A letter to a Delta Friend

[Superpilot92]

It should priority number 1 to secure all flying at the mainline level. There is nothing worth giving away our jobs. It needs to be in the joint contract that any further aircraft go on the mainline ticket. Giving away the 100 seat flying would be detrimental to the New DAL. that flying needs to be done at the mainline level or the dc9s and dc9-80s will fall victim just as the 737-200's and 300's did. Whether its E-190s the new C-series or if Boeing ever comes through with a new hundred seater they belong at mainline. Priority #1

 

[Superpilot92]

Both carriers have strong career outlooks and both have tremendous strengths. This is more a merger of equals on most respects, in my eye. I assume lets go to arbitration for the SLI and get it over with (that is what is going to happen anyways- there will be b*tching from both sides as usual, too.)


Regardless, let's get a joint contract and all get more money in our pockets.

Great post!! I agree

 

[DrewBlows]

Does that "dynamic seniority" apply to both ends of the list? If you are trying to keep NWA pilots in NWA airplanes, then it should also be NWA pilots who feel the pinch of a retiring NWA airframe.

Of course. There is contention over future retirements at each company, "dynamic seniority" takes that factor out of the combined list. Once you agree to that you only have to figure out the proper ratio based on all of the other factors mentioned here. It still isn't simple but it solves a HUGE SLI issue so they can move on.

 

[jetflier]

It should priority number 1 to secure all flying at the mainline level. There is nothing worth giving away our jobs. It needs to be in the joint contract that any further aircraft go on the mainline ticket. Giving away the 100 seat flying would be detrimental to the New DAL. that flying needs to be done at the mainline level or the dc9s and dc9-80s will fall victim just as the 737-200's and 300's did. Whether its E-190s the new C-series or if Boeing ever comes through with a new hundred seater they belong at mainline. Priority #1

The replacement aircraft for the 100 -125 seat DC-9 must pay at least what the current payscale is. If ALPA caved on the payscale to bring a "regional" jet, "ERJ, 170-195 on the property, they will have succeeded in replacing higher paying pilot positions. And according to latest media reports, the Regional Airline Association is pushing to replace their inefficient 50 seat birds with bigger 120 seat regional jets, or be forced out of the business altogether.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Jetflyer:

Need to get them on the property first. Reference DAL's 737-700's that now pay -800 rates. You are senior enough to not have to bid it if you do not want to. But, if the DC9's are replaced (as I think they will be) there might not be enough slots to go around and your relative seniority decreases.

It should priority number 1 to secure all flying at the mainline level.

Priority #1

Agreed!

Let me add to that. The SLI would not be as big a problem if being at the bottom of the list with the DC9's future being uncertain was not such a problem. A better scope solution would take a lot of heat off the SLI for junior Captains and FO's.

 

[DTW320]

BTW, what is all this about "the 767 paying the same as the 757" from the letter? The 757 pay rates are the same as the 767, however you look at it...and however you look at it, it pays more per hour than the A330. So, I look at it as our 757 pays more than the A330. Happy?

Um, no....because, actually, it doesn't!

 

[FlyingSig]

Um, no....because, actually, it doesn't!

You're right. A A330 Capt makes $162/hr right now and a DAL 757 Capt. makes $160/hr right now.

How many NWA A330 Capts are there vs. DAL 757 Capts?

Now add the higher paying eqipment of the 767-400 ($181) and the 777 ($191) and compare those numbers to the 747 ($179)and the non-existant 787 ($165).

How many 747 Capts vs 767-400 and 777 Capt?

 

[DTW320]

You're right. A A330 Capt makes $162/hr right now and a DAL 757 Capt. makes $160/hr right now.Actually, A330 CA's make $167/hr due to 100% of A330 flying being international.

How many NWA A330 Capts are there vs. DAL 757 Capts? 350 A330 CA's

Now add the higher paying eqipment of the 767-400 ($181) and the 777 ($191) and compare those numbers to the 747 ($179)($184)and the non-existant 787 ($165)($170).

How many 747 Capts vs 767-400 and 777 Capt? 315 747CA's

You're 767's pay 10% more than our 757's. Just like your 737's pay 10% more than our A320/319. I simply corrected Peanuckle's statement that DAL 767's pay more than NWA A330's. No need to get your double-breasted panties in a wad.

You're right.

Thanks.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Sorry, I should have specified. FO payrates up through year 7-8 or so are higher on the 767/757 than the 330. I'm not a smart man, but I do know what love is.

 

[GogglesPisano]

... this just in ...

Monday, May 12, 2008 - 4:07 PM EDT
Steenland: Fuel costs may shrink merged Delta/NorthwestAtlanta Business Chronicle

Minneapolis-St. Paul will retain a "vibrant" hub and a substantial number of jobs if a Delta-Northwest merger moves forward, Northwest Airlines Corp. CEO Doug Steenland told business leaders Monday. But he said that soaring fuel costs may ultimately shrink local operations.

Speaking at a meeting of the St. Paul Area Chamber of Commerce, Steenland said the combined carrier will keep its reservation offices, data center and flight-training facility open following the close of the deal. Overall, he expects the deal to have a similar impact on the Twin Cities as the 1998 merger between Minneapolis-based Norwest Corp. and San Francisco-based Wells Fargo; In that deal, Minneapolis lost a corporate headquarters, but ultimately gained more jobs.

But Steenland cautioned that with the price of oil soaring, it's hard to predict how many workers the carrier will employ into the future. "This can only go on so long," Steenland said, of airlines absorbing the high price of fuel. "Fuel costs will have to be passed onto consumers. That will mean higher fares, so we'll see demand come down, and the airline will have to shrink."

Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc. (NYSE: DAL) and Northwest (NYSE: NWA) last week began crafting a plan for integrating the carriers, Steenland said. The companies expect the merger to close by the end of the year. Northwest may operate as a standalone airline for a full year after the deal wraps up, he said.

While the combined airline's headquarters will be based in Atlanta, the merged company will continue to have a big presence in the Twin Cities. "What won't be different is that Minneapolis-St. Paul will continue to be a vibrant, robust hub," Steenland said.

The airline also will continue to support Twin Cities cultural institutions and non-profits, he said.

 

[licorice]

You're 767's pay 10% more than our 757's. Just like your 737's pay 10% more than our A320/319. I simply corrected Peanuckle's statement that DAL 767's pay more than NWA A330's. No need to get your double-breasted panties in a wad.
Thanks.

DTW320, now, you didn't just add the ol' $5/hr international overide to all your (base) payrates, did you? Guess what, you can add the same to all the DAL rates, and you're right back where you started from. A330=$167 767ER=$165! DTW would you rather work at an airline that had 32 A-330's paying $167/hr or an airline that had 80 767ER's paying $165/hr AND 21 767-400's paying $186/hr? (with a WEIGHTED AVERAGE of 101 767's paying $169/hr) Which of these would the average pilot (not DAL or NWA) choose? Why do you refuse to acknowledge the 767 for what it is? BTW, total DAL 767/57 capt.'s=1618 of which 827 are flying in the international category. (767ER,767-400)

 

[patrickdc9]

After the merger they will all be "New Delta" aircraft flown by "New Delta" pilots. The pay rates will be whatever is negotiated. If, for instance, you slot the A330 at the same pay rates as the 767-400, it is semantics to argue that the A330 "used" to be a lower paying aircraft. When deciding who brings what to the table you have to look at the new contract, not each carriers old contract. This is the crux of NWA's pilots anxiety over the merger. If their airplanes are slotted at the same level (or above) Delta's they want to continue to fly them. It's pretty simple.

The other fundamental question is how much future attrition decides a seniority list. In my opinion "dynamic seniority" is a good solution to this question. If NWA has the retirements they think they have the list stays at the same integration level as day one of the merger. If for some reason there aren't any retirements the list stays at the same integration level as day one of the merger. On the other hand, a set seniority list would move disproportionately toward Delta pilots if NWA has a lot of retirements, which would move Delta pilots into NWA airplanes.

It's not "semantics". The Delta MEC knows exactly what they're doing. They know that an arbitrator is going to put fences in place for several years. And by making the pay for all Delta airplanes a little higher paying than similar NWA aircraft, they are essentially creating an "A" scale and "B" scale. It's deplorable and it's exactly what ALPA national has been trying to eliminate for years, except it's not an airline management they battling but one of their own unions. Unbelievable.

 

[licorice]

It's not "semantics". The Delta MEC knows exactly what they're doing. They know that an arbitrator is going to put fences in place for several years. And by making the pay for all Delta airplanes a little higher paying than similar NWA aircraft, they are essentially creating an "A" scale and "B" scale. It's deplorable and it's exactly what ALPA national has been trying to eliminate for years, except it's not an airline management they battling but one of their own unions. Unbelievable.

But, what are your payrates now?(the same as they would be without this merger until what, 2011?) Under a joint contract negotiation, you can try to "up" those ESTABLISHED payrates. Would it have been better in LOA 19 not to have raised your rates, or better yet to have not even addressed your payrates?

 

[General Lee]

DTW320, now, you didn't just add the ol' $5/hr international overide to all your (base) payrates, did you? Guess what, you can add the same to all the DAL rates, and you're right back where you started from. A330=$167 767ER=$165! DTW would you rather work at an airline that had 32 A-330's paying $167/hr or an airline that had 80 767ER's paying $165/hr AND 21 767-400's paying $186/hr? (with a WEIGHTED AVERAGE of 101 767's paying $169/hr) Which of these would the average pilot (not DAL or NWA) choose? Why do you refuse to acknowledge the 767 for what it is? BTW, total DAL 767/57 capt.'s=1618 of which 827 are flying in the international category. (767ER,767-400)

Good post. Also, the 757 rates were brought UP to the 767 rates. We have INTL 757s (17 ex TWA birds plus 5 ex ATA 757s) doing INTL flying across the pond and down South also. Those pilots (Captains) get the $5 override during every one of those flights. (FOs get a whopping $3 extra an hour) So, are those 757s doing INTL flights considered "premium" 757s?

Also, we are getting 6 777LRs on FIRM order between Dec 31st of this year and March 31st of next year---including 3 on one day (March 31st, 09). We just had a new advanced entitlement bid for 35 777 Captains and 35 FOs (that's all the sim time we could get, and we just got a second 777 sim too). We will have 16 777s by next March, and rumor has it we may get 5 more soon from somewhere...??


And another thing that ticks me off---NWA loves to say that their A330s have "premium" flying, over our 764s.... Our farthest route on the 764 is Moscow (SVO) to ATL nonstop, which is 5382 miles. The farthest A332 nonstop is SFO to NRT--which is 5132 miles. Their AMS to BOM run is a lot shorter, at 4261 miles. But hey, I guess they have the corner on "Premium" widebody flying...... yeah, Okay.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Since we're on the topic of "premium flying", why should NWA's A320/319 fleet, which pays 319 rates and their DC-9 fleet be integrated with our "premium flying" MD-88/90 fleet? Particularly those DC-9s. The DC-9s are 75% older, have half the range and 20% less capacity. No way. It would be a windfall to even consider placing the DC-9 category on par with MD88s and MD90s, which are significantly more modern, with twice the range and significantly greater lift.

 

[Gunfighter]

Now we've defined it all.

NWA -Premium Widebody 330 and larger
No standard widebody
Premium narrowbody with the 757
Standard narrowbody with the DC-9, 319 and 320

DAL - Premium widebody 767-400 and larger
Regular widebody 767 and 767ER
Premium narrow body 737, MD-88 and 757 with pays regular widebody rates.
No regular narrow body.

The fact is NWA has a few bigger planes and LOTS of smaller planes. Very seldom does the topic of the small planes get addressed. As we debate preserving a limited number of "Premium Widebody" seats for NWA pilots, equal time should be focused on NWA pilots preserving their seats on the "Non-Premium Narrowbody" fleet. After all it's only fair that a pre-merger NWA pilot should be entitled to what they bring to the table. Keep DAL off of the "Premium Widebody" and PLEASE keep them off of the "Non-Premium Narrowbody"

 

[DTW320]

Also, the 757 rates were brought UP to the 767 rates.

Then why does it pay only 10% more than NWA 757? Same as all the other category comparisons. If it was truly brought up to a higher category's rate then wouldn't it be a greater % more than every other comparison?

DTW320, now, you didn't just add the ol' $5/hr international overide to all your (base) payrates, did you? Guess what, you can add the same to all the DAL rates, and you're right back where you started from.

Sure did. Why? Because 100% of the flying on them is international. Is 100% of DAL 757/767 flying international?

 

[FDJ2]

Then why does it pay only 10% more than NWA 757? Same as all the other category comparisons.

Because the Delta 757 and 767 pay "premium" rates and NWA 757s don't. The Delta 757 domestic pay is more similar to a NWA A330 than an NWA 757. Whether it flies domestic or international, the pre-merger pay is what matters.

Regardless, what are we going to do with the bulk of the NWA fleet, approx. 220 aircraft (320/319/DC-9), that pay less than the "premium" MD-88/90 at Delta?

Is a NWA DC-9 position truly on par with a DAL MD-88? Not really. It's 15 years older, flies half as far and has 20% less capacity.

What about your 320s that pay 319 rates? They also pay less than the "premium" MD88/90s. Delta MD-88/90 "premium narrow bodied rates" are more similar to NWA 757 rates than to NWA 319 rates, let alone DC-9 rates and we haven't even mentioned the DAL 737 category, which is as big as the NWA 757 category and has more "premium" pay. Certainly the premerger earnings and expectations on a NWA 757 are not on par with a DAL 737, which is a more modern aircraft and pays more. What to do?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Because 100% of the flying on them is international. quote]


Wrong.


Like I was when you simply said that to me, only very slightly wrong...and I'll leave you to figure out why.

Regardless... wrong.

 

[General Lee]

Then why does it pay only 10% more than NWA 757? Same as all the other category comparisons. If it was truly brought up to a higher category's rate then wouldn't it be a greater % more than every other comparison?

Sure did. Why? Because 100% of the flying on them is international. Is 100% of DAL 757/767 flying international?

I seem to recall Seattle Seahawk charters on the A330. Are those at INTL rates within the US? You said 100%............Are you sure about that? What about Green Bay Packer charters? Are you 100% sure?


Bye Bye--General Lee