737 PFT: Set Me Straight

[Typhoon1244]

PFT: ...you take a position in return for that money which would normally be filled by a paid, competant pilot...

So anybody who paid for training is incompetent, huh? Sit on it and spin, Timebuilder.

I was what MetroSheriff calls one of the "lucky" ones. Very lucky. (Particularly when you consider I haven't been furloughed...yet.) But does being lucky make me incompetent? If that'd been the case, it wouldn't have mattered how much money I had. I'm sorry, but I take this as a personal insult.

I've met scabs. Scabs are people who are willing to take a job someone else already had. I do not equate PFT with being a scab. If you showed up at ASA in 1998 and didn't have the $6K, you were no better off than somebody who showed up at SWA and couldn't afford to get a 737 type.

 

[Timebuilder]

So anybody who paid for training is incompetent, huh? Sit on it and spin, Timebuilder.

I want you to have a friend or two read that post, and see if they see the same offense that you are seeing. There wasn't any attempt at insult, and you need to be a little less sensitive.

Here's an amplified version of what I am saying: employers screen, hire, train, and pay people whom they believe are good, competent applicants. A PFT "employee" takes a job opening from one of those possible applicants, many of whom are currently available.

Notice that nothing says that any PFT employees are incompetent, it only says that a person who would otherwise have the job, a competent person, does not have the opportunity without paying for the priviledge.

I'm hoping that this has clarified what is clearly an emotional issue.

 

[bobbysamd]

Okay, I'll bite, too

Ten years ago, I was trying hard to get a commuter job. I met or exceded the requirements, which were, generally, 1500 total hours and 500 of multi. ATP was desirable; I had that, too. I got a few interviews, but very few if compared against the reams of paper I dispatched to try to get them. Much younger pilots than me were getting the interviews and jobs. It appeared that my only chance for a commuter job was to P-F-T. In other words, let my wallet do the talking and enable me to cut in front of line for a job. I refused. My pride was worth more than any job, notwithstanding the mistrust I felt from forking over money to an employer, but that's another issue.

Was I incompetent? I dunno . . . I never had the chance to demonstrate my competence or incompetence for a commuter.

PFT: Cutting in line ahead of others via paying money to an employer as a condition of employment to take a position in return for that money which would normally be filled by a pilot hired through a standard employment process with no money exchanged between pilot and employer. Is that a fair definition of P-F-T?

 

[Timebuilder]

I think so, Bobby.

Maybe I should have left out the word "competent". It's likely that typhoon is a competent pilot if he made it this far. The guys with 500 hours? Good question, isn't it? Whenever someone is paying to sit in a airplane in place of a hired and paid employee, it tends to cast doubt on whether or not they would be in such an aircraft had they not paid for the job. It doesn't mean that they are all bad pilots. It means I think they made a poor decision.


I've made some, myself.

 

[EagleRJ]

I've met scabs. Scabs are people who are willing to take a job someone else already had. I do not equate PFT with being a scab. If you showed up at ASA in 1998 and didn't have the $6K, you were no better off than somebody who showed up at SWA and couldn't afford to get a 737 type.

Let's look at that argument from another angle. If I interviewed at ASA in 1998, and offered to pay $8000 instead of $6000, and was offered the job, how would you think the pilot who was shown the door would have felt? What if he was the more qualified applicant?

You say that a scab is someone who is willing to take a job someone else already had, but isn't taking a job someone else is better qualified for the very same thing? It really isn't a case of what you can "afford". When I was at my last job, I wouldn't have minded flying for Comair or ASA, but there were scores of pilots with less time and experience who were more than willing to give the company $8000-$12,000 to step in front of me. More power to them- I hope they have long rewarding careers. The pilot community has no question, though, about where their loyalties lie.

You really haven't mentioned, Typhoon...did you PFT? Are you looking for justification?

 

[dogg]

I have a question....... or maybe a comment...... Does anyone really believe that with 2000 total time most of it in an F16 or 6000 total time half of it in a turboprop, that buying a 737 type rating is somehow making you more competitive. I will buy the notion that a citation or lear or hawker type might make you more competitive, in the corporate world. The 737 type has gone the way of the ATP. It is a great money maker for purveyors of type ratings but unless you have the 737 experience to back it up, it means little. The ATP used to be the measure that everyone was striving for. But now, if you show up and pay you get an ATP. Much the same with the 737 type. Pay the money, get the type. I think my point is this. A 737 type rating in the hands of someone with little or no experience in the 737, is nothing more than paying to be considered for employment at SouthWest. They have been very careful to slowly change what was once an ironclad requirement to be interviewed into a requirement for employment. And there is nothing in the world wrong with it. But when you are not selected for hire with SouthWest, it will do you no good elsewhere. Much the same as paying 6000 dollars for emb120 training and then not being hired............... or am I wrong and any type of professional documented training makes you more competitive.

Just trying to sort out the difference between retired lt.col buying a type rating for the sole purpose of employment at Southwest and a 23 year old kid buying emb120 training for the sole purpose of employment at ASA.

I don't feel that an individuals right to choose is in any way wrong, however I do question the motives of the companies that require it.

 

[Typhoon1244]

During my interview, the chief pilot looked at my logbook and my resume, not my checkbook. Before that, I had a good run in the sim eval. I wasn't Chuck Yeager, but I was apparently a pretty good F/O. Yes, I know it sounds shocking to some of you, but my employer knew I was a good pilot before I handed over any money...just like Southwest. (I didn't know at the time that we'd be getting that money back...but I gladly took it.)

Now, suppose I lived in Dallas and had really had my heart set on flying for Southwest...but for whatever reason I couldn't scrape together the $____ I needed to get the type rating. It would probably look to me like people less deserving were getting my job...and from that standpoint, I still don't see a difference.

I don't understand what the big deal is. If you don't want to work for Southwest, don't worry about buying a type-rating. If you don't like PFT, don't do it...but stop blaming me because I was lucky enough to do it. You're right about one thing: if I hadn't had the resources at the time, I'd probably be on furlough at Co-Ex.

I know a guy who finished A.F. flight training just in time for the draw-down and walked right into a job at United. Don't you think he cut in front of a bunch of people who'd spent years building time?

 

[46Driver]

Cutting in line is a poor analogy for the simple reason that you are an applicant - not an employee. The applicant has no rights - however the company has the right to hire whoever they want. Is it fair that minorities get hired with less hours? Is it fair that females get in with less hours? Is it fair that military guys get hired with less hours? Is it fair that some lieutenants pay thousands of dollars for civilian flight training prior to military flight school to get jets while poorer lieutenants get helos or attrite? (Before you flame, I'm a Marine - helos were my first choice.) Life isn't fair so you deal with it the best you can. If you were talking about a communist society, a government agency, or utopia; you might have a case - but this is America - the land of free enterprise and individual initiative. If you don't want to PFT, fine, don't apply at a PFT company.

 

[Typhoon1244]

...the company has the right to hire whoever they want. Is it fair that minorities get hired with less hours? Is it fair that females get in with less hours? Is it fair that military guys get hired with less hours? Is it fair that some lieutenants pay thousands of dollars for civilian flight training prior to military flight school to get jets while poorer lieutenants get helos or attrite?

Good points...although I didn't know it made that much difference how much time you had when you went into the service.

(By the way, when I applied for Army flight training as caucasian--on my father's side--I was rejected. When I applied as hispanic--on my mother's side--I went to the top of the list. Same I.Q., same education, same personality, but different racial category. Could've been a coincidence...)

Life isn't fair, but it's better than the alternative.

Does anybody remember my original question? Does Southwest gain any financial advantage by requiring a type rating when you come in the door? Yes or no?

I have no preference which is the correct answer, I just want to know.

 

[Typhoon1244]

If I interviewed at ASA in 1998, and offered to pay $8000 instead of $6000, and was offered the job, how would you think the pilot who was shown the door would have felt?

Well for one thing, ASA's PFT setup was a contract, not an auction. I'm not sure this is a valid comparison.

You say that a scab is someone who is willing to take a job someone else already had, but isn't taking a job someone else is better qualified for the very same thing?

I have a problem with this line of reasoning. If nobody had that job already, if no one was displaced, then the epithet "scab" does not apply. If somebody gets a job originally because they had an advantage somebody else didn't have, that doesn't make them a scab. There are a lot of really good pilots out there without college degrees. Does that mean they've been cheated by every pilot who went to college? If my flight school charges less for instruction than yours does, am I cheating? If my father taught me how to fly, is that cheating? What about the military guys? Did they cheat?

While I was instructing, I knew a lot of guys who took a dim view of PFT. Almost without exception, they made the same speech: "I refuse to work for _____ because PFT goes against my principles...and I don't have the money." Put yourself in my shoes, knowing what we know now: I could have applied at ASA and been hired, or waited to get hired elsewhere, and be furloughed after 9/11. What would you do?

My father, an EAL striker who hates scabs, told me to "grab the seniority number and run." Is that cheating? Maybe. Maybe he was just being realistic. But I don't have any aps out at any majors, nor am I likely to anytime soon, so don't mind me. I'm not in your way.

More power to them- I hope they have long rewarding careers.

Don't lie!

The pilot community has no question, though, about where their loyalties lie.

Really? Tell me where my loyalties lie. When I flew my first line trip, I didn't notice your name stenciled on the back of my seat. Nobody was entitled to my job any more than I was. No, I didn't have as much time as you apparently did in '98. But I'll bet our job preformance was and is pretty similar.

You really haven't mentioned, Typhoon...did you PFT? Are you looking for justification?

I'm sorry, I thought I made it clear earlier. Yes, PFT was still going on at ASA when I got hired. Justification? No, I've never felt I needed that. To tell you the truth, before I joined this webboard, I had no idea there was so much hatred, jealousy, and animosity about this issue.

But if SWA does gain financially from its hiring practices, and if there are people out there who want to work there but can't afford it, then I don't want to hear any more flak about PFT.

 

[MetroSheriff]

The infamous PFT debate...ever heard of it.


Uhhh....yessir. That horse done died, but he sure is still stinkin' up the joint.


Folks, please, for the love o' Pete, let it go.

A less contentious discussion would be nice.

How 'bout ProLife vs. ProChoice.

How 'bout religion.

Anyone, anyone. Can we pick a new topic, pleeeeease???

 

[asacap]

Timebuilder,

I respect your opinion but I still disagree with you. The only difference I can see is that typical PFT is on a brasilia or jetstream, and southwest is a Boeing 737. Southwest is a great company with 737's and the people that critisized and condemned previous PFT are now trying very hard to draw lines of distinction so they can be in a different (better) category. They are trying to justify southwest PFT. It is PFT. There are people very qualified to fly for southwest but are not willing to buy the 737 type. By your definition, people that are applying there are cutting in line.

EagleRJ,

The pilot community knows where there loyalty lies. What the hell are you talking about. What loyalty? Who the hell do you think you are you arrogant judgemental schmuck. Where you work has a lot to do with luck. Don't claim luck as a rare and unique skill.

 

[Typhoon1244]

That horse done died, but he sure is still stinkin' up the joint. Folks, please, for the love o' Pete, let it go.

Well, I'm fairly new to this board...wanted to make sure I got my share.

A less contentious discussion would be nice. How 'bout ProLife vs. ProChoice. How 'bout religion. Anyone, anyone. Can we pick a new topic, pleeeeease???

Well, okay. I'll start: I think all aborted fetuses should be sacrificed to Lucifer. Who wants to fight about it?

(Take that look off your face! I'm just kidding!)

 

[mar]

I'm on a mission from god

You see? This is the problem with the whole PFT discussion.

People get crazy.

It's really quite simple. If you pay a company for their training that's required by Federal Aviation Regulation then that's PFT.

That's it.

It's really simple.

PFT is nothing less; nothing more.

I've been checking into this (and other) boards for probably four years. People always use hyperbole in the worst form to justify whatever weak point they're trying to make.

Just stick to the point: Did you pay your employer for your Initial New Hire training? If so, then that's PFT.

A 737 type is *NOT* PFT.

I will forever correct this misconception because I'm on a mission from god--and I have nothing better to do.

Keep it simple, ok?

 

[Timebuilder]

asacap

There are people very qualified to fly for southwest but are not willing to buy the 737 type. By your definition, people that are applying there are cutting in line.

If you are talking about my definition of PFT, that isn't correct. In order for a qualified person to be in line at SWA, thay have to have a type, either brand new and never used, or an old type from their old flying job (Vangard?). In either case, the money for the type doesn't go to SWA, ergo, it is not PFT.

Fortunately, this is still a free country, and we can agree to disagree. At the very least, we have made clear our beliefs on this contentious issue.

And, yes, I did have the money. No, a PFT operator did not get my money.

Are you flying these days, mar?

 

[MetroSheriff]

Timebuilder,

They are trying to justify southwest PFT. It is PFT. There are people very qualified to fly for southwest but are not willing to buy the 737 type. By your definition, people that are applying there are cutting in line.

Hey ASACAP,

If they don't have the type, they are NOT qualified for employment at SWA. You can go to their website ( http://www.iflyswa.com/careers/pilots.html ) if you are having trouble understanding their requirements. You can't cut in front of someone who doesn't meet those requirements. You either meet them or you don't. Define those criteria as you wish.

 

[csmith]

Hey ASACAP,

If they don't have the type, they are NOT qualified for employment at SWA. You can go to their website ( http://www.iflyswa.com/careers/pilots.html ) if you are having trouble understanding their requirements. You can't cut in front of someone who doesn't meet those requirements. You either meet them or you don't. Define those criteria as you wish.

Actually now they will put in the pool without the type, have you notify them when you get the type, and then activate you for a class date. They do this because they get a break in insurance with a 737 typed pilot. They do not charge you for the FAA mandated initial training which every pilot must go through at every carrier. Other carriers have charged for this training.

C

 

[MetroSheriff]

Actually now they will put in the pool without the type, have you notify them when you get the type, and then activate you for a class date. They do this because they get a break in insurance with a 737 typed pilot. They do not charge you for the FAA mandated initial training which every pilot must go through at every carrier. Other carriers have charged for this training.

C

Csmith,

Correct. You can be interviewed, and receive a "conditional" offer of employment. I was just trying to explain to ASACAP that without it you a NOT qualified for EMPLOYMENT. Poolies are not employees. As such, folks with the type are not cutting in front of those with out it. By definition, those without the type do not meet the "qualifications for employment. That is all.

For whatever his reason or rationale, he is just trying to tell us that SWA is the apple to Gulftream's orange.

As MOST folks know (or will admit)...that dog don't hunt.

 

[tredding@swa]

The real cost....

Ok guys, not that the horse is quite dead yet, keep on floggin'...

I have never wanted to work for any air carrier except SWA, so I did what was necessary to be as qualified as possible when I interviewed. Yes I paid for my 737 type.

I also paid for my CE-500 type and my Lear type. I also REQUIRED anyone who has ever been interviewed by myself for a job as a captain to not only be typed in the equipment I was operating, but to also have sufficient hours in said equipment to qualify for "preferred" rates from my insurance broker(s).

The INVESTMENT I made in myself has paid off. I am hanging out the the "pool" waiting for my class date at SWA. So what DID it cost, and was it worth it??? You decide....

$8500 for everything including hotel,airfare,car, meals, etc...

=17 year career at SWA (hopefully, IF they call soon)

Let's see - that works out to $1.37 per DAY for my training over the next 17 years..... HHMmmmmm, I just had a grande latte' at Starbucks that cost me $3.70.....


You can slice it, dice it, "spin" it, scan it, talk about it, and say just about any **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing you want to about it, BUT in "MHO" it was the best $$$$ I have EVER spent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like many of you above have said - don't apply for a job if you don't like the policies or hiring practices. PLEASE go somewhere else, your attitude will probably play a large role in where you end up working (or NOT working) in the future anyhow.

FOr myself, I would rather see people HAPPY and enjoying the short time they have here... rather than all ragged off about whatever they are currently whining about.... lighten up....

Have a great day all - can't wait to make that 1st radio call... " Southwest xxx, ready for pushback from gate xx" - best $8500 I EVER spent!!!

Tredding

 

[RJones]

tredding@swa,

These guys arn't reading what you or I have to say about the issue. I'm glad I did what I did in getting the 737 type and I don't consider it "PFT."

I'll have 19 years with SWA and right now I have 9999.9 hours total time and hope my ten thousand'th hour is in a SWA 737 and it's my leg...it'll be on IOE so we'll see.

RJ #24 in the pool

 

[bobbysamd]

Another blow struck on the dead horse

Perhaps people are so up in arms about Southwest requiring the 737 type because it is an "airline."

At the risk of repeating someone else's thought, maybe it's all in the way you view it. Corporate generally requires its pilots to have the type and no one grumbles much about that. In fact, some people buy Lear, Citation, Beechjet types, etc. to qualify for these jobs. Moreover, many furloughees and other out-of-work pilots have applied for WIA benies to help pay for type ratings to get jobs. No one has griped about that; in fact, that has been encouraged because Uncle Sam wants people to use this program. So, how is it so much different that Southwest requires its new-hires to have the type? That's another analysis I would apply to determine if a 737 type is P-F-T for Southwest.

Once again, if the preferred vendor for 737 training were Southwest or a vendor it uses, that would come dangerously close to the definition of P-F-T. But, Southwest, to my knowledge, doesn't sell 737 types and doesn't care where you get yours as long as you have it.

 

[tredding@swa]

Amen Brother Jones!!

Pass the Kool-Aid, I need another hit off of that puppy.....

 

[enigma]

The definition of PFT is easy, whether or not SWA makes money from their 73 type requirement is a little harder.

To address the original question. I don't really know the origination of the requirement. I think that the monetary benefit to hiring only typed pilots is obvious, especially when you consider that the requirement was most likely implemented back when SWA was growing at a pace that really did necessitate the hiring of "soon to be" Captains. In todays environment, I doubt that SWA gains any immediately measurable profit from the requirement. As others have noted, SWA doesn't necessarily make any money from the requirement (because they don't care where you got it). From that, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that SWA doesn't count on the income and therefore has no profit motive. Matter if fact, in the recent past, SWA wouldn't sell you a type because their sims were so busy with their own training, that they didn't have any slots to sell.
My sources tell me that an SWA newhire gets the exactly the training that is required to produce a pilot who is up to SWA standards. In other words, SWA potentially spends more time on newhire training than some other airlines, not less. This is because they are willing to invest in a person who has proven to them that he/she has the personality/emotional maturity/desire to succeed as a SWA employee.

As for, PFT. I spent months refusing to use the term. I think "PFT" is a term coined by management and FSI specifically to confuse the issue. I prefer to call it PFJ, aka PayForJob. Hmmmm, maybe I'll go back to being the windmill tilter.

PFT is easy to define and it simply is: any flying job that requires a newhire to pay for the training that the certificate holder is legally obligated to provide to all newhired pilots. Quite simply put, the employer hires a PFJ'r because the PFJ'r is subsidizing the costs of initial training. (alternate definition: any pilot job that considers a newhires willingness to pay for that job, as a superior qualification to the newhires ability to actually do the job; and of course, demands such payment before the job offer.)

BTW, SWA is not PFJ, (nor PFT whatever its definition) , because the newhire is not required to subsidize his intial training.

What frustrates me about the PFJ argument, is this: The employer would pay for the training, if only we pilots had the cajones to demand respect for our skills. PFJ, reinforces managements perception that pilots are a bunch of prostitutes who will stab anyone in the back for personal gain.
No wonder they try and whipsaw us, IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!

frustratedly,
8N

BTW, I paid for my own 737 type rating. I did not get hired by SWA. I did get hired by other carriers and I can testify that having obtained the type was beneficial to convincing the interviewers that I could succeed in a competitive/cost driven, training program. In other words, the rating is on my certificate and I can refer to it. It has value outside of SWA. Unlike the newhire training that a Comair/ASA/GLA, etc newhire paid for.

 

[mar]

A response just for Timebuilder

Does engineering count?

As a matter of fact I'm a flight engineer right now. I never bothered to update my profile.

I wonder what makes you ask if I'm flying right now? Do I know you?

I don't mind the question, just curious how you might have known that I was recently "between jobs", as they say.

 

[Typhoon1244]

If ASA was PFT, then Southwest is PF-some-T. They wouldn't have made the type a requirement if it didn't save them something.

I don't think the term "PFJ" is accurate either. If the job had a built-in time limit (a la Gulfstream), then that would be PFJ. If I had to write a check every ___ years to keep my job, that would be PFJ. I would suggest that the fact that ASA is now paying back all that PFT money (however slowly) reduces the issue to the status of a "training contract."

It still boggles my mind that there are people out there who feel like the airlines "owed" them a job because they "paid their dues." I wish life was that fair. I didn't want to fly for ASA...not originally...I wanted to be part of another EAL father-and-son story. Frank Lorenzo and a whole bunch of scabs fixed that for me.

Either nobody knows the answer to my question or nobody wants to answer it: do the FAR's allow Southwest to shorten or accelerate its training syllabus because its newhires already have a 737 type rating? That was the original point of this thread...and it shouldn't be that hard a question to answer. Yes or no? Good lord, we could have finished this with one post instead of three pages if somebody would just answer that!

 

[46Driver]

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.
Trying to measure "respect" by the amount of money you make is useless. If that was the case then the entire military is disrespected (i.e., its a little more difficult to fly off of a ship than a 10,000 runway; its rather more dangerous dodging AAA over Iraq than your biggest worry being a covey of pigeons crossing centerline....) Same applies to all of the professions; being a policeman or fireman carries much greater responsibility than being a NBA player, but who makes the money? I doubt if "respect" is even a fleeting thought in a manager's mind - its simply supply, demand, and how do I improve my company's bottom line.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.

 

[Timebuilder]

Mar- you have a PM inbound.

I believe someone said earlier that Southwest receives an insurance break for hiring pilots who already have a 737 type rating. You may not have paid money directly to the company but by providing your own training to specifically try and get the job with Southwest, Southwest is profiting from the pilot's labor.

So true. If I pay for a 737 type, and don't go to Southwest then someone else will gain something by hiring me. To use an example that applies to me, when I equip myself with a LR-JET type rating, the Lear operator that hires me will benefit.

The difference to our discussion is this: types can go anywhere. PFT money used to buy a job can't.

(DR. Mc Coy, looking down at the horse) "He's dead, Jim."

 

[tdvalve]

For Typhoon1244:

You asked earlier "Does anybody remember my original question? Does Southwest gain any financial advantage by requiring a type rating when you come in the door? Yes or no? "

The answer is no. SWA hires FO's, not Captains, and there is no regulatory requirement for a FO to be type rated. Further, new-hire training is by regulation the same for all. (With some reductions possible for new-hires with significant Part 121 experience in the same airplane type with another carrier.) Since the vast majority of type rated new hires have exactly zero B-737 time, I doubt very much if the FAA or the insurance companies are much impressed.

When a FO is upgraded, he/she will get the exact same training and checkride whether or not he/she is type rated. The only difference is that a Fed or DE gives the ride if a type rating is required. I'm sure SWA has a reason for wanting applicants to hold B-737 type ratings, but it isn't to save a buck on training.

 

[w8n4swa]

RJones,

Good post earlier on defining PFT....crystal clear!

Also, many SWA pilots did NOT buy their type rating. Many had their rating by flying for another 737 carrier....someone earlier mentioned this about Vanguard. You have a choice....get your type rating with another airline to meet the swa requirements or get it yourself....either way works fine.