737 PFT: Set Me Straight

[Vik]

SWA requiring a 737 type is not PFT.

Polar Air is looking for FOs and their ad says, "747 type preferred" or something to that effect. They might as well say required because thats what is going to get you the job.

SWA is not PFT because you are not guaranteed an interview by buying a type rating. When you PFT w/ NW Airlink for example, your check guarantees you an interview (and most likely a seat for training).

SWA also doesn't tell you to go buy a type. They require one.

So if UAL says they require a 4 year degree, does that make them PFT because you might have to BUY a degree?

 

[BigFlyr]

BigFlyr,

Explain to me how it saves them "$$$" on the checkride.

Please elaborate on the cost break down if you will. I don't see how it saves them that much. My opinion is that it's a weeding out process and shows them just how much your desire is to work for them.

Ok...Now I'm not an Airline Manager or CFO or anything like that. If I were I wouldn't be wasting my time on this forum. I may be wrong but I would think that if SWA can spare the simulator session required for the 737 type rating then they are saving money whether they own the sims or or not. Not only do they save on the session but they save on paying the instructor and the guy that would be flying support. Multiply that times the number of captain upgrades at SWA in a year and it probably adds up to a subtantial amount of $$$!

As for the weeding-out process is concerned... Give me a break! The 737 type is probably the easiest one, IMHO, that you can buy(didn't buy mine and proud of it).

Years ago, the "real airlines" didn't require ATPs and Type Ratings because their pilots would get them as they upgraded to Captain. It was all in the cost of doing business.

All that said, I think SWA is a great airline and has set the standard for efficiency. The "real airlines" (and you know who you are) will have to restructure to compete.

 

[dogg]

I have a question for all of you in the know? In the heyday of Flight Safety's Bridge programs, if you went through one and spent your 12,000.00 and got your interview and were not hired, would you have been more competitive at a non bridge airline(assuming you did the brasilia training which I believe was the bulk of the bridge programs)? In other words if Co-Ex or ComAir did not hire you, do you think that you would have had a leg up at SkyWest?
Suppose instead of the program being tailored to a specific carrier, it was simply a EMB-120 or a SF-340 type rating program with generic 121 profiles. And in order to be hired at SkyWest or ASA or Express Airlines 1 you had to have a type. What would we have called it back then....hmm........

 

[jetdriven]

in the book "nuts" it explains how SWa wants pilots to have an investment in their career at SWA. If an applicant was to spend 10 grand to get an interview then they were commited. This is in addition to the lower insurance, etc. Greatest carrier in the world guys.

 

[Vik]

As if all the sweat, blood, tears, poor wages, horrible employers and tens of thousands of dollars in flight training weren't an investment into the career to that point.

If someone tells me they want me to spend $10k to show that I am committed to my career, I'd beat the daylights out of them.

 

[mar]

You said it brother

Vik--I don't think I could've said it better. You have quite an enlightened perspective for a relative new-comer to this twisted industry.

Dogg--With all due respect my friend I don't think I get your drift. Would you mind explaining your position a little more for those of us that are up too late and may have indulged a little too much.

Peace all

 

[Saabslime]

Unlike true PFT programs, (Gulfstream, Pinnacle, etc.) SWA doesn't see a dime from you buying a 737 type so it's not profit motivated in any way. They couldn't care less how you get typed. Like others have said it's simply a job requirement if you want to work there.

 

[asacap]

I guess you could spin the PFT issue both ways quite easily. It seems to come down to wether or not you want to work there. If you do, then it's not PFT. If you don't, then it is. Bottom line is - you can't get the job if you don't pay. That's a fact. Go ahead and continue spinning.

 

[RJones]

What is Pay for Training? Well it's just what it says...that you are willing to provide personal credit for the training costs that are required by the FAA, either in advance/up front, or as in most cases you sign a contract that binds you to pay should you elect to leave prior to the date ending that contract.

The idea of Pay for Training is to eliminate turnover. What upsets everyone with this issue is that the FAA requires initial training and what are you going to do with that companies training should you leave, but yet you've paid for that training...or at least signed a contract that says you will should you leave. If you go to work for company A and they fly MD-80's, you quit and go to work for company Z that also flies MD-80's, are you going to get a pass on initial training? I think not, you have to go through it all over again. So it's not a marketable investment for anyone who does it.

Like the rest of you I don't like to see this stuff. Your strength is in what you bring to the table in the form of work you can provide to any company, not to provide credit for training. You have to think of yourself as a product your selling and stay away from buying yourself a job.

Let's take a look at Southwest and the 737-type rating requirement for employment. A few here feel it's a PFT, but I beg to differ. It's a requirement for employment just like the ATP is. Some commuters used to advertise commercial with ATP written, I haven't seen that in a while.

Requiring a type rating for a job is not new, most corporate and 135 charter outfits require them as well. Of the type ratings you see to the left one was purchased for me (CE500), this after six months on the job, one I studied on my own and took the plane to the FAA (CE650), and one I paid for as a pre-employment job requirement (B-737). The nice thing about these type ratings is that they are mine, you can't have them, I didn't sign any contracts binding me down, I am free go to another employer if I wish.

My point here, PFT (I regret to say I signed one but was able to get out of it, will never do that again) is not an investment...it's quicksand, why do it when you can't take the training to another company. The type, it's yours and nobody but the FAA can take it away from you...quite a distinction I think!

RJ

 

[asacap]

Hey RJONES,

Just a quick question, did you buy a 737 type? Please, just yes or no, no spin. Thanks.

 

[RJones]

yes

 

[Timebuilder]

for asacap

You might have missed this, above. I think it lacks any kind of spin:

PFT:

1) You pay money to a specific carrier in order to fly for that specific carrier.

2) You take a position in return for that money which would normally be filled by a paid, competant pilot, who is paid a wage as a cost of doing business, not from the money he paid in.

If I pay money to say, Gulfstream Academy, and take an FO position based on the money I just paid to said company, that would be PFT.

If I train for a type rating and take a checkride, I have armed myself with advanced training that is portable, good at any carrier. I will not be paid out of an account that I have just paid into, and I have not purchased the right to act as a required crewmember.

Wouldn't you say that these are factual differences?

 

[asacap]

RJONES,

Thanks for your reply and for your honesty. I wish there was no need to pay for training, but thats just the way it is sometimes. I would buy the 737 type also for a job at southwest also.

TIMEBUILDER

However, it is still PAYING money, to receive TRAINING on a Boeing 737 type in order to increase your chances of GETTING THE JOB. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. I believe you are still spinning the issue. It seems that you are drawing lines of distinction to make yourself look better than those who paid for a different type of PFT. Refer back to the first line of my response to you.

 

[Timebuilder]

tag, you're "it"

I PAID MONEY to get my multiengine TRAINING so I could get a JOB.

Does that make that PFT?

 

[TurboS7]

We are not hiring where I work at the present time. If we were here is the way it would work for the 737-800. If we had two compatable people they would have 6500TT, both military, either Navy or AirForce, and 4 year degrees. If one had a 737 and the other did not we all things even we would hire the one with the type. In most cases since we would be hiring more than one we would hire them both, the military being the next important issue, next the degree, then next previous 121 or 135jet experience.Nowadays it is impossible to get hired as we have ex-USair, United , and even American 737 guys current and qualified banging on the door begging for a job. It is tough out there and when UAL goes Chapter 11(they have already notifed United Express that they are going to do it) there will be a bunch more.