9E/XJ/9L contract is out

[TailHeavy]

The problem with this TA is QOL. We don’t have stability with this new contract because of the displacement and commuting language. It will be very easy for the company to issue a displacement rather than a vacancy. It will cost the company very little to force you to move to a new base without any bumping rights. To make it worse it may not even be commutable. They will now be able to fine-tune base realignments without the cost that they have incurred in the past. We were thrown under the bus in regards to these two sections! This will trash the quality of life for anyone that gets displaced. At least on the current contract it cost them to do this to us and we had some bump options. On the new contract we relocate to the base of their choice for super cheap.

The other things that are worse than what we have now is vacation, insurance, check in time and depending on what side of the fence you’re on dual qualification. Some will find days off to be worse in TA2. Those that used to get 10 off will get 11 but to make up for it, those that used to hold 12 to 13 off may also get 11 off. Also, a rumor is out that 475 pilots who are in the middle of the 9e seniority list can expect a lower signing bonus than on TA1.

All of these issues (except displacement and commuting) can be managed and maybe even offset with the little pay raise that is expected. What can’t be offset is the threat of being displaced at the drop of a hat and unable to commute back to my family and home. This one issue is enough for me to prefer the contract I work under now over TA2.

It’s not industry leading! At best it's industry average and even that's stretching it!

[FONT=&quot]Also, we can’t have “one contract, one voice, one whatever” with two pay rates. How can Colgan make less and be together equally on this? I don’t even work at Colgan but it’s certainly not industry leading for them to make less than others flying the same equipment.[/FONT]

Top Gum....Maybe your should read the TA and not get your INFO on here before you chime in. Commuter Clause prior to TA was at the companies discretion; ie. they can change or cancel it whenever they want. Explain how people holding 12-13 Days off will now have 11? Your logic makes no sense. I guess you like working for and extra 15 minutes for free...or flying 2.5 hrs/day and getting paid that....TA2?????What's that? Dual Qual...Explain this for me....Why it'll be worse....not what it is. Check in time....cuz 15 minutes is so crucial and QOL wrecking....This TA sounds so much worse than Current Conract.

 

[Top Gum]

Top Gum....Maybe your should read the TA and not get your INFO on here before you chime in

And you talk about not making sense.

Commuter Clause prior to TA was at the companies discretion; ie. they can change or cancel it whenever they want.

Yes, you are correct. Now TA2 will lock us into a poor commuter policy.

Explain how people holding 12-13 Days off will now have 11? Your logic makes no sense.

I didn't say that that they WILL get 11 off. I said they MAY. It’s speculation on my part and the logic does make sense. If all those holding 10 off go to 11 the manpower will have to come from someplace. All I'm saying is that I think we will see less 12 and 13 day off lines as a result.

I guess you like working for and extra 15 minutes for free...or flying 2.5 hrs/day and getting paid that....TA2?????

Again, this sentence makes no sense but I will try to give a response. TA2 requires us to check in 15 min earlier than before without any extra pay. For a hi-speeder that adds up to a lot of time without pay. It's no big deal but it is a move in the wrong direction.

What's that? Dual Qual...Explain this for me....Why it'll be worse....not what it is.

Again, that's Not what I said. I didn't say it WILL be worse. This is a problem for some and not for others. Some don’t mind it but some hate the thought of having increased training obligations.

It seems to me that you missed my point. Most of these problem areas can be justified by the small pay increase but for me the displacement and commuter language is a huge problem.

 

[TailHeavy]

Please explain what part of the displacement clause your talking about?

 

[Top Gum]

In the old contract we got 45 days of hotel pay but in the new we only get two weeks. In the old we got more moving days and more moving money too. In the old contract we also had bumping rights. In the new it appears that we do not. The only reason that I say, “appears” is because a union rep told us this. I haven’t confirmed the no bump part myself but I will.

Regardless, It doesn’t cost the company nearly as much to displace us in the new contract and therefore I think we will see an increase in displacements in the future. It sounds to me like the displacements will be handled much like the way Mesa does it.

The Displacement language should be super strong in an “industry leading” contract. Not a step backwards. If we are pushed into an unplanned move it can and will be horrible for our QOL. It should cost them a fortune to make us uproot our families like that. Being pushed out of home or taking children out of school is brutal to a family and they should have to pay a HUGE penalty for that.

 

[CAPIP1998]

In the old contract we got 45 days of hotel pay but in the new we only get two weeks. In the old we got more moving days and more moving money too. In the old contract we also had bumping rights. In the new it appears that we do not. The only reason that I say, “appears” is because a union rep told us this. I haven’t confirmed the no bump part myself but I will.

Regardless, It doesn’t cost the company nearly as much to displace us in the new contract and therefore I think we will see an increase in displacements in the future. It sounds to me like the displacements will be handled much like the way Mesa does it.

The Displacement language should be super strong in an “industry leading” contract. Not a step backwards. If we are pushed into an unplanned move it can and will be horrible for our QOL. It should cost them a fortune to make us uproot our families like that. Being pushed out of home or taking children out of school is brutal to a family and they should have to pay a HUGE penalty for that.

Obviously, I don't know who you're getting your information from, but your perception that our displacement language isn't "strong" couldn't be further from the truth. A displaced pilot get FULL bumping rights to any junior position in the system (i.e. ALL of pinnacle corp). Instead of costing the company about $6000 to displace a pilot, they are now exposed to tens of thousands of dollars in training costs as even a small displacement can cascade throughout the system (and you still get moving expenses, just not the lump sum payout in the old Pinnacle contract). There is a HUGE financial disincentive for the Company to displace, and at the end none of the pilots incur a freeze so we can move right back out of the displaced positions on the next award.

The full language is available at www.alpa.org/pnclta. Go read for yourself what it says in 6 and 24. For everybody's sake, don't believe what I or anybody else on the interwebz says. Read it for yourself or go to a roadshow and ask questions.

 

[Top Gum]

Capip, thanks for clearing that up about the bumping rights. That does make me feel better about it. I would still like to see them have to incur the same pilot payouts as before. Like the 45 days of hotel money, move package and time off. At least it’s not quite as bad as what I was told

 

[Top Gum]

[FONT=&quot]CptMurf. Thanks also. For some reason I didn’t see your post previously. As you probably can tell this current displacement of MEM and MSP has me a little aggravated.[/FONT]

 

[Kaman]

This isn't the military and we are not in "service" of our corporation. We are employed as "professionals"... Supposedly.

We spend massive amounts of our lives in company hotels, and it is reasonable to expect a high quality hotel with food and things to do near by. Doesn't have to be the Grand Hyatt Regency, but Comfort Inn is not acceptable.

People who make any comparison of airline pay, working conditions and benefits to military service are way out of line.

Do I detect a bit of disgruntlement in your response? I wasn't going to respond to this post initially, but one part of your post really struck me as absolutely absurd. "things to do nearby"??? Are you kidding me? What is that you expect in the way of things to do on an RON?
Tastes in overnight accommodations for an airline overnight is subjective. I can tell you some real horror stories of some of my recent overnights, but it is par for the course when you fly into some of the towns we serve. I am really amazed at all the rancor that is being raised over something that in the final analysis is a SMALL portion of the job...You have to ask yourself what is more of a priority.
And, your tone about military service isn't appreciated either.

 

[Smarta$$]

Do I detect a bit of disgruntlement in your response? I wasn't going to respond to this post initially, but one part of your post really struck me as absolutely absurd. "things to do nearby"??? Are you kidding me? What is that you expect in the way of things to do on an RON?
Tastes in overnight accommodations for an airline overnight is subjective. I can tell you some real horror stories of some of my recent overnights, but it is par for the course when you fly into some of the towns we serve. I am really amazed at all the rancor that is being raised over something that in the final analysis is a SMALL portion of the job...You have to ask yourself what is more of a priority.
And, your tone about military service isn't appreciated either.

1. It is actually in the JCBA for out of domicile reserve to have "entertainment" near the hotel. So it is not that ridiculous to ask for SOMETHING to do on a 18 hour overnight.

2. I don't have any resentment toward military service, at all. I do have a problem with people comparing our pay, working hours or accommodations to those in the military or using military pay, working hours or accommodations as a benchmark (in any way) for what ours should be or what we should find acceptable.

I do not "serve" my CEO in the sense that an enlisted man or woman serves their nation. I offer my professional services and expect to be paid, worked and accommodated as such, including hotels.

Got it?

 

[CptMurf]

Kaman- I appreciate and thank you for your service. It has paved the way so that those that have never volunteered, can argue about what level of hotel should be acceptable.

 

[Kaman]

For the record, I am voting yes...After reading some of this thread I will know where to get a good laugh if the Nintendo game console in my luxurious hotel accommodations is out of service.
I am very grateful that I had the privilege to fly as a crewmember in military aircraft at-sea and in combat conditions...I know all too many that served as mere "enlisted" that made the ultimate sacrifice, so you can act like a pompous jack@ss.

VOTING YES on TA...Voted FOR ALPA 06' and 08'

 

[xjgearbtch]

Is the room clean? safe? Anything else is superfluous...Sure, it is nice to stay at a "nice" hotel and more often we do even flying the SAAB. However, I think that the hotel issue is something that should be way down the list of priorities. Some people, and I have to say in most cases, flight attendants are the biggest sources of complaints regarding hotels.
Perhaps it is because I spent a good portion of my young adult life aboard Frigates, Destroyers and Aircraft Carriers that my tolerance of more Spartan hotels is higher than the average pilot.

What a tool. Your fellow servicemen are embarrassed by your childish response. Beating your chest like this is a joke. You're comparing apples to oranges. You might as well have said that you often camp during the winter in a tent and that increases your tolerance. It makes no sense and doesn't apply to what we're talking about.

 

[Kaman]

You take yourself way too seriously if that is what you actually think...

 

[xjgearbtch]

Par for the course just what I expected

 

[Kaman]

I know that is exactly what you were expecting...Absolutely predictable response wasn't it?

 

[Smarta$$]

Kaman- I appreciate and thank you for your service. It has paved the way so that those that have never volunteered, can argue about what level of hotel should be acceptable.

This isn't military service Murf. I am NOT enlisted to "serve" PNCL Holdings and working for PNCL is NOT "serving" my country. It is an exchange of professional services for compensation with a corporation.

Comparing the two with one another is ignorant, at best.

 

[CptMurf]

This isn't military service Murf. I am NOT enlisted to "serve" PNCL Holdings and working for PNCL is NOT "serving" my country. It is an exchange of professional services for compensation with a corporation.

Comparing the two with one another is ignorant, at best.

I don't know what your motivation is in calling me out here. I was thanking him for his service. Without it, we couldn't openly post openly on the Internet about any contract items. Take a look at how Egypt mysteriously just lost all access to the Internet. Want to live there, or stay in those hotels?

I have spoke my piece on the hotel issue, to drag it on any farther is ignorant, at best.