9E/XJ/9L contract is out

[Flyprdu]

really? Hotels? We're talking about hotels?
You guys make it sound like you're in these places for 2-3 weeks at a time on vacation with your families, and you need more local attractions to go see.
personally, I would rather take a dump hotel (because there really is no difference, they're all filthy sexed out sex chambers) for a higher paycheck.

We all know that you have no self-respect, and that you were molested as a kid, Wayback.

No need to broadcast your lack of self worth to everyone.

 

[sweptback]

Why is it OK for you to not have a 4 hour min day? We've had that since '04. And on a daily basis, not a look back or average. That is nuts.

ASA has 3.86, plus a duty rig. And lately, I've been deadheading much more than I've had a day that only paid the min day. The min day is there to entice the company to build efficient trips, at least that's the way ASA looks at it.

And as for hotel language, I spend about a third of the year in hotels. It is amazing how much better our hotels got once we got decent language. I don't mind giving up a free continental breakfast to stay downtown in AVL, CAE, YUL, YYZ, ORD, LGA, JFK, BOS, DCA, etc. Much better than spending 19 hours at an interstate exit hotel with a fast food joint and a gas station.

 

[RJLoser]

ASA has 3.86, plus a duty rig. And lately, I've been deadheading much more than I've had a day that only paid the min day. The min day is there to entice the company to build efficient trips, at least that's the way ASA looks at it.

And as for hotel language, I spend about a third of the year in hotels. It is amazing how much better our hotels got once we got decent language. I don't mind giving up a free continental breakfast to stay downtown in AVL, CAE, YUL, YYZ, ORD, LGA, JFK, BOS, DCA, etc. Much better than spending 19 hours at an interstate exit hotel with a fast food joint and a gas station.

Downtown in YYZ, LGA, JFK, ORD? Have a nice van ride.

 

[sweptback]

Downtown in YYZ, LGA, JFK, ORD? Have a nice van ride.

And yet nobody complains about it.

 

[XJPilot547]

And yet nobody complains about it.

We're pilots. I'm SURE some of your guys complain about it.

 

[RJLoser]

And yet nobody complains about it.

Man, Sounds like everything is perfect at ASA!

 

[e=mc2]

In addition to escalating your insurance costs, you have locked yourself into basement 900 pay for the remainder of your career.

Being a Pinnacle Pilot should be an insanity defense.

 

[dcfu69]

Murf, I agree with you on many things and though I respect and understand your views I definitely do not share them on this contract.

We had an opportunity to use the considerable leverage of Pinnacle's expensive health care package to entice a decent contract out of the negotiations. We missed the mark by a very, very long shot. Speed was the priority here, not quality, as evidenced by all the back-patting about 102 days in the emails and the road show(s).

1. Someone mentioned earlier about "be careful talking about accrual of sick time since it leads to the best short-term disability blah-blah". Know what? We all need to put down the union kool-aid for a moment. To compare anything we have with the majors is ridiculous, especially only when convenient.

The reason the majors don't have the same short-term disability is simply because they don't need it. They have a sick policy that actually accrues a reasonable amount of hours per month. 36 hours per year?!? That is a steaming pile.

2. Extensions and Junior manning. I love how the MEC is patting themselves on the back about the 200% pay like they won some sort of victory (though 100% DH pay is out of the question). As though paying us 200% will somehow be prohibitively expensive and stop the extensions/junior manning. You must be kidding. They are guilty, as are many pilots, of looking at numbers as they appply to their own life/world and not that of a company. Paying us 200%, 400% and so on is still cheaper than hiring more pilots. Mostly, this is because we make peanuts.

For those kids who still live in their parent's basement the 200% pay is great. Bully for them and the new PS3 games they get to buy. For those with a family, an overnight extension can mean child care issues and major expenses. I, and many others, came to the airlines for an actual "schedule". If I wanted random changes to my flying I would've stayed in corporate.

We are giving management permission to continue to run an airline understaffed. This is cheaper for them.

Finally, congratulations on how fast the negotiations took place. It shows.

Vote NO.

EXCELLENT POST... I'm glad other people out there feel the way I do about this contract. It was ALL about getting it done ASAP, forget about a WELL ROUNDED contract. But its ok guys.... we will work on the cons in about 8-10 years. GO ALPA!!!!

 

[CptMurf]

Ok. Let's play devils advocate...

9E
Even with some losses in provisions, I have been told this TA is vastly superior to TA1, and will overall achieve major gains to 9E pilots.

XJ
Most language is current book. The changes that are there, incorporate accepted practices at the other carriers. And provisions (protections) have been set to change current practices (JMs, Extensions, Drs notes, etc.)

9L
This is a first contract. With OVERWHELMING gains achieved over current book. The proceived losses due to carve outs, would most likely not have been attained in section 6.

If voted down, do you believe a better TA is attainable? Considering the aircraft ARE going to transfer in MAY regardless of the JCBA/SLI being complete, could we attain said TA in the timeline we have to do it? Is the risk vs reward acceptable, given that there is the possibility of massive furloughs, walkouts, and bankruptcy? And could we each individually attain something reasonably close to this, if we are fighting amongst ourselves, scoping each other out, etc.?

 

[titans10]

Being a Pinnacle Pilot should be an insanity defense.[/QUOTE]

That would apply to any regional.

 

[WayBack]

We all know that you have no self-respect, and that you were molested as a kid, Wayback.

No need to broadcast your lack of self worth to everyone.

HA! Coming from a guy who will take a lousy, insult of a pay raise for better work rules.
Obviously you haven't been around long enough to watch management molest, rape and pillage work rules.

 

[dcfu69]

Murf,

I agree with what your saying... to a degree. If this was a Colgan ONLY contract then it would be fairly good. But its not, its a contract for ALL 3 of the airlines, a JOINT contract and that is how we should look at it. Having said that I think that we could have done better with all three of us at the table negotiating instead of just Colgan. To be honest I am still on the fence about my vote and am open to both sides of the argument. I just feel that our negotiating guys felt pressured to get this thing done ASAP and it shows in some of the areas of the contract. I do not think it is at all a "Industry Leading" contract and I HATE it when alpa guys pound their chest a keep blabbing this stupid term because it is in no way 'industry leading'. Industry average? Sure I'll buy that, just not leading.

 

[CoATP]

Industry Leading but less than average ... sounds like Pinnacle.

 

[Simon Says]

Murf,

I agree with what your saying... to a degree. If this was a Colgan ONLY contract then it would be fairly good. But its not, its a contract for ALL 3 of the airlines, a JOINT contract and that is how we should look at it. Having said that I think that we could have done better with all three of us at the table negotiating instead of just Colgan. To be honest I am still on the fence about my vote and am open to both sides of the argument. I just feel that our negotiating guys felt pressured to get this thing done ASAP and it shows in some of the areas of the contract. I do not think it is at all a "Industry Leading" contract and I HATE it when alpa guys pound their chest a keep blabbing this stupid term because it is in no way 'industry leading'. Industry average? Sure I'll buy that, just not leading.

I am not trying to one up you, or degrade what you are saying. But on the internet, replies can come off poorly.

First, I am assuming that you work for Colgan. Murph and myself has been around for a good 12-13 years apiece. Let me address a few of your points.

If this was a Colgan only contract, it would be an absolutely amazing piece of work for a carrier to negotiate a contract like this for the first time. Your negotiating team would be Gods of tactics if they were to negotiate what this TA holds for your first contract.

ALPA is calling this industry leading because they are comparing this contract in whole to any other regional's contract in whole. So give me another regional's contract in whole that you think beats our TA. Don't pick and choose between all regionals contract to compare with our TA.

And third, if we did not get one list, one contract, Colgan would of been demolished in any sort of intergration with Mesaba for a multiple of reasons. Just like Mesaba guys going over to Pinnacle would of been demolished following the Jets to Pinnacle. I think this fact needs to be weighed in on your decision.

 

[dcfu69]

You bring up valid points about the seniority integration if we were separate. Not being a smarta$$ but how would Colgan guys get 'demolished' in a merger with XJ if it was not a one contract one list situation? I know your pilot group has senior pilots like yourself but would it not be a relative SLI? We are both ALPA carriers. Are you saying it would be DOH or something along those lines?

 

[SEVEN]

You bring up valid points about the seniority integration if we were separate. Not being a smarta$$ but how would Colgan guys get 'demolished' in a merger with XJ if it was not a one contract one list situation? I know your pilot group has senior pilots like yourself but would it not be a relative SLI? We are both ALPA carriers. Are you saying it would be DOH or something along those lines?

This SLI will mot likely go to arbitration. He is the same guy that handled the NWA/DAL list. With that being said, we have a pretty good idea how this will play out from his recent list integration. Using the ALPA merger policy, it will most likely be DOH with some Relative seniority formula blended in. With that, there will be certain fences in place temporarily to protect aircraft seat and position. If ( and most likely when) this formula/list is played out, the Colgan guys/gals will most likely end up very near the bottom of their particular position. Of course this is just my opinion based on the arbitrator's last integration method.

 

[dcfu69]

As long as fences are put in with appropriate terms I don't have that much of a problem with a blended DOH/relative sli. However, from what I have heard from my union reps, there has been no mention of fences... and that bothers me. I think as long as guys can keep their seat there won't be too much of a bloodbath, especially with fences put in place.

What do you think the time frame for the fences will be?? 2-3 yrs? less/more? will be CR9 only or CR9 and Q400? I know at Colgan the average DOH for CA is mid 2005 and FO is 2008 DOH (which will soon be 09-10 DOH with all the upgrades going on here). Like I said before, I am still on the fence with the contract (leaning towards yes) but I am waaay more concerned with how this SLI is going to work out, obviously.

 

[DoinTime]

This SLI will mot likely go to arbitration. He is the same guy that handled the NWA/DAL list. With that being said, we have a pretty good idea how this will play out from his recent list integration. Using the ALPA merger policy, it will most likely be DOH with some Relative seniority formula blended in. With that, there will be certain fences in place temporarily to protect aircraft seat and position. If ( and most likely when) this formula/list is played out, the Colgan guys/gals will most likely end up very near the bottom of their particular position. Of course this is just my opinion based on the arbitrator's last integration method.

This arbitrator was one of three arbitrators on a panel in the NW/DL integration and from what I can tell, the panel's decision was not where near as simple as what you claim. I wouldn't be so quick to claim that any methodology is Bloch's personal prerogative. Furthermore, there was very little deviation from relative seniority through the vast majority of that list.

 

[RJLoser]

The Q will not be fenced. 9E and XJ will pillage it's village!

 

[Simon Says]

The Q will not be fenced. 9E and XJ will pillage it's village!

I disagree. I would bet the Q-400 CA position will be fenced, along with CRJ-900 CA. Although I did like the phrase "pillage its village"

Hey, loser, didn't you guys have preliminary SLI between you and Colgan when Pinnacle bought Colgan a few years back. If so, what were those details?