737 PFT: Set Me Straight

[mar]

You said it brother

Vik--I don't think I could've said it better. You have quite an enlightened perspective for a relative new-comer to this twisted industry.

Dogg--With all due respect my friend I don't think I get your drift. Would you mind explaining your position a little more for those of us that are up too late and may have indulged a little too much.

Peace all

 

[Saabslime]

Unlike true PFT programs, (Gulfstream, Pinnacle, etc.) SWA doesn't see a dime from you buying a 737 type so it's not profit motivated in any way. They couldn't care less how you get typed. Like others have said it's simply a job requirement if you want to work there.

 

[asacap]

I guess you could spin the PFT issue both ways quite easily. It seems to come down to wether or not you want to work there. If you do, then it's not PFT. If you don't, then it is. Bottom line is - you can't get the job if you don't pay. That's a fact. Go ahead and continue spinning.

 

[RJones]

What is Pay for Training? Well it's just what it says...that you are willing to provide personal credit for the training costs that are required by the FAA, either in advance/up front, or as in most cases you sign a contract that binds you to pay should you elect to leave prior to the date ending that contract.

The idea of Pay for Training is to eliminate turnover. What upsets everyone with this issue is that the FAA requires initial training and what are you going to do with that companies training should you leave, but yet you've paid for that training...or at least signed a contract that says you will should you leave. If you go to work for company A and they fly MD-80's, you quit and go to work for company Z that also flies MD-80's, are you going to get a pass on initial training? I think not, you have to go through it all over again. So it's not a marketable investment for anyone who does it.

Like the rest of you I don't like to see this stuff. Your strength is in what you bring to the table in the form of work you can provide to any company, not to provide credit for training. You have to think of yourself as a product your selling and stay away from buying yourself a job.

Let's take a look at Southwest and the 737-type rating requirement for employment. A few here feel it's a PFT, but I beg to differ. It's a requirement for employment just like the ATP is. Some commuters used to advertise commercial with ATP written, I haven't seen that in a while.

Requiring a type rating for a job is not new, most corporate and 135 charter outfits require them as well. Of the type ratings you see to the left one was purchased for me (CE500), this after six months on the job, one I studied on my own and took the plane to the FAA (CE650), and one I paid for as a pre-employment job requirement (B-737). The nice thing about these type ratings is that they are mine, you can't have them, I didn't sign any contracts binding me down, I am free go to another employer if I wish.

My point here, PFT (I regret to say I signed one but was able to get out of it, will never do that again) is not an investment...it's quicksand, why do it when you can't take the training to another company. The type, it's yours and nobody but the FAA can take it away from you...quite a distinction I think!

RJ

 

[asacap]

Hey RJONES,

Just a quick question, did you buy a 737 type? Please, just yes or no, no spin. Thanks.

 

[RJones]

yes

 

[Timebuilder]

for asacap

You might have missed this, above. I think it lacks any kind of spin:

PFT:

1) You pay money to a specific carrier in order to fly for that specific carrier.

2) You take a position in return for that money which would normally be filled by a paid, competant pilot, who is paid a wage as a cost of doing business, not from the money he paid in.

If I pay money to say, Gulfstream Academy, and take an FO position based on the money I just paid to said company, that would be PFT.

If I train for a type rating and take a checkride, I have armed myself with advanced training that is portable, good at any carrier. I will not be paid out of an account that I have just paid into, and I have not purchased the right to act as a required crewmember.

Wouldn't you say that these are factual differences?

 

[asacap]

RJONES,

Thanks for your reply and for your honesty. I wish there was no need to pay for training, but thats just the way it is sometimes. I would buy the 737 type also for a job at southwest also.

TIMEBUILDER

However, it is still PAYING money, to receive TRAINING on a Boeing 737 type in order to increase your chances of GETTING THE JOB. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is. I believe you are still spinning the issue. It seems that you are drawing lines of distinction to make yourself look better than those who paid for a different type of PFT. Refer back to the first line of my response to you.

 

[Timebuilder]

tag, you're "it"

I PAID MONEY to get my multiengine TRAINING so I could get a JOB.

Does that make that PFT?

 

[TurboS7]

We are not hiring where I work at the present time. If we were here is the way it would work for the 737-800. If we had two compatable people they would have 6500TT, both military, either Navy or AirForce, and 4 year degrees. If one had a 737 and the other did not we all things even we would hire the one with the type. In most cases since we would be hiring more than one we would hire them both, the military being the next important issue, next the degree, then next previous 121 or 135jet experience.Nowadays it is impossible to get hired as we have ex-USair, United , and even American 737 guys current and qualified banging on the door begging for a job. It is tough out there and when UAL goes Chapter 11(they have already notifed United Express that they are going to do it) there will be a bunch more.

 

[Typhoon1244]

PFT: ...you take a position in return for that money which would normally be filled by a paid, competant pilot...

So anybody who paid for training is incompetent, huh? Sit on it and spin, Timebuilder.

I was what MetroSheriff calls one of the "lucky" ones. Very lucky. (Particularly when you consider I haven't been furloughed...yet.) But does being lucky make me incompetent? If that'd been the case, it wouldn't have mattered how much money I had. I'm sorry, but I take this as a personal insult.

I've met scabs. Scabs are people who are willing to take a job someone else already had. I do not equate PFT with being a scab. If you showed up at ASA in 1998 and didn't have the $6K, you were no better off than somebody who showed up at SWA and couldn't afford to get a 737 type.

 

[Timebuilder]

So anybody who paid for training is incompetent, huh? Sit on it and spin, Timebuilder.

I want you to have a friend or two read that post, and see if they see the same offense that you are seeing. There wasn't any attempt at insult, and you need to be a little less sensitive.

Here's an amplified version of what I am saying: employers screen, hire, train, and pay people whom they believe are good, competent applicants. A PFT "employee" takes a job opening from one of those possible applicants, many of whom are currently available.

Notice that nothing says that any PFT employees are incompetent, it only says that a person who would otherwise have the job, a competent person, does not have the opportunity without paying for the priviledge.

I'm hoping that this has clarified what is clearly an emotional issue.

 

[bobbysamd]

Okay, I'll bite, too

Ten years ago, I was trying hard to get a commuter job. I met or exceded the requirements, which were, generally, 1500 total hours and 500 of multi. ATP was desirable; I had that, too. I got a few interviews, but very few if compared against the reams of paper I dispatched to try to get them. Much younger pilots than me were getting the interviews and jobs. It appeared that my only chance for a commuter job was to P-F-T. In other words, let my wallet do the talking and enable me to cut in front of line for a job. I refused. My pride was worth more than any job, notwithstanding the mistrust I felt from forking over money to an employer, but that's another issue.

Was I incompetent? I dunno . . . I never had the chance to demonstrate my competence or incompetence for a commuter.

PFT: Cutting in line ahead of others via paying money to an employer as a condition of employment to take a position in return for that money which would normally be filled by a pilot hired through a standard employment process with no money exchanged between pilot and employer. Is that a fair definition of P-F-T?

 

[Timebuilder]

I think so, Bobby.

Maybe I should have left out the word "competent". It's likely that typhoon is a competent pilot if he made it this far. The guys with 500 hours? Good question, isn't it? Whenever someone is paying to sit in a airplane in place of a hired and paid employee, it tends to cast doubt on whether or not they would be in such an aircraft had they not paid for the job. It doesn't mean that they are all bad pilots. It means I think they made a poor decision.


I've made some, myself.

 

[EagleRJ]

I've met scabs. Scabs are people who are willing to take a job someone else already had. I do not equate PFT with being a scab. If you showed up at ASA in 1998 and didn't have the $6K, you were no better off than somebody who showed up at SWA and couldn't afford to get a 737 type.

Let's look at that argument from another angle. If I interviewed at ASA in 1998, and offered to pay $8000 instead of $6000, and was offered the job, how would you think the pilot who was shown the door would have felt? What if he was the more qualified applicant?

You say that a scab is someone who is willing to take a job someone else already had, but isn't taking a job someone else is better qualified for the very same thing? It really isn't a case of what you can "afford". When I was at my last job, I wouldn't have minded flying for Comair or ASA, but there were scores of pilots with less time and experience who were more than willing to give the company $8000-$12,000 to step in front of me. More power to them- I hope they have long rewarding careers. The pilot community has no question, though, about where their loyalties lie.

You really haven't mentioned, Typhoon...did you PFT? Are you looking for justification?

 

[dogg]

I have a question....... or maybe a comment...... Does anyone really believe that with 2000 total time most of it in an F16 or 6000 total time half of it in a turboprop, that buying a 737 type rating is somehow making you more competitive. I will buy the notion that a citation or lear or hawker type might make you more competitive, in the corporate world. The 737 type has gone the way of the ATP. It is a great money maker for purveyors of type ratings but unless you have the 737 experience to back it up, it means little. The ATP used to be the measure that everyone was striving for. But now, if you show up and pay you get an ATP. Much the same with the 737 type. Pay the money, get the type. I think my point is this. A 737 type rating in the hands of someone with little or no experience in the 737, is nothing more than paying to be considered for employment at SouthWest. They have been very careful to slowly change what was once an ironclad requirement to be interviewed into a requirement for employment. And there is nothing in the world wrong with it. But when you are not selected for hire with SouthWest, it will do you no good elsewhere. Much the same as paying 6000 dollars for emb120 training and then not being hired............... or am I wrong and any type of professional documented training makes you more competitive.

Just trying to sort out the difference between retired lt.col buying a type rating for the sole purpose of employment at Southwest and a 23 year old kid buying emb120 training for the sole purpose of employment at ASA.

I don't feel that an individuals right to choose is in any way wrong, however I do question the motives of the companies that require it.

 

[Typhoon1244]

During my interview, the chief pilot looked at my logbook and my resume, not my checkbook. Before that, I had a good run in the sim eval. I wasn't Chuck Yeager, but I was apparently a pretty good F/O. Yes, I know it sounds shocking to some of you, but my employer knew I was a good pilot before I handed over any money...just like Southwest. (I didn't know at the time that we'd be getting that money back...but I gladly took it.)

Now, suppose I lived in Dallas and had really had my heart set on flying for Southwest...but for whatever reason I couldn't scrape together the $____ I needed to get the type rating. It would probably look to me like people less deserving were getting my job...and from that standpoint, I still don't see a difference.

I don't understand what the big deal is. If you don't want to work for Southwest, don't worry about buying a type-rating. If you don't like PFT, don't do it...but stop blaming me because I was lucky enough to do it. You're right about one thing: if I hadn't had the resources at the time, I'd probably be on furlough at Co-Ex.

I know a guy who finished A.F. flight training just in time for the draw-down and walked right into a job at United. Don't you think he cut in front of a bunch of people who'd spent years building time?

 

[46Driver]

Cutting in line is a poor analogy for the simple reason that you are an applicant - not an employee. The applicant has no rights - however the company has the right to hire whoever they want. Is it fair that minorities get hired with less hours? Is it fair that females get in with less hours? Is it fair that military guys get hired with less hours? Is it fair that some lieutenants pay thousands of dollars for civilian flight training prior to military flight school to get jets while poorer lieutenants get helos or attrite? (Before you flame, I'm a Marine - helos were my first choice.) Life isn't fair so you deal with it the best you can. If you were talking about a communist society, a government agency, or utopia; you might have a case - but this is America - the land of free enterprise and individual initiative. If you don't want to PFT, fine, don't apply at a PFT company.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...the company has the right to hire whoever they want. Is it fair that minorities get hired with less hours? Is it fair that females get in with less hours? Is it fair that military guys get hired with less hours? Is it fair that some lieutenants pay thousands of dollars for civilian flight training prior to military flight school to get jets while poorer lieutenants get helos or attrite?

Good points...although I didn't know it made that much difference how much time you had when you went into the service.

(By the way, when I applied for Army flight training as caucasian--on my father's side--I was rejected. When I applied as hispanic--on my mother's side--I went to the top of the list. Same I.Q., same education, same personality, but different racial category. Could've been a coincidence...)

Life isn't fair, but it's better than the alternative.

Does anybody remember my original question? Does Southwest gain any financial advantage by requiring a type rating when you come in the door? Yes or no?

I have no preference which is the correct answer, I just want to know.

 

[Typhoon1244]

If I interviewed at ASA in 1998, and offered to pay $8000 instead of $6000, and was offered the job, how would you think the pilot who was shown the door would have felt?

Well for one thing, ASA's PFT setup was a contract, not an auction. I'm not sure this is a valid comparison.

You say that a scab is someone who is willing to take a job someone else already had, but isn't taking a job someone else is better qualified for the very same thing?

I have a problem with this line of reasoning. If nobody had that job already, if no one was displaced, then the epithet "scab" does not apply. If somebody gets a job originally because they had an advantage somebody else didn't have, that doesn't make them a scab. There are a lot of really good pilots out there without college degrees. Does that mean they've been cheated by every pilot who went to college? If my flight school charges less for instruction than yours does, am I cheating? If my father taught me how to fly, is that cheating? What about the military guys? Did they cheat?

While I was instructing, I knew a lot of guys who took a dim view of PFT. Almost without exception, they made the same speech: "I refuse to work for _____ because PFT goes against my principles...and I don't have the money." Put yourself in my shoes, knowing what we know now: I could have applied at ASA and been hired, or waited to get hired elsewhere, and be furloughed after 9/11. What would you do?

My father, an EAL striker who hates scabs, told me to "grab the seniority number and run." Is that cheating? Maybe. Maybe he was just being realistic. But I don't have any aps out at any majors, nor am I likely to anytime soon, so don't mind me. I'm not in your way.

More power to them- I hope they have long rewarding careers.

Don't lie!

The pilot community has no question, though, about where their loyalties lie.

Really? Tell me where my loyalties lie. When I flew my first line trip, I didn't notice your name stenciled on the back of my seat. Nobody was entitled to my job any more than I was. No, I didn't have as much time as you apparently did in '98. But I'll bet our job preformance was and is pretty similar.

You really haven't mentioned, Typhoon...did you PFT? Are you looking for justification?

I'm sorry, I thought I made it clear earlier. Yes, PFT was still going on at ASA when I got hired. Justification? No, I've never felt I needed that. To tell you the truth, before I joined this webboard, I had no idea there was so much hatred, jealousy, and animosity about this issue.

But if SWA does gain financially from its hiring practices, and if there are people out there who want to work there but can't afford it, then I don't want to hear any more flak about PFT.