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Personally, I won't divert to an alternate airport because ATC does not want to turn the airport around. Though I suspect that fuel was becoming an issue it really does not matter.

What would you do if the runway you needed was simply closed and fuel was not an issue?

Everything that flies, birds and helicopters included, was designed to take off and land into the wind. If it takes declaring an emergency to make this happen, so be it.

So what would you do for a take off with a tailwind? Declare an emergency take off on the opposite runway? No, you'd tell ATC that you need runway XX for performance and that you can't accept another runway. (I'm betting the AA crew did just that before the recording started.)

I know that take offs are optional and landings are mandatory.

I believe most on the boards who are jumping on the American crew are the same guys who ask ATC permission three times to turn and avoid WX.

I for one am not "jumping on the American crew." I think that to avoid endangering the safety of the flight, pilots should do and ask for "permission" later. That's our job.

The question some people have is: was the crew avoiding endangering the flight or avoiding inconveniencing the flight. They are not the same thing.

Though I don't remember declairing an emergency I have refused a fair number of clearances. Also stop asking for headings - tell ATC you are turning or give them a choice of heading but be clear about who gets to make the final call.

Well said. Also stop taking off with less fuel than you need.

 

[ableone]

What would you do if the runway you needed was simply closed and fuel was not an issue?

Closed and not in use are two different things. If the runways is closed for maintenance etc. it is not part of the air tranport system.

However, if the runway is not closed but is simply not in use (31R for example) then I can and will insist on its use if I feel it is necessary.

The question some people have is: was the crew avoiding endangering the flight or avoiding inconveniencing the flight. They are not the same thing.



Well said. Also stop taking off with less fuel than you need.

It's a little early to speculate so let's wait and see what happens. I suspect that there was a fuel issue in play as well.

With respect to taking off with enough fuel. For the past several years my company has loaded us with more fuel than I could concievably need.

That said, the unexpected does sometimes happen. Though I have not had an issue lately a few of my compatriots have. The last guy who ran into a problem could not land due to severe turbulance and windshear.

The weather was "clear" and as such he carried no alternate fuel. He ended up having to tell ATC what his clearance route was going to be.

Every once in a while, even if you don't use the E word, you just have to tell ATC "This is not a request - this is what we are doing - deal with it as best you can."

Keep in mind the American flight that had a possible fuel leak going into DFW about a year ago. He actually declared an emergency but then let ATC tell him he could not land on the runway of his choice. The controller did get some re-training but I am sure that AMR instituted some training of their own. This incident may have some bearing on the JFK landing.

 

[8vATE]

Closed runway vs a not in use runway

The previous poster made an excellent point.

My suggestion would be...

ATC: We are landing 22L ... 31R not available.

Flight Crew: We require 31R for operational necessity. Are you stating that 31R is closed?

ATC: 31R is not closed but current traffic is using 22L

Flight Crew: We require 31R for operational necessity. Declaring minimum fuel.

Or something to that effect.

 

[aewanabe]

Heard through the grapevine the issue was fuel. Supposedly landed with 6.5; I've never flown a 76 but a couple furloughees here whom have say that's an eye-raising number. Any current heavy drivers want to comment?

 

[Mookie]

6.5 must be tight for a 76. most guys in the 37 want at least 5.

loved the recording and loved the captain saying "for the 3rd time, I've declared an emergency, get everyone out of the way..." finally someone w some cajones.

mookie