A letter to a Delta Friend

[GogglesPisano]

After the merger they will all be "New Delta" aircraft flown by "New Delta" pilots. The pay rates will be whatever is negotiated. If, for instance, you slot the A330 at the same pay rates as the 767-400, it is semantics to argue that the A330 "used" to be a lower paying aircraft. When deciding who brings what to the table you have to look at the new contract, not each carriers old contract. This is the crux of NWA's pilots anxiety over the merger. If their airplanes are slotted at the same level (or above) Delta's they want to continue to fly them. It's pretty simple.

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So more negotiating capital has to be expended to bring NWA widebody pay up to DL widebody pay. Got it.

 

[FDJ2]

When deciding who brings what to the table you have to look at the new contract, not each carriers old contract.

Not necessarily true. If we go to arbitration your career expectations will be determined to some extent by the contract you had going in. Arbitrtors often look at premerger pay, work rules and aircraft to determine who benefitted the most from the merger going forward and then balance that with SLI.

The other fundamental question is how much future attrition decides a seniority list.

Why limit it to attrition, why not add in other elements such as the higher paying aircraft Delta pilots bring to the merger, the older aircraft NWA pilots bring to the merger. The average age of your DC-9s is 35 and 747-200s is 25. Where are the replacement orders for those aircraft. Why not also consider the aircraft orders books for each airline. It goes on and on.

I've never heard of an arbitrator awarding a dynamic list, have you? This isn't the first merger where there has been a difference in retirement trends. During some years more NWA pilots will retire, during other years more DAL pilots will retire. That is the nature of the beast in all mergers.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

We all know the 9s and 747-200s are going away at some point. So are the md80s,737s,75s,76s etc. Will those not be replaced? Of course they will, so why would the 9s not be replaced? Are you saying that in the largest airline in the world there is not going to be any aircraft btw the 76 seat outsourced rjs and the 319s or md80s? Seems like a fairly large gap to me. Are you guys willing to allow that to be outsourced or will you draw a line in the sand on scope? I sometimes get the feeling y'all have already conceded that the less than 124 seat flying is gone for good.

Why limit it to attrition, why not add in other elements such as the higher paying aircraft Delta pilots bring to the merger, the older aircraft NWA pilots bring to the merger. The average age of your DC-9s is 35 and 747-200s is 25. Where are the replacement orders for those aircraft. Why not also consider the aircraft orders books for each airline. It goes on and on.

I've never heard of an arbitrator awarding a dynamic list, have you? This isn't the first merger where there has been a difference in retirement trends. During some years more NWA pilots will retire, during other years more DAL pilots will retire. That is the nature of the beast in all mergers.

 

[Noserider76]

We all know the 9s and 747-200s are going away at some point. So are the md80s,737s,75s,76s etc. Will those not be replaced? Of course they will, so why would the 9s not be replaced? Are you saying that in the largest airline in the world there is not going to be any aircraft btw the 76 seat outsourced rjs and the 319s or md80s? Seems like a fairly large gap to me. Are you guys willing to allow that to be outsourced or will you draw a line in the sand on scope? I sometimes get the feeling y'all have already conceded that the less than 124 seat flying is gone for good.

I would love to see the joint contract address the issue by getting management to commit to a 100 seat mainline (-9 replacement) order in writing. It would go along way toward resolving a lot of uncertainty for both groups. We need to do it while we have the leverage. No one here is going to give any more ground on scope.

 

[jetjockey#1]

Does that "dynamic seniority" apply to both ends of the list? If you are trying to keep NWA pilots in NWA airplanes, then it should also be NWA pilots who feel the pinch of a retiring NWA airframe.

Excellent point. Also, vacancies derived from DAL retirees would be filled by DAL pilots only, right??

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

If dalpa does not give anymore up on scope then they will have to eventually order a 9 replacement. Just as the 78s will be the 76 replacement and my guess the 777-300 or whatever its called(the real long mofo I saw in hkg) will replace the 400s. Get my drift. As scope stands now there is too large a gap btw the 76 seaters and the mds/319s. The only way this order will not happen is one or both sides allowing it.

I would love to see the joint contract address the issue by getting management to commit to a 100 seat mainline (-9 replacement) order in writing. It would go along way toward resolving a lot of uncertainty for both groups. We need to do it while we have the leverage. No one here is going to give any more ground on scope.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

"Premium" wide body flying.....

Whatever....wide body is a wide body.....now somebody wants to make it extra extra extra premium???

I can't wait for these guys to come over and pollute the water

 

[Noserider76]

If dalpa does not give anymore up on scope then they will have to eventually order a 9 replacement. Just as the 78s will be the 76 replacement and my guess the 777-300 or whatever its called(the real long mofo I saw in hkg) will replace the 400s. Get my drift. As scope stands now there is too large a gap btw the 76 seaters and the mds/319s. The only way this order will not happen is one or both sides allowing it.

I get your drift but DL has been operating happily (it seems) with nothing between 76 seats and 142 seats (MD-88s) since we retired the 737-200/300s several years ago. My guess is that the DC-9-30s would have been gone if they weren't a common cockpit with the -50s.

I want to see the company locked into a commitment that that flying will be replaced with mainline so those jobs don't vaporize as thousands have done at both of our companies. I was 9000 something on the list when I was hired and we topped out at around 10500 or so. Now were at around 7500 and we've been lower. We need as much insurance as possible to avoid a repeat in the future.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

They haven't been very happy with the gap. They've been making do is more the appropriate description. There was active pursuance of the Embraer 190 series, but they decided they didn't want to have an airplane and leases that would be just a stand in until boeing comes out with their next narrowbody with the 787 engine tech.

That came from the horses mouth, so to speak.





BTW, what is all this about "the 767 paying the same as the 757" from the letter? The 757 pay rates are the same as the 767, however you look at it...and however you look at it, it pays more per hour than the A330. So, I look at it as our 757 pays more than the A330. Happy?

Also, I do agree the A330 is a far superior machine to the 767-400. That came as a surprise to see it listed the way it was in the LOA. Those aircraft aren't on our property anyways, so I looked at those as phantom aircrat that don't exist and won't exist on our seniority list until we are fully integrated operation.



Both carriers have strong career outlooks and both have tremendous strengths. This is more a merger of equals on most respects, in my eye. I assume lets go to arbitration for the SLI and get it over with (that is what is going to happen anyways- there will be b*tching from both sides as usual, too.)


Regardless, let's get a joint contract and all get more money in our pockets.

 

[Sedona16]

The "Premium Widebody" horse hockey is just the sort of semantics that piss the other side off and make people dig their feet in. I want to get the differences worked out on both sides as quickly as possible but when I read this childish attempt to grab more of the pie as it were it sure makes it hard to be sympathetic or listen to anything a NWA guys says next.

In fact now I read:

Northwest, Delta pilots plan to meet next week

Associated Press
Published on: 05/09/08
Minneapolis —- Pilots at Northwest Airlines say they'll meet with Delta pilots for two days next week to begin working out a joint contract.
The two pilot groups tried but failed to work out their differences before last month, when the two airlines announced their plans to join together.

The pilots failed to put together their seniority lists. Those seniority rankings are important to pilots because they determine who gets desirable planes and schedules.

A hot-line message from the Northwest pilots union says the meeting next week will focus on a joint contract, with seniority issues to come later.
Northwest pilots say they oppose the deal with Delta right now because they were left out. Delta pilots support it. The airlines don't need pilot permission to join.

....and now knowing how the northwest guys are trying to game the merge I say forget bringing them on to the new payrates prior to arbitration if thats the way they want to go. Let the PAY RATE DIFFERENCES ride and let the arbitrator see what pays more as currently locked and the northwest guys can say words like "premium widebody" till blue in the face but it will avail them nothing.