200 KIAS below class "B"

[EdAtTheAirport]

Spoken by a man who has never been to SMO.

 

[veneratio]

F that ********************, u can be going 220, 230 or whatever, when they ask you what's your speed just say 200. Never admit the truth. But to answer the original question, yes, you have to slow down to 200 kts, and no, you do not have to notify ATC. Same as below 10,000, u can go 180 if u want and not 250 and you don't have to notify ATC, if they see a conflict they will either vector you off or ask you to fly a specific speed.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Hey V

u can go 180 if u want and not 250 and you don't have to notify ATC

Thanks for the back up, but you need to look at the JAIKE arrival into TEB. (Not a common destination in the ERJ, but look at it.)

It requires that we advise ATC when slowing below 250. That means that through all of the random vectoring and altitude changes, we have to find the exact spot when we go below Class B.

With all of the traffic to look for, and already monitoring the STAR chart, and the approach plate, we have to pull out, like the New York Sectional to find this magic spot. All the while, looking for Joe Cherokee. Just can't be done. Anyone who says they can is either John Glenn, or they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[PositionandHold]

Without a sectional chart and on vectors, how would you even know if you're under the shelf? I would have figured they'd always have you slow by telling you. That's been my experience, at least.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

You know you're under the shelf by DME. Of course, if you're doing what you're supposed to, your DME is tuned to some other source (either the VOR on the arrival you're flying, or ILS that you're gonna fly). Then again, some Class B's are centered around something that isn't even a navaid.

Once you figure you're kinda close to being underneath, then you gotta find out if you're north of some radial. Again, the NAV equipment is setup for your arrival or your approach, rather than the 312 radial of the primary airport, which you're not going to. And that's IF the Class B is based off of a navaid. Some are centered around an airport (EWR?); how do I DME Newark Airport?

And then there are the Class B's that use highways or some other criteria to divide the sections.

And no, Position, ATC has no responsibility to tell you you're under Class B. You must be flying around MSP Class B, or somewhere nice. As far as the law goes, it's our job to know when we're underneath -- somehow.

 

[Taildraggaah]

I usually keep the jepp 10-1a class B diagram out with the arrival/departure plates. Also you can "build" the ring around the airport or VOR with some FMS systems...

 

[igneousy2]

Some of you have obviouslly not dealt with this much. It is not that simple unless you have good local knowledge, otherwise it becomes a huge distraction.

1. Most of the time I have encountered this the Navaid that the Class B is predicated on is either A...hard to determine because of the complexit compressed onto a small chart, B. based on a NavAid that isn't on the arrival there are a finite number of VOR receivers on any airplane. C. Based on Some VFR margin like a shoreline or a river - is radar now a considered a NavAid?

2. The 10-1 chart for these airports are not with the approach charts. OAK/SJC= SFO, LGB/ONT/SNA=LAX.

We have enough to do in the terminal area as it is. If we are on an IFR clearence then this speed should not apply.

If someone can find out how to go about making an NPRM I will support it.

How about just eliminating all this wedding cake crap and just push the Class B to the ground. If you want to be anywhere near the busier Class B's especially New York, NorCal and SoCal, and Chicago - you gotta talk to somebody. There are so many busy airports in such a close proximity with jet traffic constantly in and out of these areas it's ridicules you can skirt by without talking to anyone. If you are too afraid to talk to anyone in these areas then you shouldn't be within 50 miles of any of these airports.

Later

 

[Taildraggaah]

Some of you have obviouslly not dealt with this much. It is not that simple unless you have good local knowledge, otherwise it becomes a huge distraction.

1. Most of the time I have encountered this the Navaid that the Class B is predicated on is either A...hard to determine because of the complexit compressed onto a small chart, B. based on a NavAid that isn't on the arrival there are a finite number of VOR receivers on any airplane. C. Based on Some VFR margin like a shoreline or a river - is radar now a considered a NavAid?

2. The 10-1 chart for these airports are not with the approach charts. OAK/SJC= SFO, LGB/ONT/SNA=LAX.

We have enough to do in the terminal area as it is. If we are on an IFR clearence then this speed should not apply.

If someone can find out how to go about making an NPRM I will support it.

How about just eliminating all this wedding cake crap and just push the Class B to the ground. If you want to be anywhere near the busier Class B's especially New York, NorCal and SoCal, and Chicago - you gotta talk to somebody. There are so many busy airports in such a close proximity with jet traffic constantly in and out of these areas it's ridicules you can skirt by without talking to anyone. If you are too afraid to talk to anyone in these areas then you shouldn't be within 50 miles of any of these airports.

Later

well excuse me with your vast hundred hours in your 172. Obviously you don't know how to find charts or maybe you dont carry them...and any private pilot can look at a sectional and figure out where the class B is for a given area, right?

FAR 11.23 says, "The Administrator initiates rulemaking procedure on his own motion. However, in doing so, he considers the recommendations of other agencies of the United States and the petitions of other interested persons." Once the Administrator initiates the procedure, creating a new rule is basically a three-phase project, which is spelled out in FAR Part 11. Phase I may include public hearings, conducting studies, reviewing already submitted petitions, and hosting meetings.

At any rate I agree about dropping the floor to the ground, or eliminating the rule altogether...

 

[igneousy2]

well excuse me with your vast hundred hours in your 172. Obviously you don't know how to find charts or maybe you dont carry them...and any private pilot can look at a sectional and figure out where the class B is for a given area, right?

FAR 11.23 says, "The Administrator initiates rulemaking procedure on his own motion. However, in doing so, he considers the recommendations of other agencies of the United States and the petitions of other interested persons." Once the Administrator initiates the procedure, creating a new rule is basically a three-phase project, which is spelled out in FAR Part 11. Phase I may include public hearings, conducting studies, reviewing already submitted petitions, and hosting meetings.

At any rate I agree about dropping the floor to the ground, or eliminating the rule altogether...

It says 100+...don't feel the need to get into a pissing contest but rest assured it is well over 100 hours.

Sectional chart - now I gotta look at a sectional chart to - I have higher priority stuff going on like looking out for traffic and setting up for the approach.

Just exempt IFR traffic from the stupid rule. It's real simple.


Later

 

[Amish RakeFight]

You know you're under the shelf by DME. Of course, if you're doing what you're supposed to, your DME is tuned to some other source (either the VOR on the arrival you're flying, or ILS that you're gonna fly). Then again, some Class B's are centered around something that isn't even a navaid.

Once you figure you're kinda close to being underneath, then you gotta find out if you're north of some radial. Again, the NAV equipment is setup for your arrival or your approach, rather than the 312 radial of the primary airport, which you're not going to. And that's IF the Class B is based off of a navaid. Some are centered around an airport (EWR?); how do I DME Newark Airport?

And then there are the Class B's that use highways or some other criteria to divide the sections.

And no, Position, ATC has no responsibility to tell you you're under Class B. You must be flying around MSP Class B, or somewhere nice. As far as the law goes, it's our job to know when we're underneath -- somehow.

Technically, I believe when operating in class B airspace, ATC is required to inform the pilot if vectoring will take them outside of it.