737 PFT: Set Me Straight

[MetroSheriff]

The infamous PFT debate...ever heard of it.


Uhhh....yessir. That horse done died, but he sure is still stinkin' up the joint.


Folks, please, for the love o' Pete, let it go.

A less contentious discussion would be nice.

How 'bout ProLife vs. ProChoice.

How 'bout religion.

Anyone, anyone. Can we pick a new topic, pleeeeease???

 

[asacap]

Timebuilder,

I respect your opinion but I still disagree with you. The only difference I can see is that typical PFT is on a brasilia or jetstream, and southwest is a Boeing 737. Southwest is a great company with 737's and the people that critisized and condemned previous PFT are now trying very hard to draw lines of distinction so they can be in a different (better) category. They are trying to justify southwest PFT. It is PFT. There are people very qualified to fly for southwest but are not willing to buy the 737 type. By your definition, people that are applying there are cutting in line.

EagleRJ,

The pilot community knows where there loyalty lies. What the hell are you talking about. What loyalty? Who the hell do you think you are you arrogant judgemental schmuck. Where you work has a lot to do with luck. Don't claim luck as a rare and unique skill.

 

[Typhoon1244]

That horse done died, but he sure is still stinkin' up the joint. Folks, please, for the love o' Pete, let it go.

Well, I'm fairly new to this board...wanted to make sure I got my share.

A less contentious discussion would be nice. How 'bout ProLife vs. ProChoice. How 'bout religion. Anyone, anyone. Can we pick a new topic, pleeeeease???

Well, okay. I'll start: I think all aborted fetuses should be sacrificed to Lucifer. Who wants to fight about it?

(Take that look off your face! I'm just kidding!)

 

[mar]

I'm on a mission from god

You see? This is the problem with the whole PFT discussion.

People get crazy.

It's really quite simple. If you pay a company for their training that's required by Federal Aviation Regulation then that's PFT.

That's it.

It's really simple.

PFT is nothing less; nothing more.

I've been checking into this (and other) boards for probably four years. People always use hyperbole in the worst form to justify whatever weak point they're trying to make.

Just stick to the point: Did you pay your employer for your Initial New Hire training? If so, then that's PFT.

A 737 type is *NOT* PFT.

I will forever correct this misconception because I'm on a mission from god--and I have nothing better to do.

Keep it simple, ok?

 

[Timebuilder]

asacap

There are people very qualified to fly for southwest but are not willing to buy the 737 type. By your definition, people that are applying there are cutting in line.

If you are talking about my definition of PFT, that isn't correct. In order for a qualified person to be in line at SWA, thay have to have a type, either brand new and never used, or an old type from their old flying job (Vangard?). In either case, the money for the type doesn't go to SWA, ergo, it is not PFT.

Fortunately, this is still a free country, and we can agree to disagree. At the very least, we have made clear our beliefs on this contentious issue.

And, yes, I did have the money. No, a PFT operator did not get my money.

Are you flying these days, mar?

 

[MetroSheriff]

Timebuilder,

They are trying to justify southwest PFT. It is PFT. There are people very qualified to fly for southwest but are not willing to buy the 737 type. By your definition, people that are applying there are cutting in line.

Hey ASACAP,

If they don't have the type, they are NOT qualified for employment at SWA. You can go to their website ( http://www.iflyswa.com/careers/pilots.html ) if you are having trouble understanding their requirements. You can't cut in front of someone who doesn't meet those requirements. You either meet them or you don't. Define those criteria as you wish.

 

[csmith]

Hey ASACAP,

If they don't have the type, they are NOT qualified for employment at SWA. You can go to their website ( http://www.iflyswa.com/careers/pilots.html ) if you are having trouble understanding their requirements. You can't cut in front of someone who doesn't meet those requirements. You either meet them or you don't. Define those criteria as you wish.

Actually now they will put in the pool without the type, have you notify them when you get the type, and then activate you for a class date. They do this because they get a break in insurance with a 737 typed pilot. They do not charge you for the FAA mandated initial training which every pilot must go through at every carrier. Other carriers have charged for this training.

C

 

[MetroSheriff]

Actually now they will put in the pool without the type, have you notify them when you get the type, and then activate you for a class date. They do this because they get a break in insurance with a 737 typed pilot. They do not charge you for the FAA mandated initial training which every pilot must go through at every carrier. Other carriers have charged for this training.

C

Csmith,

Correct. You can be interviewed, and receive a "conditional" offer of employment. I was just trying to explain to ASACAP that without it you a NOT qualified for EMPLOYMENT. Poolies are not employees. As such, folks with the type are not cutting in front of those with out it. By definition, those without the type do not meet the "qualifications for employment. That is all.

For whatever his reason or rationale, he is just trying to tell us that SWA is the apple to Gulftream's orange.

As MOST folks know (or will admit)...that dog don't hunt.

 

[tredding@swa]

The real cost....

Ok guys, not that the horse is quite dead yet, keep on floggin'...

I have never wanted to work for any air carrier except SWA, so I did what was necessary to be as qualified as possible when I interviewed. Yes I paid for my 737 type.

I also paid for my CE-500 type and my Lear type. I also REQUIRED anyone who has ever been interviewed by myself for a job as a captain to not only be typed in the equipment I was operating, but to also have sufficient hours in said equipment to qualify for "preferred" rates from my insurance broker(s).

The INVESTMENT I made in myself has paid off. I am hanging out the the "pool" waiting for my class date at SWA. So what DID it cost, and was it worth it??? You decide....

$8500 for everything including hotel,airfare,car, meals, etc...

=17 year career at SWA (hopefully, IF they call soon)

Let's see - that works out to $1.37 per DAY for my training over the next 17 years..... HHMmmmmm, I just had a grande latte' at Starbucks that cost me $3.70.....


You can slice it, dice it, "spin" it, scan it, talk about it, and say just about any **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing you want to about it, BUT in "MHO" it was the best $$$$ I have EVER spent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like many of you above have said - don't apply for a job if you don't like the policies or hiring practices. PLEASE go somewhere else, your attitude will probably play a large role in where you end up working (or NOT working) in the future anyhow.

FOr myself, I would rather see people HAPPY and enjoying the short time they have here... rather than all ragged off about whatever they are currently whining about.... lighten up....

Have a great day all - can't wait to make that 1st radio call... " Southwest xxx, ready for pushback from gate xx" - best $8500 I EVER spent!!!

Tredding

 

[RJones]

tredding@swa,

These guys arn't reading what you or I have to say about the issue. I'm glad I did what I did in getting the 737 type and I don't consider it "PFT."

I'll have 19 years with SWA and right now I have 9999.9 hours total time and hope my ten thousand'th hour is in a SWA 737 and it's my leg...it'll be on IOE so we'll see.

RJ #24 in the pool

 

[bobbysamd]

Another blow struck on the dead horse

Perhaps people are so up in arms about Southwest requiring the 737 type because it is an "airline."

At the risk of repeating someone else's thought, maybe it's all in the way you view it. Corporate generally requires its pilots to have the type and no one grumbles much about that. In fact, some people buy Lear, Citation, Beechjet types, etc. to qualify for these jobs. Moreover, many furloughees and other out-of-work pilots have applied for WIA benies to help pay for type ratings to get jobs. No one has griped about that; in fact, that has been encouraged because Uncle Sam wants people to use this program. So, how is it so much different that Southwest requires its new-hires to have the type? That's another analysis I would apply to determine if a 737 type is P-F-T for Southwest.

Once again, if the preferred vendor for 737 training were Southwest or a vendor it uses, that would come dangerously close to the definition of P-F-T. But, Southwest, to my knowledge, doesn't sell 737 types and doesn't care where you get yours as long as you have it.

 

[tredding@swa]

Amen Brother Jones!!

Pass the Kool-Aid, I need another hit off of that puppy.....

 

[enigma]

The definition of PFT is easy, whether or not SWA makes money from their 73 type requirement is a little harder.

To address the original question. I don't really know the origination of the requirement. I think that the monetary benefit to hiring only typed pilots is obvious, especially when you consider that the requirement was most likely implemented back when SWA was growing at a pace that really did necessitate the hiring of "soon to be" Captains. In todays environment, I doubt that SWA gains any immediately measurable profit from the requirement. As others have noted, SWA doesn't necessarily make any money from the requirement (because they don't care where you got it). From that, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that SWA doesn't count on the income and therefore has no profit motive. Matter if fact, in the recent past, SWA wouldn't sell you a type because their sims were so busy with their own training, that they didn't have any slots to sell.
My sources tell me that an SWA newhire gets the exactly the training that is required to produce a pilot who is up to SWA standards. In other words, SWA potentially spends more time on newhire training than some other airlines, not less. This is because they are willing to invest in a person who has proven to them that he/she has the personality/emotional maturity/desire to succeed as a SWA employee.

As for, PFT. I spent months refusing to use the term. I think "PFT" is a term coined by management and FSI specifically to confuse the issue. I prefer to call it PFJ, aka PayForJob. Hmmmm, maybe I'll go back to being the windmill tilter.

PFT is easy to define and it simply is: any flying job that requires a newhire to pay for the training that the certificate holder is legally obligated to provide to all newhired pilots. Quite simply put, the employer hires a PFJ'r because the PFJ'r is subsidizing the costs of initial training. (alternate definition: any pilot job that considers a newhires willingness to pay for that job, as a superior qualification to the newhires ability to actually do the job; and of course, demands such payment before the job offer.)

BTW, SWA is not PFJ, (nor PFT whatever its definition) , because the newhire is not required to subsidize his intial training.

What frustrates me about the PFJ argument, is this: The employer would pay for the training, if only we pilots had the cajones to demand respect for our skills. PFJ, reinforces managements perception that pilots are a bunch of prostitutes who will stab anyone in the back for personal gain.
No wonder they try and whipsaw us, IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!

frustratedly,
8N

BTW, I paid for my own 737 type rating. I did not get hired by SWA. I did get hired by other carriers and I can testify that having obtained the type was beneficial to convincing the interviewers that I could succeed in a competitive/cost driven, training program. In other words, the rating is on my certificate and I can refer to it. It has value outside of SWA. Unlike the newhire training that a Comair/ASA/GLA, etc newhire paid for.

 

[mar]

A response just for Timebuilder

Does engineering count?

As a matter of fact I'm a flight engineer right now. I never bothered to update my profile.

I wonder what makes you ask if I'm flying right now? Do I know you?

I don't mind the question, just curious how you might have known that I was recently "between jobs", as they say.

 

[Typhoon1244]

If ASA was PFT, then Southwest is PF-some-T. They wouldn't have made the type a requirement if it didn't save them something.

I don't think the term "PFJ" is accurate either. If the job had a built-in time limit (a la Gulfstream), then that would be PFJ. If I had to write a check every ___ years to keep my job, that would be PFJ. I would suggest that the fact that ASA is now paying back all that PFT money (however slowly) reduces the issue to the status of a "training contract."

It still boggles my mind that there are people out there who feel like the airlines "owed" them a job because they "paid their dues." I wish life was that fair. I didn't want to fly for ASA...not originally...I wanted to be part of another EAL father-and-son story. Frank Lorenzo and a whole bunch of scabs fixed that for me.

Either nobody knows the answer to my question or nobody wants to answer it: do the FAR's allow Southwest to shorten or accelerate its training syllabus because its newhires already have a 737 type rating? That was the original point of this thread...and it shouldn't be that hard a question to answer. Yes or no? Good lord, we could have finished this with one post instead of three pages if somebody would just answer that!

 

[46Driver]

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.
Trying to measure "respect" by the amount of money you make is useless. If that was the case then the entire military is disrespected (i.e., its a little more difficult to fly off of a ship than a 10,000 runway; its rather more dangerous dodging AAA over Iraq than your biggest worry being a covey of pigeons crossing centerline....) Same applies to all of the professions; being a policeman or fireman carries much greater responsibility than being a NBA player, but who makes the money? I doubt if "respect" is even a fleeting thought in a manager's mind - its simply supply, demand, and how do I improve my company's bottom line.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.

 

[Timebuilder]

Mar- you have a PM inbound.

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.

So true. If I pay for a 737 type, and don't go to Southwest then someone else will gain something by hiring me. To use an example that applies to me, when I equip myself with a LR-JET type rating, the Lear operator that hires me will benefit.

The difference to our discussion is this: types can go anywhere. PFT money used to buy a job can't.

(DR. Mc Coy, looking down at the horse) "He's dead, Jim."

 

[tdvalve]

For Typhoon1244:

You asked earlier "Does anybody remember my original question? Does Southwest gain any financial advantage by requiring a type rating when you come in the door? Yes or no? "

The answer is no. SWA hires FO's, not Captains, and there is no regulatory requirement for a FO to be type rated. Further, new-hire training is by regulation the same for all. (With some reductions possible for new-hires with significant Part 121 experience in the same airplane type with another carrier.) Since the vast majority of type rated new hires have exactly zero B-737 time, I doubt very much if the FAA or the insurance companies are much impressed.

When a FO is upgraded, he/she will get the exact same training and checkride whether or not he/she is type rated. The only difference is that a Fed or DE gives the ride if a type rating is required. I'm sure SWA has a reason for wanting applicants to hold B-737 type ratings, but it isn't to save a buck on training.

 

[w8n4swa]

RJones,

Good post earlier on defining PFT....crystal clear!

Also, many SWA pilots did NOT buy their type rating. Many had their rating by flying for another 737 carrier....someone earlier mentioned this about Vanguard. You have a choice....get your type rating with another airline to meet the swa requirements or get it yourself....either way works fine.