200 KIAS below class "B"

[xjcaptain]

Just exempt IFR traffic from the stupid rule. It's real simple.

Or nearly as simple.....keep track of where you're at. It's really not that hard. Remember that RMI thingy...points right at stuff. That and those little numbers (DME) and you know right where you are at. Nuff said.

You'd think that as a bunch of supposed professional pilots, we would not be having a discussion about not being able to keep track of where you are at. Wouldn't fly at the PVT level on a checkride, you'd think that a bunch of ATP's would be able to pull it off using advanced equipment in a crew environment. Pretty embarassing really.

 

[bizjet800]

I was being vectored into TEB one evening from the Wilkes Barre (SP?) arrival. We were at 3000' MSL about 10 out from TEB. I slowed to 200 fearing not only being under class B, but being below 2500' within 4 nm of any airport. ATC asked why I had slowed down and I told them the reasons. He couldn't really say anything but you could hear the attitude in his voice as he had to slow down several aircraft behind us. No doubt had we collided with someone, or anyother problem, I would have been at fault.

 

[BombJet45]

Class B's are not always just "rings." Some have straight lines that make it impossible to determine with your little 10-1a chart, unless you have one of those moving maps that displays airspace.
Regs apart, not all Class B's are the same. Some facilities scream at you if you slow and then some scream at you if you do not slow.
Just like on the highway, going with the flow is the safest thing to do, not the posted 55mph.

 

[PositionandHold]

Or nearly as simple.....keep track of where you're at. It's really not that hard. Remember that RMI thingy...points right at stuff. That and those little numbers (DME) and you know right where you are at. Nuff said.

You'd think that as a bunch of supposed professional pilots, we would not be having a discussion about not being able to keep track of where you are at. Wouldn't fly at the PVT level on a checkride, you'd think that a bunch of ATP's would be able to pull it off using advanced equipment in a crew environment. Pretty embarassing really.

Have you ever flown into LAX?

 

[xjcaptain]

Have you ever flown into LAX?

Yep...What's your point? Obviously some airspace is more complex than others. Doesn't change the requirement to operate safely and legally. Some places just may require more attention.

 

[icefr8dawg]

It is a little complicated, if you're doing the LVZ.3 everyone seems to do 250 until you more or less get close to the airport. The first shelf of the B from the west is a 3000 foot shelf so any time you're at 3000 you're doing 250. Lower than 3000 and you have to use a little common sense. The LVZ.3 asks that you tell them if you can't do 250 as well I believe.

 

[stupidpilot]

My question would be, "What are you doing enroute?" Aren't you studying your destination and the surrounding airspace well prior to arriving?

 

[LJ45]

yep, Atlanta asked one of our pilots flying a Citation the other day for his speed while being vectored on the Mikee arrival. He said 250 and the controller said he should be doing 200. Next time I go in there I will make sure to ask the controllers lots of questions.

This does suck for all the reasons everyone mentioned, plus we didn't ask or want to fly below the class B. ATC put us there!

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Hey LJ that sucks. Sorry for your buddy. Atlanta is probably more responsible for this discussion than any other facility.

Wouldn't it be simple to just publish:

"Cross MIKEE at 200 kts"

This could be published for all arrivals to satellite airports, but the guy in the checkered pants would rather leave confusion in the operations. Nothing like promoting flight safety!

 

[LJ45]

well I found an out...at least for the Learjet 45

(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Turbulent penetration speed is 250 Kt for the Lear 45...It is always bump at those altitudes so it is necessary to fly at that speed.

Gotcha ;-)

 

[LJ45]

If you are bored like I am right now...take a look at the class B chart and imagine taking off out of PDK and be vectored to the west as often happens. There is no way using a radial and DME that you can tell if you are in are out between the 60 and 80 foot levels.

As long as we don't get letters from the FAA I could care less, but if they try to bust people on this we need to get this fixed ASAP.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Why not just do the easy thing and fly at 200 KIAS until clear of all Class B?

If you start at the center, the time difference for 200 and 250 KIAS is a 1.5 minutes. PDX is probably 30 seconds, if that.

Why knowingly violate an FAR for a savings of 30 seconds? That's just lazy.

 

[LJ45]

Why not just do the easy thing and fly at 200 KIAS until clear of all Class B?

If you start at the center, the time difference for 200 and 250 KIAS is a 1.5 minutes. PDX is probably 30 seconds, if that.

Why knowingly violate an FAR for a savings of 30 seconds? That's just lazy.

Why don't you try that for a while and get back to us on how that worked out for you. Do it out of New York, Atlanta, and Los Angles...etc

In a high performance jet of course.

LOL

 

[ksu_aviator]

Been there, done that in a Lear 35, 45 and Citation I(ok not high performance by any standard). Never heard a peep.

Why not answer the question? Why would you knowingly violate and FAR for a minute time savings.

 

[LJ45]

Been there, done that in a Lear 35, 45 and Citation I(ok not high performance by any standard). Never heard a peep.

Why not answer the question? Why would you knowingly violate and FAR for a minute time savings.

Next time you don't see a speed limit sign on the interstate for a few miles, why don't you slow down to 45 mph?

The answer is a jet is made to go fast! ;-)

 

[skydan5]

Otherwise, they can expect me to ask: "Does this take me under Class B" at the busiest time of their day. I am more than willing to demonstrate to the feds that this is unworkable.

I've had NY Center/Approach tell me "you can go as fast as you want....I don't think anyone will say anything." Well, that's his opinion. It will be the next frequency's controller or the FAA guy drinking beer at home while surfing on FlightAware that will nail you.

 

[Mahi]

We only have Nos (or Naco? Government issue anyway) approach plates and IFR low/ high charts. No VFR charts or AFDs. How am I supposed to know when I'm under a shelf? Seriously, I could use some advise here.

 

[ksu_aviator]

We only have Nos (or Naco? Government issue anyway) approach plates and IFR low/ high charts. No VFR charts or AFDs. How am I supposed to know when I'm under a shelf? Seriously, I could use some advise here.

Terminal Area Charts.

 

[Mahi]

Terminal Area Charts.

I don't think you understand. We only carry IFR charts and plates.

If there are guys flying into ATL, TEB, LAX and others under IFR and getting violated for flying +200 under B... I'm concerned. I haven't heard of this till now. But if ATC is starting to enforce this BS, I think it may be time to invest in a handheld GPS.

 

[Frap]

I don't think you understand. We only carry IFR charts and plates.

Pretty sure that applies to most professional aviators.

I believe that KSU does indeed understand and offered some advice you said you needed.

Unless you wanna go the Jepp route, the terminal charts are most likely your best bet. If your company doesn't want to do that, then buy the ones you need for yourself and turn in an expense report. If they won't reimburse you, then it's time to find another gig.