9E/XJ/9L contract is out

[DoinTime]

Except that in most ways XJT's current concessionary contract is better than the ASA contract! So what does that say about the TA? Sorry, couldn't help it.

Considering that its doubtful that neither one of you has read the PNCL JCBA I'm not sure how you feel qualified to weigh and compare its content.

 

[DoinTime]

It isn't until the last couple years that PNCL catches ASA in rates, which ASA's will soon change, and the rest of the contract still doesn't measure up. So in a sense, Pinnacle didn't even match the bar set over 3 years ago by ASA. Enjoy living with it for 5-8 years!

What are you talking about? The new JCBA captain rates are higher at DOS than all of ASA's 50-seat rates (in some cases almost 10%) and the 76-seat rates are better from years 1-15 with just a slight disadvantage in years 16-20. ASA FO rates are pretty strong but first year pay is abysmal. When you look at the total pay scales over years 1-3 its just about a wash. The JCBA also will get just as much of raise on 12/1/11 as ASA got during the whole term of their last contract. ASA and ExpressJet will need to do very well in their negotiations to keep pace with the new Pinnacle.

 

[Nevets]

Considering that its doubtful that neither one of you has read the PNCL JCBA I'm not sure how you feel qualified to weigh and compare its content.

I read the bullet points.

 

[WTF-Over]

pissing contest anybody?????

 

[xjhawk]

okay as an XJ guy I am voting yes. What good will it do anyone in xj/9E/Colgan to vote it down. Its a good TA with pleanty of great points and its share of points I am not thrilled with but over all, good. As for ASA and their contract. Guess what? I hope the best for them and I hope they can make better on their contract on every one of the gains I feel we have in our TA. Making life at the regionals a lot better place to be. Stop your 3rd grade arguments on who has a bigger .........

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

okay as an XJ guy I am voting yes. What good will it do anyone in xj/9E/Colgan to vote it down. Its a good TA with plenty of great points and its share of points I am not thrilled with but over all, good. As for ASA and their contract. Guess what? I hope the best for them and I hope they can make better on their contract on every one of the gains I feel we have in our TA. Making life at the regionals a lot better place to be. Stop your 3rd grade arguments on who has a bigger .........

I also will vote yes.
I went to the roadshow yesterday and I looked for the points you were unhappy about. Either I am not getting it or it really isn't as bad as you think but I accept your take on RR changes.

Considering the challenges the Negotiating Committee's had with 3 diverse groups with widely differing needs/pay/rules to come this far is a real triumph.

Granted not all areas had gains. Some areas are not forging new ground.
Pay isn't leaping to new levels, but for 3/4 it's a big change, and for the worse abused group the whole agreement is more than they could have gotten on there own.

 

[Raskal]

Can I ask why, and also how do you feel this would benifit anybody if this TA were to get voted down?

Ok, I'll bite. First, I completely understand the difficulties the committee faced when creating this. They're efforts are far from unappreciated.

A contract is just as much a personal decision as it is a group, we all need to decide if the conditions are what we believe to be the best possible.

It appears that speed was more of the priority than much else. Here are the things that simply don't address the issues I think are important:

-The sick policy is, as it always has been, awful. It was not addressed.

-There is not enough protection from extensions/JM. For us at XJ it was not an issue, but 9E has long survived on those practices. A mistake in my eyes.

-The commuter call in honest policy is actually getting worse at a time when commuting is more difficult than ever. That is just idiotic. I'm not a commuter, but who knows what the future brings.

That's just me.

 

[Simon Says]

Ok, I'll bite. First, I completely understand the difficulties the committee faced when creating this. They're efforts are far from unappreciated.

A contract is just as much a personal decision as it is a group, we all need to decide if the conditions are what we believe to be the best possible.

It appears that speed was more of the priority than much else. Here are the things that simply don't address the issues I think are important:

-The sick policy is, as it always has been, awful. It was not addressed.

-There is not enough protection from extensions/JM. For us at XJ it was not an issue, but 9E has long survived on those practices. A mistake in my eyes.

-The commuter call in honest policy is actually getting worse at a time when commuting is more difficult than ever. That is just idiotic. I'm not a commuter, but who knows what the future brings.

That's just me.

OK, what part of the sick policy? Getting a doctors note at the companies discretion? Or sick time accrual of 2.5 hours a month. Careful about the accrual part because their is a reason for this low amount and it leads to one of the best short term disabilities in the industry...including the majors.

Protection of JM and extensions is your choice. For me I will be gladly be JM on a day off for double pay and a comp day off. I personally have no issue with it. I feel it penalizes the company enough and gives them the flexability to use it.

Commuter policy improved from what we have right now. I am a commuter and I use it. Primary and biggest improvement is the fact that we can use any 121 carrier for our commute in.

 

[sinkrate]

Question for Mesaba reserve pilots ---

If you are given a flight assignment on day one of a reserve sequence that returns you to domicile on the morning of day two, what happens the rest of day two? Are you released from all reserve responsiblilty or do you resume the remainder of your original reserve period, if legal for it?

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Question for Mesaba reserve pilots ---

If you are given a flight assignment on day one of a reserve sequence that returns you to domicile on the morning of day two, what happens the rest of day two? Are you released from all reserve responsiblilty or do you resume the remainder of your original reserve period, if legal for it?

Yes.
I didn't know it but we are supposed to call scheduling before we leave the airport (7 years I haven't done it). Go home and finish reserve stretch unless there has been a change (ie change in periods). You still have 90 minutes call out. If you had a 4 day reserve stretch and you were given a 4 day trip that ended 5 hours before the end of the stretch you are still on reserve until the end.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Getting a doctors note at the companies discretion?

Protection of JM and extensions is your choice. For me I will be gladly be JM on a day off for double pay and a comp day off. I personally have no issue with it. I feel it penalizes the company enough and gives them the flexability to use it.

Commuter policy improved from what we have right now. I am a commuter and I use it. Primary and biggest improvement is the fact that we can use any 121 carrier for our commute in.

At the road show it was stated clearly that the company could no longer make blanket demands for Drs notes. The company must look at individual situations to determine whether the note is warranted.

I am also concerned about the extension language but it seems VERY costly for the company to do it. The Pinnacle Pilots I spoke to thought it was a huge improvement.

I am a bit concerned about the commuter policy. With the flights being so full going to a review board after using it twice seems like a getting worse situation. I know people who use CIH a lot.

On the boards someone wrote that the contract was unenforceable because the management only allows so many grievances to arbitration...that is no longer the case.

I was also happy with the explanation about the secondary RR issue. I was uncomfortable with that.

 

[sinkrate]

Yes.
I didn't know it but we are supposed to call scheduling before we leave the airport (7 years I haven't done it). Go home and finish reserve stretch unless there has been a change (ie change in periods). You still have 90 minutes call out. If you had a 4 day reserve stretch and you were given a 4 day trip that ended 5 hours before the end of the stretch you are still on reserve until the end.

Currently PCL pilots are released from all duty if the Company doesn't have another flight assignment for them. This 'return to reserve' was viewed as an unacceptable concession in TA1 by many PCL pilots. Add to that reserve out of domicile, that is not allowed at PCL currently, this JCBA agreement may be viewed as largely concessionary on reserve rules by PCL pilots.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Currently PCL pilots are released from all duty if the Company doesn't have another flight assignment for them. This 'return to reserve' was viewed as an unacceptable concession in TA1 by many PCL pilots. Add to that reserve out of domicile, that is not allowed at PCL currently, this JCBA agreement may be viewed as largely concessionary on reserve rules by PCL pilots.

With the thought of learning and NOT attacking you...

It is concessionary to 9e pilots to accept a contract where a reserve pilot who is on reserve for 5 days, he gets a 3 day trip on the 2nd day, and he has to finish his 5th reserve day?

Realize I am the stupid one here. I am just not understanding what you wrote.

 

[sinkrate]

With the thought of learning and NOT attacking you...

It is concessionary to 9e pilots to accept a contract where a reserve pilot who is on reserve for 5 days, he gets a 3 day trip on the 2nd day, and he has to finish his 5th reserve day?

Realize I am the stupid one here. I am just not understanding what you wrote.

That is not quite it. It is a calendar day deal. A reserve has home reserve on all five days of a sequence. Lets say 8am to 8pm. On day one he operates a legal rest overnight. On day two he operates one leg in and finishes in domicile at 9am. He hangs out for an hour, if scheduling has not assigned him any additional flights by 10am he is released from all duty for the remainder of the day. He then resumes his 'on call' period on day three. This is the current PCL rules. Since most of the reserve pilots live in domicile it is a big deal to them. That plus no 'out of domicile reserve' creates a lot of family time for the reserve group. They can be given trips out of domicile but as soon as the trip is finished they must be given a dead head home.

The JCBA reserve language does not have the PCL language that covers this. It appears to be mostly Mesaba's current book. Which led to my question - how would this guy be treated under Mesaba's current book? If your reserve pilots are mostly commuters it won't be as important.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

OK, Thank You. I understand.
I wish we had that aspect of reserve rules too. But you're right it appears that they did take the Mesaba language. The difference is that on the last day of reserve you get released a few hours earlier.

I am not sure why that wasn't saved but it is a valid issue for the road show. I did not get the impression that aspect of the 9e contract was saved.

 

[RJLoser]

Graab... What's the deal with the secondary RR that was explained?

 

[CptMurf]

That is not quite it. It is a calendar day deal. A reserve has home reserve on all five days of a sequence. Lets say 8am to 8pm. On day one he operates a legal rest overnight. On day two he operates one leg in and finishes in domicile at 9am. He hangs out for an hour, if scheduling has not assigned him any additional flights by 10am he is released from all duty for the remainder of the day. He then resumes his 'on call' period on day three. This is the current PCL rules. Since most of the reserve pilots live in domicile it is a big deal to them. That plus no 'out of domicile reserve' creates a lot of family time for the reserve group. They can be given trips out of domicile but as soon as the trip is finished they must be given a dead head home.

The JCBA reserve language does not have the PCL language that covers this. It appears to be mostly Mesaba's current book. Which led to my question - how would this guy be treated under Mesaba's current book? If your reserve pilots are mostly commuters it won't be as important.

At XJ he would call after returning to domicile. If they had no assignments, he would go home subject to 1 1/2 hour call out, and time to prepare for the flight (mainly viewed as 1 hour as a normal show time). In other words, it would cost them another 3 hours of duty to call this individual back in, and that's not counting the block of any flying.

 

[altimaklr]

The hotel section is definitely inferior to ASA's contract.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Graab... What's the deal with the secondary RR that was explained?

I am not sure that I remember all the details but I'll try.

Let's say a person is on RR from 5am to 1pm. That person is called out at 9am. Scheduling calls you at 901 and you arrive at the airport at 11am for RR. You started with R1 at 5am.

Part of the rules associated with Secondary RR is your limited to 10 hrs of duty. Plus you get per Diem and you get paid 5 hours. Now the benefit is the 10 hours starts at the beginning of your reserve assignment which is 5am. 10 hrs of duty ends at 3pm. Meaning your only at the airport in this example for 4 hrs.

This is how if I understood the explanation

 

[xjhawk]

plus one hour of pay on top of 75 is what I got out of the explaination at recurrent. I wish I went to the road show but had family stuff to attend to. From what I hear from a couple of people who went they think it is a very good deal. My only "beef" is the reserve rules. I understand this was not section 6 negotiations so I was not expecting anything that was leaps and bounds above our current book so I am willing to look past this. Not to mention that with what I suspect to be looming on the back side of this contract is coming I do not think too many people will be on reserve long. Growth at Delta means regional growth in the coming years, continental is also a possibiltiy, not to mention the movement from people going to the majors.