9E/XJ/9L contract is out

[CptMurf]

How about your DH pay? Why is it OK for you to not get 100%? And this is a 5 year contract?! That is nuts.

Why is it OK for you to not have a 4 hour min day? We've had that since '04. And on a daily basis, not a look back or average. That is nuts.

 

[Raskal]

Murf, I agree with you on many things and though I respect and understand your views I definitely do not share them on this contract.

We had an opportunity to use the considerable leverage of Pinnacle's expensive health care package to entice a decent contract out of the negotiations. We missed the mark by a very, very long shot. Speed was the priority here, not quality, as evidenced by all the back-patting about 102 days in the emails and the road show(s).

1. Someone mentioned earlier about "be careful talking about accrual of sick time since it leads to the best short-term disability blah-blah". Know what? We all need to put down the union kool-aid for a moment. To compare anything we have with the majors is ridiculous, especially only when convenient.

The reason the majors don't have the same short-term disability is simply because they don't need it. They have a sick policy that actually accrues a reasonable amount of hours per month. 36 hours per year?!? That is a steaming pile.

2. Extensions and Junior manning. I love how the MEC is patting themselves on the back about the 200% pay like they won some sort of victory (though 100% DH pay is out of the question). As though paying us 200% will somehow be prohibitively expensive and stop the extensions/junior manning. You must be kidding. They are guilty, as are many pilots, of looking at numbers as they appply to their own life/world and not that of a company. Paying us 200%, 400% and so on is still cheaper than hiring more pilots. Mostly, this is because we make peanuts.

For those kids who still live in their parent's basement the 200% pay is great. Bully for them and the new PS3 games they get to buy. For those with a family, an overnight extension can mean child care issues and major expenses. I, and many others, came to the airlines for an actual "schedule". If I wanted random changes to my flying I would've stayed in corporate.

We are giving management permission to continue to run an airline understaffed. This is cheaper for them.

Finally, congratulations on how fast the negotiations took place. It shows.

Vote NO.

 

[CptMurf]

We've flown and talked many times Raskal, and I respect your position. I see pros and cons to this TA, and am not totally sold that is "superior" or "industry leading."

Good or Bad, I am in a much different position than yourself, mainly because of seniority. Although it seems selfish, we all have to vote based on how it affects us personally, then live with the majorities decision. However this gets voted, I am ok with the outcome.

I've tried to stay away from selling or defending this TA one way or the other since it was finalized. My posts lately have been against the ASA types that inject whether the deal is good or not, and that their contract is better or not. It really does not involve them. Vote your heart and have a clean conscience, I will NOT be one to have a "Don't blame me..." sticker, no matter how the vote goes.

 

[Ridgeback]

really? Hotels? We're talking about hotels?
You guys make it sound like you're in these places for 2-3 weeks at a time on vacation with your families, and you need more local attractions to go see.
personally, I would rather take a dump hotel (because there really is no difference, they're all filthy sexed out sex chambers) for a higher paycheck.

I agree we should take LESS health care, most don't really use it, How about LESS DH pay..you should just put avoid DH in your PBS bid so thats your own fault, How about we totally dump our training language, talk about something we harldy use (twice a year for captains and one a year for FO's). I TOTALLY agree with you, everthing should be about pay/hr. I'm sure the 2nd year SWA pilots making $95/hr all get crappy hotels, crappy health care, and crappy training...

 

[Raskal]

...Vote your heart and have a clean conscience, I will NOT be one to have a "Don't blame me..." sticker, no matter how the vote goes.

On this note I certainly agree, No "don't blame me" either. Whatever happens, the majority decides and we move on. The important thing is that we are unified with the next step.

 

[Flyprdu]

really? Hotels? We're talking about hotels?
You guys make it sound like you're in these places for 2-3 weeks at a time on vacation with your families, and you need more local attractions to go see.
personally, I would rather take a dump hotel (because there really is no difference, they're all filthy sexed out sex chambers) for a higher paycheck.

We all know that you have no self-respect, and that you were molested as a kid, Wayback.

No need to broadcast your lack of self worth to everyone.

 

[sweptback]

Why is it OK for you to not have a 4 hour min day? We've had that since '04. And on a daily basis, not a look back or average. That is nuts.

ASA has 3.86, plus a duty rig. And lately, I've been deadheading much more than I've had a day that only paid the min day. The min day is there to entice the company to build efficient trips, at least that's the way ASA looks at it.

And as for hotel language, I spend about a third of the year in hotels. It is amazing how much better our hotels got once we got decent language. I don't mind giving up a free continental breakfast to stay downtown in AVL, CAE, YUL, YYZ, ORD, LGA, JFK, BOS, DCA, etc. Much better than spending 19 hours at an interstate exit hotel with a fast food joint and a gas station.

 

[RJLoser]

ASA has 3.86, plus a duty rig. And lately, I've been deadheading much more than I've had a day that only paid the min day. The min day is there to entice the company to build efficient trips, at least that's the way ASA looks at it.

And as for hotel language, I spend about a third of the year in hotels. It is amazing how much better our hotels got once we got decent language. I don't mind giving up a free continental breakfast to stay downtown in AVL, CAE, YUL, YYZ, ORD, LGA, JFK, BOS, DCA, etc. Much better than spending 19 hours at an interstate exit hotel with a fast food joint and a gas station.

Downtown in YYZ, LGA, JFK, ORD? Have a nice van ride.

 

[sweptback]

Downtown in YYZ, LGA, JFK, ORD? Have a nice van ride.

And yet nobody complains about it.

 

[XJPilot547]

And yet nobody complains about it.

We're pilots. I'm SURE some of your guys complain about it.

 

[RJLoser]

And yet nobody complains about it.

Man, Sounds like everything is perfect at ASA!

 

[e=mc2]

In addition to escalating your insurance costs, you have locked yourself into basement 900 pay for the remainder of your career.

Being a Pinnacle Pilot should be an insanity defense.

 

[dcfu69]

Murf, I agree with you on many things and though I respect and understand your views I definitely do not share them on this contract.

We had an opportunity to use the considerable leverage of Pinnacle's expensive health care package to entice a decent contract out of the negotiations. We missed the mark by a very, very long shot. Speed was the priority here, not quality, as evidenced by all the back-patting about 102 days in the emails and the road show(s).

1. Someone mentioned earlier about "be careful talking about accrual of sick time since it leads to the best short-term disability blah-blah". Know what? We all need to put down the union kool-aid for a moment. To compare anything we have with the majors is ridiculous, especially only when convenient.

The reason the majors don't have the same short-term disability is simply because they don't need it. They have a sick policy that actually accrues a reasonable amount of hours per month. 36 hours per year?!? That is a steaming pile.

2. Extensions and Junior manning. I love how the MEC is patting themselves on the back about the 200% pay like they won some sort of victory (though 100% DH pay is out of the question). As though paying us 200% will somehow be prohibitively expensive and stop the extensions/junior manning. You must be kidding. They are guilty, as are many pilots, of looking at numbers as they appply to their own life/world and not that of a company. Paying us 200%, 400% and so on is still cheaper than hiring more pilots. Mostly, this is because we make peanuts.

For those kids who still live in their parent's basement the 200% pay is great. Bully for them and the new PS3 games they get to buy. For those with a family, an overnight extension can mean child care issues and major expenses. I, and many others, came to the airlines for an actual "schedule". If I wanted random changes to my flying I would've stayed in corporate.

We are giving management permission to continue to run an airline understaffed. This is cheaper for them.

Finally, congratulations on how fast the negotiations took place. It shows.

Vote NO.

EXCELLENT POST... I'm glad other people out there feel the way I do about this contract. It was ALL about getting it done ASAP, forget about a WELL ROUNDED contract. But its ok guys.... we will work on the cons in about 8-10 years. GO ALPA!!!!

 

[CptMurf]

Ok. Let's play devils advocate...

9E
Even with some losses in provisions, I have been told this TA is vastly superior to TA1, and will overall achieve major gains to 9E pilots.

XJ
Most language is current book. The changes that are there, incorporate accepted practices at the other carriers. And provisions (protections) have been set to change current practices (JMs, Extensions, Drs notes, etc.)

9L
This is a first contract. With OVERWHELMING gains achieved over current book. The proceived losses due to carve outs, would most likely not have been attained in section 6.

If voted down, do you believe a better TA is attainable? Considering the aircraft ARE going to transfer in MAY regardless of the JCBA/SLI being complete, could we attain said TA in the timeline we have to do it? Is the risk vs reward acceptable, given that there is the possibility of massive furloughs, walkouts, and bankruptcy? And could we each individually attain something reasonably close to this, if we are fighting amongst ourselves, scoping each other out, etc.?

 

[titans10]

Being a Pinnacle Pilot should be an insanity defense.[/QUOTE]

That would apply to any regional.