737 PFT: Set Me Straight

[bobbysamd]

Another blow struck on the dead horse

Perhaps people are so up in arms about Southwest requiring the 737 type because it is an "airline."

At the risk of repeating someone else's thought, maybe it's all in the way you view it. Corporate generally requires its pilots to have the type and no one grumbles much about that. In fact, some people buy Lear, Citation, Beechjet types, etc. to qualify for these jobs. Moreover, many furloughees and other out-of-work pilots have applied for WIA benies to help pay for type ratings to get jobs. No one has griped about that; in fact, that has been encouraged because Uncle Sam wants people to use this program. So, how is it so much different that Southwest requires its new-hires to have the type? That's another analysis I would apply to determine if a 737 type is P-F-T for Southwest.

Once again, if the preferred vendor for 737 training were Southwest or a vendor it uses, that would come dangerously close to the definition of P-F-T. But, Southwest, to my knowledge, doesn't sell 737 types and doesn't care where you get yours as long as you have it.

 

[tredding@swa]

Amen Brother Jones!!

Pass the Kool-Aid, I need another hit off of that puppy.....

 

[enigma]

The definition of PFT is easy, whether or not SWA makes money from their 73 type requirement is a little harder.

To address the original question. I don't really know the origination of the requirement. I think that the monetary benefit to hiring only typed pilots is obvious, especially when you consider that the requirement was most likely implemented back when SWA was growing at a pace that really did necessitate the hiring of "soon to be" Captains. In todays environment, I doubt that SWA gains any immediately measurable profit from the requirement. As others have noted, SWA doesn't necessarily make any money from the requirement (because they don't care where you got it). From that, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that SWA doesn't count on the income and therefore has no profit motive. Matter if fact, in the recent past, SWA wouldn't sell you a type because their sims were so busy with their own training, that they didn't have any slots to sell.
My sources tell me that an SWA newhire gets the exactly the training that is required to produce a pilot who is up to SWA standards. In other words, SWA potentially spends more time on newhire training than some other airlines, not less. This is because they are willing to invest in a person who has proven to them that he/she has the personality/emotional maturity/desire to succeed as a SWA employee.

As for, PFT. I spent months refusing to use the term. I think "PFT" is a term coined by management and FSI specifically to confuse the issue. I prefer to call it PFJ, aka PayForJob. Hmmmm, maybe I'll go back to being the windmill tilter.

PFT is easy to define and it simply is: any flying job that requires a newhire to pay for the training that the certificate holder is legally obligated to provide to all newhired pilots. Quite simply put, the employer hires a PFJ'r because the PFJ'r is subsidizing the costs of initial training. (alternate definition: any pilot job that considers a newhires willingness to pay for that job, as a superior qualification to the newhires ability to actually do the job; and of course, demands such payment before the job offer.)

BTW, SWA is not PFJ, (nor PFT whatever its definition) , because the newhire is not required to subsidize his intial training.

What frustrates me about the PFJ argument, is this: The employer would pay for the training, if only we pilots had the cajones to demand respect for our skills. PFJ, reinforces managements perception that pilots are a bunch of prostitutes who will stab anyone in the back for personal gain.
No wonder they try and whipsaw us, IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!

frustratedly,
8N

BTW, I paid for my own 737 type rating. I did not get hired by SWA. I did get hired by other carriers and I can testify that having obtained the type was beneficial to convincing the interviewers that I could succeed in a competitive/cost driven, training program. In other words, the rating is on my certificate and I can refer to it. It has value outside of SWA. Unlike the newhire training that a Comair/ASA/GLA, etc newhire paid for.

 

[mar]

A response just for Timebuilder

Does engineering count?

As a matter of fact I'm a flight engineer right now. I never bothered to update my profile.

I wonder what makes you ask if I'm flying right now? Do I know you?

I don't mind the question, just curious how you might have known that I was recently "between jobs", as they say.

 

[Typhoon1244]

If ASA was PFT, then Southwest is PF-some-T. They wouldn't have made the type a requirement if it didn't save them something.

I don't think the term "PFJ" is accurate either. If the job had a built-in time limit (a la Gulfstream), then that would be PFJ. If I had to write a check every ___ years to keep my job, that would be PFJ. I would suggest that the fact that ASA is now paying back all that PFT money (however slowly) reduces the issue to the status of a "training contract."

It still boggles my mind that there are people out there who feel like the airlines "owed" them a job because they "paid their dues." I wish life was that fair. I didn't want to fly for ASA...not originally...I wanted to be part of another EAL father-and-son story. Frank Lorenzo and a whole bunch of scabs fixed that for me.

Either nobody knows the answer to my question or nobody wants to answer it: do the FAR's allow Southwest to shorten or accelerate its training syllabus because its newhires already have a 737 type rating? That was the original point of this thread...and it shouldn't be that hard a question to answer. Yes or no? Good lord, we could have finished this with one post instead of three pages if somebody would just answer that!

 

[46Driver]

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.
Trying to measure "respect" by the amount of money you make is useless. If that was the case then the entire military is disrespected (i.e., its a little more difficult to fly off of a ship than a 10,000 runway; its rather more dangerous dodging AAA over Iraq than your biggest worry being a covey of pigeons crossing centerline....) Same applies to all of the professions; being a policeman or fireman carries much greater responsibility than being a NBA player, but who makes the money? I doubt if "respect" is even a fleeting thought in a manager's mind - its simply supply, demand, and how do I improve my company's bottom line.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.

 

[Timebuilder]

Mar- you have a PM inbound.

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.

So true. If I pay for a 737 type, and don't go to Southwest then someone else will gain something by hiring me. To use an example that applies to me, when I equip myself with a LR-JET type rating, the Lear operator that hires me will benefit.

The difference to our discussion is this: types can go anywhere. PFT money used to buy a job can't.

(DR. Mc Coy, looking down at the horse) "He's dead, Jim."

 

[tdvalve]

For Typhoon1244:

You asked earlier "Does anybody remember my original question? Does Southwest gain any financial advantage by requiring a type rating when you come in the door? Yes or no? "

The answer is no. SWA hires FO's, not Captains, and there is no regulatory requirement for a FO to be type rated. Further, new-hire training is by regulation the same for all. (With some reductions possible for new-hires with significant Part 121 experience in the same airplane type with another carrier.) Since the vast majority of type rated new hires have exactly zero B-737 time, I doubt very much if the FAA or the insurance companies are much impressed.

When a FO is upgraded, he/she will get the exact same training and checkride whether or not he/she is type rated. The only difference is that a Fed or DE gives the ride if a type rating is required. I'm sure SWA has a reason for wanting applicants to hold B-737 type ratings, but it isn't to save a buck on training.

 

[w8n4swa]

RJones,

Good post earlier on defining PFT....crystal clear!

Also, many SWA pilots did NOT buy their type rating. Many had their rating by flying for another 737 carrier....someone earlier mentioned this about Vanguard. You have a choice....get your type rating with another airline to meet the swa requirements or get it yourself....either way works fine.