50 seat Jets. Uncertain future?

[Freebrd]

Boring Jenny, just boring. Man come up some new material willya PUTZ!

 

[Flyer1015]

Boring Jenny, just boring. Man come up some new material willya PUTZ!

Is General Lee a woman?

 

[On Your Six]

Is General Lee a woman?

Are you Jerry Sandusky?


Godspeed!


OYS

 

[Freebrd]

Is General Lee/OysYoYo a woman?

nah she's a silly little girl and a putz

oh yeah....."Godspeed"

oh and......Bye bye!

 

[flyboyike]

We all know more things are coming up, this whole industry seems to be in the consolidation mode right now. That, is GOOD to know. Some might call that leverage.

I guess I would like to hear your thoughts on why you feel consolidation prospects mean leverage for the pilot group. Consolidation in our industry (and most others as well) has historically meant shrinkage of two (or more) companies into one that is smaller (and ostensibly more efficient) than the sum of the original components. In fact, MBA-types tell us that the very reason to consolidate is to reduce redundancy and overlap and thus become more competitive. You may have a point in that management might want a contract prior to any consolidation efforts, but one would surmise there is only so much they are willing to pay for that convenience, especially if (in their view) consolidation is worth more. Personally, I'm not aware of any mergers (especially in our business) where employee groups realized any substantial benefit, with the exception of those instances where near-dead companies were taken over by stronger ones, and those employees continued to be employed rather than end up on the street.

 

[johnpeace]

I guess I would like to hear your thoughts on..

oh god, really?

 

[General Lee]

I guess I would like to hear your thoughts on why you feel consolidation prospects mean leverage for the pilot group. Consolidation in our industry (and most others as well) has historically meant shrinkage of two (or more) companies into one that is smaller (and ostensibly more efficient) than the sum of the original components. In fact, MBA-types tell us that the very reason to consolidate is to reduce redundancy and overlap and thus become more competitive. You may have a point in that management might want a contract prior to any consolidation efforts, but one would surmise there is only so much they are willing to pay for that convenience, especially if (in their view) consolidation is worth more. Personally, I'm not aware of any mergers (especially in our business) where employee groups realized any substantial benefit, with the exception of those instances where near-dead companies were taken over by stronger ones, and those employees continued to be employed rather than end up on the street.

Leverage for the contracts to be completed sooner, not necessarily leverage for the group as a whole. The big wigs would not want to be "bothered" with contract issues when larger issues are out there, like M/A.

Some mergers have been good for the overall group. Take the DL/NWA merger. Besides fitting like a glove route wise, it has enhanced the balance sheet, and it did lead to a somewhat small recoup of wages taken in BK (a 17% increase over the post BK contract wages for 4 years), hopefully leading to more. The better the revenue picture, the better chance for recapture of lost rates. Last year's profit lead to profit sharing, and my check was over $10K, so that could be considered a good thing for employees, although I would rather see higher payrates instead of the promise of profit sharing. The airline itself has become stronger via some "synergies", like combination of reservation systems, combining ramp personel for the merged company, etc. The company debt has decreased substantially over the last 3 years, from $16 billion a couple years ago to a projected $10 billion in 2013. Employee wise, most of the other groups have voted out unions, which could be construed as good and bad, but they did vote.

Another example is United. They really have a huge opportunity to make a lot of revenue. The problem there is they haven't negotiated with all of their employee groups yet, and they (especially the UAL guys) are really underpaid. The CAL guys aren't that much better, but they are higher than they UAL side. Our CEO made an effort to immediately do a joint contract and work with the different groups. Not everyone was happy, but they made an effort. I see no real effort on the UAL management side yet.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[flyboyike]

Leverage for the contracts to be completed sooner, not necessarily leverage for the group as a whole. The big wigs would not want to be "bothered" with contract issues when larger issues are out there, like M/A.

That was my point, they don't want to be bothered unless that lack of bother costs them too much.

 

[General Lee]

That was my point, they don't want to be bothered unless that lack of bother costs them too much.

Unless they would like us to cooperate with maybe someone new just like we did during the last merger and extremely fast SOC. Just a guess!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Golden Falcon]

It's beating a dead horse.....I saw the beginning of all this in the early '80's, if the Mainline boys had fought to include the regional kids on their seniority list, then none of this "scope" nonsense would have been needed, but they ostracised us, had no use for us (except when they needed a commute)...so the "sins of the fathers are being visited upon his children" so to speak.......and it's haunted the whole industry ever since....

 

[BOX OFFICE]

It's beating a dead horse.....I saw the beginning of all this in the early '80's, if the Mainline boys had fought to include the regional kids on their seniority list, then none of this "scope" nonsense would have been needed, but they ostracised us, had no use for us (except when they needed a commute)...so the "sins of the fathers are being visited upon his children" so to speak.......and it's haunted the whole industry ever since....

Well said. And it continues today, as seen here, where certain mainline pilots continue to piss on the regional pilots. You hear it all the time at DAL, especially among the more junior pilots, blaming the RJ pilots instead of the senior DAL pilots who sold them out. As long as that animosity towards RJ pilots continues, managements divide and conquer strategy will prevail. We need to be negotiating to take all RJ flying back in and staple the RJ pilots to our list. But of course, that will never happen do to the egos on both sides. As always, we are our own worst enemy.

 

[General Lee]

Well said. And it continues today, as seen here, where certain mainline pilots continue to piss on the regional pilots. You hear it all the time at DAL, especially among the more junior pilots, blaming the RJ pilots instead of the senior DAL pilots who sold them out. As long as that animosity towards RJ pilots continues, managements divide and conquer strategy will prevail. We need to be negotiating to take all RJ flying back in and staple the RJ pilots to our list. But of course, that will never happen do to the egos on both sides. As always, we are our own worst enemy.

NOPE. We will NOT spend money on RJs that are currently out there. High gas is taking care of 50 seaters, and 70/76 seaters cannot be recaptured because we don't own most of their planes. (except Comair planes, and some CR7s that are being moved around to Gojets next) Most of us are in favor of not voting for a TA that allows anymore 70/76 seaters, and especially not allowing any 100 seaters. NO WAY. Almost everyone at this level has seen the deterioration of this career thanks to RJs, and lesson learned, no more giveaways. Mistakes were made in the past, but that doesn't mean they have to continue. We still have a concessionary contract, which means there does NOT have to be give and take in this upcoming contract. IF they want 100 seaters, we know who will gladly fly them, mainline pilots. Heck, JB's E190 rates are pretty darn good, and that would have to be included.

The egos on the RJ side were the senior lifers at the regionals who somehow thought they deserved DOH at a Major just because "they were flying Delta passengers too." The egos on the Major side were the guys that didn't want to fly "those little jets." (mainly the guys who allowed it first in the '96 contract) Both of those groups lost out in the end, and it won't get that far again. It just won't.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flyboyike]

We still have a concessionary contract, which means there does NOT have to be give and take in this upcoming contract.

Doesn't have to be and won't be are two different things. As others have stated, scope erosion certainly didn't have to happen, but it did.

 

[Flyer1015]

and staple the RJ pilots to our list.

So a 25 yr ASA Captain should be beneath a 1st year Delta pilot hired last year? I don't think so.

 

[Flyer1015]

Almost everyone at this level has seen the deterioration of this career thanks to RJs

General Warts, let me fix that for you:

Almost everyone at this level has seen the deterioration of this career thanks to short-sighted greedy Delta compadres in the early 90s.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

So a 25 yr ASA Captain should be beneath a 1st year Delta pilot hired last year? I don't think so.

Yes. He keeps his current seat and seniority in it Or he can stay at his dying regional and start over in few years. Option 1 sounds better to me. He chose to stay at a regional after all.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

NOPE. We will NOT spend money on RJs that are currently out there. High gas is taking care of 50 seaters, and 70/76 seaters cannot be recaptured because we don't own most of their planes. (except Comair planes, and some CR7s that are being moved around to Gojets next) Most of us are in favor of not voting for a TA that allows anymore 70/76 seaters, and especially not allowing any 100 seaters. NO WAY. Almost everyone at this level has seen the deterioration of this career thanks to RJs, and lesson learned, no more giveaways. Mistakes were made in the past, but that doesn't mean they have to continue. We still have a concessionary contract, which means there does NOT have to be give and take in this upcoming contract. IF they want 100 seaters, we know who will gladly fly them, mainline pilots. Heck, JB's E190 rates are pretty darn good, and that would have to Ebe included.

The egos on the RJ side were the senior lifers at the regionals who somehow thought they deserved DOH at a Major just because "they were flying Delta passengers too." The egos on the Major side were the guys that didn't want to fly "those little jets." (mainly the guys who allowed it first in the '96 contract) Both of those groups lost out in the end, and it won't get that far again. It just won't.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Good God Lee, WHY must you keep repeating yourself over and over and over. 15000 posts, and all the same. Wait, I know. Because you have no new information. No , there won't be more scope concessions.

Exactly what I said has been in discussions for about 3 years now a he MEC level. It doesn't matter who owns the planes, and you know full well they're all leased anyhow. When SKW bought ASA the leases were transferred, they can easily be transferred back. DAL actually owns ALL of the leases on the 900s and the 200s are as good as beer cans. As usual, Lee, you're talking out of your ass. It's doable unless egomaniacs like yourself who hate everyone "beneath" you continue to make excuses.

 

[General Lee]

Good God Lee, WHY must you keep repeating yourself over and over and over. 15000 posts, and all the same. Wait, I know. Because you have no new information. No , there won't be more scope concessions.

Exactly what I said has been in discussions for about 3 years now a he MEC level. It doesn't matter who owns the planes, and you know full well they're all leased anyhow. When SKW bought ASA the leases were transferred, they can easily be transferred back. DAL actually owns ALL of the leases on the 900s and the 200s are as good as beer cans. As usual, Lee, you're talking out of your ass. It's doable unless egomaniacs like yourself who hate everyone "beneath" you continue to make excuses.

Oh GAWD, here we go again........she's at it again......??? Which MEC are you talking about? The new DPA that may get voted in? Anyway, most of us egomanics WON'T SPEND A DIME on recapturing that. Now, that doesn't mean we won't stop any MORE from being allowed, and certainly no 100 seaters at the regionals, that's a big no no. 50 seaters are going away thanks to high oil, and if the company feels it's necessary to bring the RJ pilots on the list (for future recruitment reasons, like AA proposed with AA Eagle), then FANTASTIC. Bring em onboard. But, I won't give away money when it behooves Delta to do it anyway. They want to know where their future pilots are coming from when retirements do start leaving in droves in about 2-3 years. Get it yet? Delta wants this anyway, why do I need to pay for it? As long as they don't demand DOH, it should be "all good....." So, staple em, that would be FANTASTIC.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

So a 25 yr ASA Captain should be beneath a 1st year Delta pilot hired last year? I don't think so.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? It's called career expectations. Look it up you moron. See Box Office, this is what we are dealing with. These are the guys that RUIN it for everyone else. If Delta will supposedly lose 7600 pilots to age 65 in the next 15 years (stated in an article), most of these guys would be narrowbody Captains or bigger within the next 15 years, but guys like this want MORE.....and that is why this idea could fail. Box, this is your guy.


Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Doesn't have to be and won't be are two different things. As others have stated, scope erosion certainly didn't have to happen, but it did.

A BK judge won't be making the decision here. Nothing is forced upon during negotiations. If we kept scope status quo, that would still not allow anymore 70/76 seaters, and no 100 seaters for DCI (we have the payrates for them at the mainline level if they want them). And as I stated before, things could be in play for possibly more consolidation, and contracts can really get in the way, and I don't think top brass wants that (as stated by some of them). If ALPA brought a TA that had anything close to what you say could happen, it would be voted down in a second, and that is a fact. As I stated before, the majority here are tired of watching this career shrink, and I really wouldn't get your hopes up. Flyer1015 is hoping so terribly, but he will be let down for sure, just like his 10 airline interviews in the Middle East and Sub Saharan Africa a few months ago.


Bye Bye---General Lee