A letter to a Delta Friend

[licorice]

You're 767's pay 10% more than our 757's. Just like your 737's pay 10% more than our A320/319. I simply corrected Peanuckle's statement that DAL 767's pay more than NWA A330's. No need to get your double-breasted panties in a wad.
Thanks.

DTW320, now, you didn't just add the ol' $5/hr international overide to all your (base) payrates, did you? Guess what, you can add the same to all the DAL rates, and you're right back where you started from. A330=$167 767ER=$165! DTW would you rather work at an airline that had 32 A-330's paying $167/hr or an airline that had 80 767ER's paying $165/hr AND 21 767-400's paying $186/hr? (with a WEIGHTED AVERAGE of 101 767's paying $169/hr) Which of these would the average pilot (not DAL or NWA) choose? Why do you refuse to acknowledge the 767 for what it is? BTW, total DAL 767/57 capt.'s=1618 of which 827 are flying in the international category. (767ER,767-400)

 

[patrickdc9]

After the merger they will all be "New Delta" aircraft flown by "New Delta" pilots. The pay rates will be whatever is negotiated. If, for instance, you slot the A330 at the same pay rates as the 767-400, it is semantics to argue that the A330 "used" to be a lower paying aircraft. When deciding who brings what to the table you have to look at the new contract, not each carriers old contract. This is the crux of NWA's pilots anxiety over the merger. If their airplanes are slotted at the same level (or above) Delta's they want to continue to fly them. It's pretty simple.

The other fundamental question is how much future attrition decides a seniority list. In my opinion "dynamic seniority" is a good solution to this question. If NWA has the retirements they think they have the list stays at the same integration level as day one of the merger. If for some reason there aren't any retirements the list stays at the same integration level as day one of the merger. On the other hand, a set seniority list would move disproportionately toward Delta pilots if NWA has a lot of retirements, which would move Delta pilots into NWA airplanes.

It's not "semantics". The Delta MEC knows exactly what they're doing. They know that an arbitrator is going to put fences in place for several years. And by making the pay for all Delta airplanes a little higher paying than similar NWA aircraft, they are essentially creating an "A" scale and "B" scale. It's deplorable and it's exactly what ALPA national has been trying to eliminate for years, except it's not an airline management they battling but one of their own unions. Unbelievable.

 

[licorice]

It's not "semantics". The Delta MEC knows exactly what they're doing. They know that an arbitrator is going to put fences in place for several years. And by making the pay for all Delta airplanes a little higher paying than similar NWA aircraft, they are essentially creating an "A" scale and "B" scale. It's deplorable and it's exactly what ALPA national has been trying to eliminate for years, except it's not an airline management they battling but one of their own unions. Unbelievable.

But, what are your payrates now?(the same as they would be without this merger until what, 2011?) Under a joint contract negotiation, you can try to "up" those ESTABLISHED payrates. Would it have been better in LOA 19 not to have raised your rates, or better yet to have not even addressed your payrates?

 

[General Lee]

DTW320, now, you didn't just add the ol' $5/hr international overide to all your (base) payrates, did you? Guess what, you can add the same to all the DAL rates, and you're right back where you started from. A330=$167 767ER=$165! DTW would you rather work at an airline that had 32 A-330's paying $167/hr or an airline that had 80 767ER's paying $165/hr AND 21 767-400's paying $186/hr? (with a WEIGHTED AVERAGE of 101 767's paying $169/hr) Which of these would the average pilot (not DAL or NWA) choose? Why do you refuse to acknowledge the 767 for what it is? BTW, total DAL 767/57 capt.'s=1618 of which 827 are flying in the international category. (767ER,767-400)

Good post. Also, the 757 rates were brought UP to the 767 rates. We have INTL 757s (17 ex TWA birds plus 5 ex ATA 757s) doing INTL flying across the pond and down South also. Those pilots (Captains) get the $5 override during every one of those flights. (FOs get a whopping $3 extra an hour) So, are those 757s doing INTL flights considered "premium" 757s?

Also, we are getting 6 777LRs on FIRM order between Dec 31st of this year and March 31st of next year---including 3 on one day (March 31st, 09). We just had a new advanced entitlement bid for 35 777 Captains and 35 FOs (that's all the sim time we could get, and we just got a second 777 sim too). We will have 16 777s by next March, and rumor has it we may get 5 more soon from somewhere...??


And another thing that ticks me off---NWA loves to say that their A330s have "premium" flying, over our 764s.... Our farthest route on the 764 is Moscow (SVO) to ATL nonstop, which is 5382 miles. The farthest A332 nonstop is SFO to NRT--which is 5132 miles. Their AMS to BOM run is a lot shorter, at 4261 miles. But hey, I guess they have the corner on "Premium" widebody flying...... yeah, Okay.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Since we're on the topic of "premium flying", why should NWA's A320/319 fleet, which pays 319 rates and their DC-9 fleet be integrated with our "premium flying" MD-88/90 fleet? Particularly those DC-9s. The DC-9s are 75% older, have half the range and 20% less capacity. No way. It would be a windfall to even consider placing the DC-9 category on par with MD88s and MD90s, which are significantly more modern, with twice the range and significantly greater lift.

 

[Gunfighter]

Now we've defined it all.

NWA -Premium Widebody 330 and larger
No standard widebody
Premium narrowbody with the 757
Standard narrowbody with the DC-9, 319 and 320

DAL - Premium widebody 767-400 and larger
Regular widebody 767 and 767ER
Premium narrow body 737, MD-88 and 757 with pays regular widebody rates.
No regular narrow body.

The fact is NWA has a few bigger planes and LOTS of smaller planes. Very seldom does the topic of the small planes get addressed. As we debate preserving a limited number of "Premium Widebody" seats for NWA pilots, equal time should be focused on NWA pilots preserving their seats on the "Non-Premium Narrowbody" fleet. After all it's only fair that a pre-merger NWA pilot should be entitled to what they bring to the table. Keep DAL off of the "Premium Widebody" and PLEASE keep them off of the "Non-Premium Narrowbody"

 

[DTW320]

Also, the 757 rates were brought UP to the 767 rates.

Then why does it pay only 10% more than NWA 757? Same as all the other category comparisons. If it was truly brought up to a higher category's rate then wouldn't it be a greater % more than every other comparison?

DTW320, now, you didn't just add the ol' $5/hr international overide to all your (base) payrates, did you? Guess what, you can add the same to all the DAL rates, and you're right back where you started from.

Sure did. Why? Because 100% of the flying on them is international. Is 100% of DAL 757/767 flying international?

 

[FDJ2]

Then why does it pay only 10% more than NWA 757? Same as all the other category comparisons.

Because the Delta 757 and 767 pay "premium" rates and NWA 757s don't. The Delta 757 domestic pay is more similar to a NWA A330 than an NWA 757. Whether it flies domestic or international, the pre-merger pay is what matters.

Regardless, what are we going to do with the bulk of the NWA fleet, approx. 220 aircraft (320/319/DC-9), that pay less than the "premium" MD-88/90 at Delta?

Is a NWA DC-9 position truly on par with a DAL MD-88? Not really. It's 15 years older, flies half as far and has 20% less capacity.

What about your 320s that pay 319 rates? They also pay less than the "premium" MD88/90s. Delta MD-88/90 "premium narrow bodied rates" are more similar to NWA 757 rates than to NWA 319 rates, let alone DC-9 rates and we haven't even mentioned the DAL 737 category, which is as big as the NWA 757 category and has more "premium" pay. Certainly the premerger earnings and expectations on a NWA 757 are not on par with a DAL 737, which is a more modern aircraft and pays more. What to do?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Because 100% of the flying on them is international. quote]


Wrong.


Like I was when you simply said that to me, only very slightly wrong...and I'll leave you to figure out why.

Regardless... wrong.

 

[General Lee]

Then why does it pay only 10% more than NWA 757? Same as all the other category comparisons. If it was truly brought up to a higher category's rate then wouldn't it be a greater % more than every other comparison?

Sure did. Why? Because 100% of the flying on them is international. Is 100% of DAL 757/767 flying international?

I seem to recall Seattle Seahawk charters on the A330. Are those at INTL rates within the US? You said 100%............Are you sure about that? What about Green Bay Packer charters? Are you 100% sure?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cobra17]

He defines "premium paying" widebody aircraft by size and range. DL's "non-premium" widebodies are both more numerous and pay more than NWA's.

I'd rather fly a "non-premium" 757 at Delta if it pays, say $15 more per hour than the A330 at year 3.

I'm not sure I understand the importance of the size of the aircraft when analyzing who is bringing what to the table. Isn't pay more important?

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/northwest.html

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta.html

Yikes! Hope you're not on the NC. You must have a short memory.

United and Delta both gave up a lot in scope in 2000-2001 in exchange for their big pay raises with WB Capts topping out at over $300,000+ a year.

Those pay scales are long gone, but there are still plenty of RJs flying around in United and Delta liveries.

While I'm sure you are worth $15/hr more than any NWA pilot, there is a lot more to negotiating a contract than basic pay rates.

 

[FL510in10min]

I doubt there would be any provision for that

 

[General Lee]

Yikes! Hope you're not on the NC. You must have a short memory.

United and Delta both gave up a lot in scope in 2000-2001 in exchange for their big pay raises with WB Capts topping out at over $300,000+ a year.

Those pay scales are long gone, but there are still plenty of RJs flying around in United and Delta liveries.

While I'm sure you are worth $15/hr more than any NWA pilot, there is a lot more to negotiating a contract than basic pay rates.

And maybe you didn't hear about the 75 50 seat RJs we are parking? And thanks for bringing up the way we negotiate. I guess you didn't see that we just made a Letter of Agreement with management (which we are voting on now) thanks to our own scope language about flying a seperate airline within an airline? Our contract said none of that could occur without our YES, and same goes for codeshares. So, we were the ones holding up this merger--and management had to come to us for agreement. (Codeshares with NWA and Midwest had to be approved by us). So, as you can see, we didn't ONLY have better pay rates. Scope doesn't only deal with RJs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[licorice]

Then why does it pay only 10% more than NWA 757? Same as all the other category comparisons. If it was truly brought up to a higher category's rate then wouldn't it be a greater % more than every other comparison?

Sure did. Why? Because 100% of the flying on them is international. Is 100% of DAL 757/767 flying international?

dtw: DAL has 59 767-300ER, 17 757-200ER (all in the same catagory, flying international with the $5 overide,and all paying $165/hr) and 21 767-400ER(different catagory, all international, with the $5 overide paying $186/hr) There are 21 domestic 767-300's and 120 757's paying a "measly" $160/hr. Is that enough international flying? Are you trying to make the case that there is more A-330 international at NWA than there is 767 international at DAL? You would be wrong. If you are saying the A-330 is a "higher" category than the 767-300ER I would agree, LOA19 establishes the A-330 rate higher than the 767ER rate.(but about the same as the 767-400) If you are saying your 757 fleet is the "equivalent" of our 767ER fleet you would be wrong.

 

[DTW320]

dtw: DAL has 59 767-300ER, 17 757-200ER (all in the same catagory, flying international with the $5 overide,and all paying $165/hr) and 21 767-400ER(different catagory, all international, with the $5 overide paying $186/hr) There are 21 domestic 767-300's and 120 757's paying a "measly" $160/hr. Is that enough international flying? Are you trying to make the case that there is more A-330 international at NWA than there is 767 international at DAL?

Are you incapable of following a thread? Apparently. I notice you didn't answer the ? about why DL international 767-300ER only pays 10% more than domestic NWA 757, the same differential that exists between every NW/DAL comparison, yet we are to believe that the DL 757 was "brought up" to 767 rates. Gee, if it hadn't been then I guess it would pay the same as NWA 757 and would be the only case of parity between common airplanes in the two fleets.....Riiiiiight.

Are you trying to make the case that there is more A-330 international at NWA than there is 767 international at DAL?

As a percentage of the total flying that they do....YES. I was not making that some battle cry as you Deltoids desperately try to insinuate. I was correcting an earlier post that said DL757 pays more than NW A330 and pointing out that in 100% of the scheduled flying the NWA 330 pilot is getting $5.17/hr($3.88 FO) Intl Override. 100% of DAL 767 flying does not. Excuse me for trying to, yet again, convince the average deltoid to compare apples to apples.