50 seat Jets. Uncertain future?

[General Lee]

General Lee,
When your pilot group took a big paycut and furloughed a bunch did you see anyone else in the industry gloating about it?

Also, do you have any concept of why regional pilots stole a large quantity of your routes in the first place?

Are you kidding me? When DL went BK EVERYONE gloated. People who were turned down took swipes at us, and plenty of RJ pilots did too. It happens all of the time. I also stated I hope that future retirements take up the slack for RJs leaving the fleets.

Do I know why regional pilots stole a large quantity of the routes? You bet I do. It was Fred Greed, a DL honcho at the time who loved FREQUENCY. He really thought businessmen wanted it. Too bad they didn't want it in a small tube. This was mainly done after 9-11, just before and during the BK. Hard to say no to a judge who would give it to them anyway. Today high gas is taking care of most of the 50 seaters. Passengers don't like them, mainline management thinks they are inefficient, and the only people who like them now are lifers at Regionals. Are you one of them?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Unlike you, I'm not stupid enough to waste $10 for an alter-ego.

Hi idiot. If you look at OYS's post numbers, it says over 4100. That means he started it YEARS ago, probably before they charged anything. No wonder Sudan Air turned you down.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[FishandFly]

Are you kidding me? When DL went BK EVERYONE gloated. People who were turned down took swipes at us, and plenty of RJ pilots did too. It happens all of the time. I also stated I hope that future retirements take up the slack for RJs leaving the fleets.

Do I know why regional pilots stole a large quantity of the routes? You bet I do. It was Fred Greed, a DL honcho at the time who loved FREQUENCY. He really thought businessmen wanted it. Too bad they didn't want it in a small tube. This was mainly done after 9-11, just before and during the BK. Hard to say no to a judge who would give it to them anyway. Today high gas is taking care of most of the 50 seaters. Passengers don't like them, mainline management thinks they are inefficient, and the only people who like them now are lifers at Regionals. Are you one of them?


Bye Bye---General Lee

How did it make you feel when people laughed at you and your pilot group because of the actions of a Judge, Delta head honcho, and an industry under the effect of 9/11?

 

[flyboyike]

Are you kidding me? When DL went BK EVERYONE gloated. People who were turned down took swipes at us, and plenty of RJ pilots did too. It happens all of the time. I also stated I hope that future retirements take up the slack for RJs leaving the fleets.

Do I know why regional pilots stole a large quantity of the routes? You bet I do. It was Fred Greed, a DL honcho at the time who loved FREQUENCY. He really thought businessmen wanted it. Too bad they didn't want it in a small tube. This was mainly done after 9-11, just before and during the BK. Hard to say no to a judge who would give it to them anyway. Today high gas is taking care of most of the 50 seaters. Passengers don't like them, mainline management thinks they are inefficient, and the only people who like them now are lifers at Regionals. Are you one of them?


Bye Bye---General Lee

Question: what is the mainline pilot group willing to give up in order to hold the line on scope (like they should)? I don't imagine Anderson & Co will let go of scope relaxation for free.

 

[Flyer1015]

Hi idiot. If you look at OYS's post numbers, it says over 4100. That means he started it YEARS ago, probably before they charged anything. No wonder Sudan Air turned you down.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You mean if you look at YOUR alter ego number. And you don't know a thing about Sudan Air, let alone point Sudan on a map. Scheduling is calling you from Airtran to go from ATL to BMI for an overnight.

 

[johnpeace]

We will hold the line at 76, but we're not taking anything back.

I doubt it.

I think once the retirements start, mgmt is going to delay replacement hiring as a tactic to keep your list moving. You'll all be working a lot, moving up the list. Hiring will underpace attrition until you're all convinced the list movement will never stop and are dreaming about getting off reserve, upgrading, whatever. Then, mgmt will offer you a HUGE raise for <100 seat relief.

At that point, you'd be dumb not to agree...and God forbid your wives ever find out you voted no to a ~85-100% pay raise during an era of unprecedented list movement...you'll NEVER hear the end of that one.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

1000's could retire but if nobody is hired, the bottom guys are still the bottom guys and still on reserve. How would they be thrilled with that?

 

[RJLoser]

I doubt it.

I think once the retirements start, mgmt is going to delay replacement hiring as a tactic to keep your list moving. You'll all be working a lot, moving up the list. Hiring will underpace attrition until you're all convinced the list movement will never stop and are dreaming about getting off reserve, upgrading, whatever. Then, mgmt will offer you a HUGE raise for <100 seat relief.

At that point, you'd be dumb not to agree...and God forbid your wives ever find out you voted no to a ~85-100% pay raise during an era of unprecedented list movement...you'll NEVER hear the end of that one.

This is exactly what I'm afraid of.

 

[flyboyike]

This is exactly what I'm afraid of.

You're not alone.

 

[General Lee]

You mean if you look at YOUR alter ego number. And you don't know a thing about Sudan Air, let alone point Sudan on a map. Scheduling is calling you from Airtran to go from ATL to BMI for an overnight.

Riiiight. Those cold nights at the Super 8 in Hibbing are starting to freeze your brain. No wonder you were turned down at Air Zimbabwe.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I doubt it.

I think once the retirements start, mgmt is going to delay replacement hiring as a tactic to keep your list moving. You'll all be working a lot, moving up the list. Hiring will underpace attrition until you're all convinced the list movement will never stop and are dreaming about getting off reserve, upgrading, whatever. Then, mgmt will offer you a HUGE raise for <100 seat relief.

At that point, you'd be dumb not to agree...and God forbid your wives ever find out you voted no to a ~85-100% pay raise during an era of unprecedented list movement...you'll NEVER hear the end of that one.

There are limits to what we can fly each month. United has no limit, and most of them have 95 hour lines (with credit, not all flying), and 12 days off a month for some lineholders, thanks to their contract. Ours is better.

As far as allowing anything over 76 seats, that is a big NOPE. Everyone still here from both sides have seen what has happened to routes, commuting, etc. That means lots of bad attitudes towards allowing it, and that doesn't look good for your prospects. You say we could be offered a 85%-100% raise? That is what happens normally when you move up aircraft and seats. (probably closer to 50% raise, if you move up category and seat) A new contract is due at the end of the next year, and rumors abound state management wants to conclude it quickly (they already are negotiating right now, including just fixing recovery flying during IOEs, traded for newhires getting a 1 year freeze on their equipment, which wasn't the case before), primarily because there may be more consolidation prospects out there, and nobody wants to be negotiating during that period. The raises will be there regardless. $952 million in bag fees last year means there will be room to negotiate.

What I find amusing is that you would rather wait for 100 seaters at your current airline, than get hired and move up the normal ladder. All you have is "hope" that scope will errode. It just won't, and your 50 seaters will continue to leave thanks to higher gas, leaving your company to maybe turn out like Comair eventually. Those guys thought after 9-11 that they had the World by the ballz. These days, they don't look the same. You may want to throw out some apps someday, unless you are scared to interview like some on here. You are starting to sound grouchy like Joe Merchant, and look how far that has gotten him......nowhere. You can take the Freebrd route and fly CR9s in Da Nang......idiotic.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[johnpeace]

As far as allowing anything over 76 seats, that is a big NOPE.

It's a big NOPE now...my contention is that it won't remain so. The playing field will change in time.

What I find amusing is that you would rather wait for 100 seaters at your current airline, than get hired and move up the normal ladder.

I'm not actually waiting for anything, but don't see myself ever expending any effort to get hired by another airline.

 

[FishandFly]

General Lee, Your non-response must indicate that you cried like a little girl and vowed to spend the rest of your days trying to pay back all the horrible people out there.

One question you might answer. If you and your pilot group were 100% inept in defending scope the first time around why should anyone (us or your management) think you will accomplish anything when pressed this time around?

 

[flyboyike]

One question you might answer. If you and your pilot group were 100% inept in defending scope the first time around why should anyone (us or your management) think you will accomplish anything when pressed this time around?

So far he hasn't even answered my question, which was a lot less threatening, so I'll go ahead and repeat it. What is the mainline pilot group (or at least GL personally) prepared to give up in order to hold the line on scope? Negotiations are a give-and-take game, so if scope is no-go, something else must be not a no-go. What is that something(s)?

 

[General Lee]

General Lee, Your non-response must indicate that you cried like a little girl and vowed to spend the rest of your days trying to pay back all the horrible people out there.

One question you might answer. If you and your pilot group were 100% inept in defending scope the first time around why should anyone (us or your management) think you will accomplish anything when pressed this time around?

Non-response? Riiight. It won't happen. Clear as mud for you? Comprehension was never your strong suit. What you have to remember is that MOST of the people who allowed it in the past are now retired and GONE. What's left is a bunch of pizzed off pilots that have watch 9-11, BK, and RJs ruin this career.

And this was pressed again, in the joint contract with NWA after the merger. RJ Scope did NOT get weaker, so why do you and others think it will again? A BK could change things, but none is in sight at all, and that isn't good news for you LAZY RJ lifers who want handouts. Look at Comair for your answers.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

So far he hasn't even answered my question, which was a lot less threatening, so I'll go ahead and repeat it. What is the mainline pilot group (or at least GL personally) prepared to give up in order to hold the line on scope? Negotiations are a give-and-take game, so if scope is no-go, something else must be not a no-go. What is that something(s)?

Who says you have to GIVE UP anything? We are still on a concessionary contract. We only gained back 17% in the joint contract, from a 47% paycut in BK. Now things are absoulutely better financially (thanks bag fees), and there is less wiggle room on the other side to say they need givebacks. How about we go for more money, better retirement, better work rules, and then leave scope the same? We aren't going to go after planes that are already here (76 seaters), we don't own them. (we only own Comair, and that is slowly going away). We won't use capital for things that are already out there. We just won't allow anything more on scope, and go for the big things like pay. High gas is taking care of scope for us. Higher profits means pay raises and work rule changes. Also, as I stated before, there could be an urgency to get this done since more consolidation may be around the corner. That isn't our urgency, that would be the other side who don't want to negotiate during that time.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

It's a big NOPE now...my contention is that it won't remain so. The playing field will change in time.



I'm not actually waiting for anything, but don't see myself ever expending any effort to get hired by another airline.

The playing field may change, but contractually they can't do anything without our OK. If you think the majority of our pilots would ever allow something like giving bigger RJs away, you're already smoking pot. We have seen what has happened with allowing even 70 or 76 seaters, our 100 seaters (737-200s and DC9-30s) are GONE. It's just not going to happen, the history is still fresh in our minds, and that can't be blanked by more money.

And you are a lazy lifer obviously, so continue not to expend any effort. You probably wouldn't pass an interview anyway. ASA was desperate in your case. Maybe you haven't noticed but ASA has lost a lot of Delta planes, and transferred a bunch to the United side. Your airline is NOT growing on the DL side at all, and Gojet thanks you for it. You need to start worrying more about your own lack of scope.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[79%N1]

So why do you, Great Lee, slam on ASA and Comair....but then applaud GoJet who is doing the same thing you so hate....but even worse, by undercutting companies that at least try to fight for fair wages and better working conditions? Makes no damn sense. You talk out of both sides of your a$$.

 

[General Lee]

So why do you, Great Lee, slam on ASA and Comair....but then applaud GoJet who is doing the same thing you so hate....but even worse, by undercutting companies that at least try to fight for fair wages and better working conditions? Makes no damn sense. You talk out of both sides of your a$$.

Our scope limits the number of planes and size of those planes, it doesn't limit who can fly the feed. You guys have zero scope, so the same planes from your fleets that are owned by DL can go to someone else, like GOjets. That is your fault. But, no additional planes were added, just recycling the remaining 70 seaters. When those 50 seaters hit expensive MX, they will most likely be scrapped, which is what has happened at Comair. Good ole Mike Boyd stated AA Eagle will probably dump 100 or so E135s, E140s, and E145s fairly soon because of the burden they cause on the mainline financials. High gas makes them very expensive and inefficient. What you guys need to do is start throwing apps out all over, get some time in something bigger, and then prepare for eventual hiring in a couple years at the Majors.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[RJLoser]

GL's personal idea of scope went from telling regional pilots to "enjoy the 1900" to "well, we'll keep it at 76 seaters." GL is caving on scope already.

GL...insert fourth grade response here......