9E/XJ/9L contract is out

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Getting a doctors note at the companies discretion?

Protection of JM and extensions is your choice. For me I will be gladly be JM on a day off for double pay and a comp day off. I personally have no issue with it. I feel it penalizes the company enough and gives them the flexability to use it.

Commuter policy improved from what we have right now. I am a commuter and I use it. Primary and biggest improvement is the fact that we can use any 121 carrier for our commute in.

At the road show it was stated clearly that the company could no longer make blanket demands for Drs notes. The company must look at individual situations to determine whether the note is warranted.

I am also concerned about the extension language but it seems VERY costly for the company to do it. The Pinnacle Pilots I spoke to thought it was a huge improvement.

I am a bit concerned about the commuter policy. With the flights being so full going to a review board after using it twice seems like a getting worse situation. I know people who use CIH a lot.

On the boards someone wrote that the contract was unenforceable because the management only allows so many grievances to arbitration...that is no longer the case.

I was also happy with the explanation about the secondary RR issue. I was uncomfortable with that.

 

[sinkrate]

Yes.
I didn't know it but we are supposed to call scheduling before we leave the airport (7 years I haven't done it). Go home and finish reserve stretch unless there has been a change (ie change in periods). You still have 90 minutes call out. If you had a 4 day reserve stretch and you were given a 4 day trip that ended 5 hours before the end of the stretch you are still on reserve until the end.

Currently PCL pilots are released from all duty if the Company doesn't have another flight assignment for them. This 'return to reserve' was viewed as an unacceptable concession in TA1 by many PCL pilots. Add to that reserve out of domicile, that is not allowed at PCL currently, this JCBA agreement may be viewed as largely concessionary on reserve rules by PCL pilots.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Currently PCL pilots are released from all duty if the Company doesn't have another flight assignment for them. This 'return to reserve' was viewed as an unacceptable concession in TA1 by many PCL pilots. Add to that reserve out of domicile, that is not allowed at PCL currently, this JCBA agreement may be viewed as largely concessionary on reserve rules by PCL pilots.

With the thought of learning and NOT attacking you...

It is concessionary to 9e pilots to accept a contract where a reserve pilot who is on reserve for 5 days, he gets a 3 day trip on the 2nd day, and he has to finish his 5th reserve day?

Realize I am the stupid one here. I am just not understanding what you wrote.

 

[sinkrate]

With the thought of learning and NOT attacking you...

It is concessionary to 9e pilots to accept a contract where a reserve pilot who is on reserve for 5 days, he gets a 3 day trip on the 2nd day, and he has to finish his 5th reserve day?

Realize I am the stupid one here. I am just not understanding what you wrote.

That is not quite it. It is a calendar day deal. A reserve has home reserve on all five days of a sequence. Lets say 8am to 8pm. On day one he operates a legal rest overnight. On day two he operates one leg in and finishes in domicile at 9am. He hangs out for an hour, if scheduling has not assigned him any additional flights by 10am he is released from all duty for the remainder of the day. He then resumes his 'on call' period on day three. This is the current PCL rules. Since most of the reserve pilots live in domicile it is a big deal to them. That plus no 'out of domicile reserve' creates a lot of family time for the reserve group. They can be given trips out of domicile but as soon as the trip is finished they must be given a dead head home.

The JCBA reserve language does not have the PCL language that covers this. It appears to be mostly Mesaba's current book. Which led to my question - how would this guy be treated under Mesaba's current book? If your reserve pilots are mostly commuters it won't be as important.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

OK, Thank You. I understand.
I wish we had that aspect of reserve rules too. But you're right it appears that they did take the Mesaba language. The difference is that on the last day of reserve you get released a few hours earlier.

I am not sure why that wasn't saved but it is a valid issue for the road show. I did not get the impression that aspect of the 9e contract was saved.

 

[RJLoser]

Graab... What's the deal with the secondary RR that was explained?

 

[CptMurf]

That is not quite it. It is a calendar day deal. A reserve has home reserve on all five days of a sequence. Lets say 8am to 8pm. On day one he operates a legal rest overnight. On day two he operates one leg in and finishes in domicile at 9am. He hangs out for an hour, if scheduling has not assigned him any additional flights by 10am he is released from all duty for the remainder of the day. He then resumes his 'on call' period on day three. This is the current PCL rules. Since most of the reserve pilots live in domicile it is a big deal to them. That plus no 'out of domicile reserve' creates a lot of family time for the reserve group. They can be given trips out of domicile but as soon as the trip is finished they must be given a dead head home.

The JCBA reserve language does not have the PCL language that covers this. It appears to be mostly Mesaba's current book. Which led to my question - how would this guy be treated under Mesaba's current book? If your reserve pilots are mostly commuters it won't be as important.

At XJ he would call after returning to domicile. If they had no assignments, he would go home subject to 1 1/2 hour call out, and time to prepare for the flight (mainly viewed as 1 hour as a normal show time). In other words, it would cost them another 3 hours of duty to call this individual back in, and that's not counting the block of any flying.

 

[altimaklr]

The hotel section is definitely inferior to ASA's contract.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Graab... What's the deal with the secondary RR that was explained?

I am not sure that I remember all the details but I'll try.

Let's say a person is on RR from 5am to 1pm. That person is called out at 9am. Scheduling calls you at 901 and you arrive at the airport at 11am for RR. You started with R1 at 5am.

Part of the rules associated with Secondary RR is your limited to 10 hrs of duty. Plus you get per Diem and you get paid 5 hours. Now the benefit is the 10 hours starts at the beginning of your reserve assignment which is 5am. 10 hrs of duty ends at 3pm. Meaning your only at the airport in this example for 4 hrs.

This is how if I understood the explanation

 

[xjhawk]

plus one hour of pay on top of 75 is what I got out of the explaination at recurrent. I wish I went to the road show but had family stuff to attend to. From what I hear from a couple of people who went they think it is a very good deal. My only "beef" is the reserve rules. I understand this was not section 6 negotiations so I was not expecting anything that was leaps and bounds above our current book so I am willing to look past this. Not to mention that with what I suspect to be looming on the back side of this contract is coming I do not think too many people will be on reserve long. Growth at Delta means regional growth in the coming years, continental is also a possibiltiy, not to mention the movement from people going to the majors.

 

[CptMurf]

The hotel section is definitely inferior to ASA's contract.

That's nice.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

The hotel section is definitely inferior to ASA's contract.

I fly day trips.

 

[XJohXJ]

The hotel section is definitely inferior to ASA's contract.

Bully for you!

 

[Smarta$$]

That's nice.

Hotel language was a big deal for many of us. Don't be so dismissive of others valid priorities. You might be concerned to if you stay in some of the dumps we have had to stay.

 

[CptMurf]

Hotel language was a big deal for many of us. Don't be so dismissive of others valid priorities. You might be concerned to if you stay in some of the dumps we have had to stay.

I was not trying to be dismissive of any 9E/9L/XJ priorities, I was just dismissing the ASA types that are saying this is a bad deal, or injecting that their contract is better in any way. I'm sure some sections might be, but others definately are not.

Oh, and I've had my share of the "Arcadian", "Red Fox", "Levering", types of hotels over the years. Heck, I've even survived overnights in Benton Harbor. Hotels are important, but I wouldn't give up too much contractually for them. We can fight those battles individually, outside of negotiations.

 

[altimaklr]

We'll see what you say when the new rest rules take effect and you start having more long layovers at the Ramada/Days Inn/HoJo

 

[JetMonkey]

Ok, you asked for it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZjAantupsA&ob=av2el

I'm so sorry.

Not bad! I saw these guys back in 86'. One of the best concerts ever..

 

[CptMurf]

We'll see what you say when the new rest rules take effect and you start having more long layovers at the Ramada/Days Inn/HoJo

I'll take a Days Inn/Ramada any day of the week over this place.
http://www.pasty.com/arcadian/
And yes, I have done a long overnight there.

 

[Top Gum]

Many areas are better but it’s NOT “industry leading” like the union wants us to believe.

For 9e the vacation is worse. The commuter policy was very bad and it didn’t get any better. If you’re bought for OE welcome to reserve and for commuters that means hotel rooms not being covered. Check-in is one hour prior whereas it was 45 min before. Insurance is worse for 9e. Now a $900 family deductible and the family premium doubled up to $300. The displacement language is worse and the company is currently displacing 150 pilots out of their bases.

I’m still reading into this but from the looks of it I will be voting no again. QOL is worse and I don’t want to be displaced with out the ability to commute.

 

[RJLoser]

Sounds like vac slide does not have to cover un-cover entire trip

 

[Raskal]

Many areas are better but it’s NOT “industry leading” like the union wants us to believe.

For 9e the vacation is worse. The commuter policy was very bad and it didn’t get any better. If you’re bought for OE welcome to reserve and for commuters that means hotel rooms not being covered. Check-in is one hour prior whereas it was 45 min before. Insurance is worse for 9e. Now a $900 family deductible and the family premium doubled up to $300. The displacement language is worse and the company is currently displacing 150 pilots out of their bases.

I’m still reading into this but from the looks of it I will be voting no again. QOL is worse and I don’t want to be displaced with out the ability to commute.

The displacement and commuting language are a priority for me also for the simple reason that there is a ton of possibility for both down the road. I understand about the insurance, even though I don't use ours (thankfully the wife has access to much more "normal people" insurance) and looking at it feel sorry for anyone who does, even post-contract.

I will be attending a road show, but so far just don't see it.

 

[Flyprdu]

I'll take a Days Inn/Ramada any day of the week over this place.
http://www.pasty.com/arcadian/
And yes, I have done a long overnight there.

This man does not speak for me!
Time to raise your standards, bucko.

 

[CptMurf]

This man does not speak for me!
Time to raise your standards, bucko.

So what your saying, is you advocate using negotiation capital to stay in high dollar hotels. In other words, you would trade $ on the hour, to stay in the Four Points, or trade min day to stay in the InterContinental. I don't advocate this at all. All I want is a clean, quiet, and safe room. Food in walking distance, and a free breakfast a plus. I do not need to stay at a Westin to make me feel like the job is bearable. I may have a big ego, but it's not that big. I'll take the LaQuinta please.

 

[WayBack]

Can I ask why, and also how do you feel this would benifit anybody if this TA were to get voted down?

Probably because the Union has boasted how great, powerful and resourceful they are and he's holding them accountable.
I agree, send it back and come back with something better. That's what your dues pay for, them to go fetch you the BEST possible contract. Not some "ok in some areas, worse in others" type of contract.
Maybe if people didn't settle at the first pile of heaping steam thrown at them, the regional industry would be better off.

79 you always have to worry about Jerry giving all your planes to his golden child and non union skyw.

Doesn't Delta control where those airplanes go? Isn't ASA Wholly Owned? Sorry if I'm wrong.

Or do we have protection in our current contract against that?

All regionals have "Protection" on their airplanes. Just ask the Comair guys, Delta showed them how much that protection clause really helped.

At the road show it was stated clearly that the company could no longer make blanket demands for Drs notes. The company must look at individual situations to determine whether the note is warranted.

Spoke with a fed about a year ago, of course he was on the jumpseat. The FAA is really cracking down on companies telling pilots they need doctors notes. They see it as the company forcing the pilot to fly sick...not his words exactly, but just the point he made.
I've heard some management types are now telling pilots who call in sick that they need FMLA paperwork filled out. It's not really a doctors note, plus they can document it a little better....in light of the Colgan BUF accident.

I am also concerned about the extension language but it seems VERY costly for the company to do it. The Pinnacle Pilots I spoke to thought it was a huge improvement.

So what if it's costly, have you ever seen airline management make a call based on "sense"? .[/QUOTE]

I'll take a Days Inn/Ramada any day of the week over this place.
http://www.pasty.com/arcadian/
And yes, I have done a long overnight there.

Dude, one of the "things to do" is Rock Hunting...what are you complaining about?

Many areas are better but it’s NOT “industry leading” like the union wants us to believe.

I love when ALPA uses "industry leading" to make themselves better.
Industry Leading compared to what? Mesa?

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

If you don't like it, vote no. Democracy in action.

 

[SEVEN]

If you don't like it, vote no. Democracy in action.

Still doesn't matter. It's gonna pass either way. Just like Ron Paul....doesn't matter how many votes....it's either gonna be an R or D.

 

[GRAAB HIRBOUBI]

Still doesn't matter. It's gonna pass either way. Just like Ron Paul....doesn't matter how many votes....it's either gonna be an R or D.

Honestly, I wasn't being flippant or anything disrespectful. If you feel strongly gather like minded people and start a 'no' campaign. Whether we agree or not I respect your decision.

Been married too long to get too bent up about disagreement. Heck, state your case and I may join you.

 

[altimaklr]

So what your saying, is you advocate using negotiation capital to stay in high dollar hotels. In other words, you would trade $ on the hour, to stay in the Four Points, or trade min day to stay in the InterContinental. I don't advocate this at all. All I want is a clean, quiet, and safe room. Food in walking distance, and a free breakfast a plus. I do not need to stay at a Westin to make me feel like the job is bearable. I may have a big ego, but it's not that big. I'll take the LaQuinta please.

You'll fit right in with the 9E lifers and ghetto FA's with that mentality. Let me guess, you're on of those people who pack a cooler big enough to go on a month long African safari and still steal fruit and bagels from the breakfast buffet to eat all day long? Why is it that other pilots at successful regionals, much less any other traveling professional can afford to stay at a normal hotel but we can't?

 

[CptMurf]

You'll fit right in with the 9E lifers and ghetto FA's with that mentality. Let me guess, you're on of those people who pack a cooler big enough to go on a month long African safari and still steal fruit and bagels from the breakfast buffet to eat all day long? Why is it that other pilots at successful regionals, much less any other traveling professional can afford to stay at a normal hotel but we can't?

Actually, I don't bring a cooler, I budget about $20 a day for food, I also buy the crew coffee or cookies sometime during the trip, and buy the first round at the bar. I guess I'm not as uppity about myself as you. It doesn't take staying at the Ritz to my me feel successful in my career.

 

[Flyprdu]

Actually, I don't bring a cooler, I budget about $20 a day for food, I also buy the crew coffee or cookies sometime during the trip, and buy the first round at the bar. I guess I'm not as uppity about myself as you. It doesn't take staying at the Ritz to my me feel successful in my career.

I'm gonna need your phone number. So when the next time I'm in a sh*thole, looking at static on the television because the cable only works for 3 channels, I can call you?

Because I'm gunna need some reassurance about feeling successful in my career...

Enjoy that extra dollar an hour when you're sitting in your LaQuinta with nothing around it for 19 hours.