2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[JungleJett]

Nice, answer a question with a question.

It is clear what happened on the civilian side since we have tapes and radar tracks. He clearly entered into a known active MOA and did NOT talk to the controlling agency. Poor judgement.

We DO NOT know exactly what the military guy did (other than what we see on the radar track which does not show an altitude readout). Some of the fighter folks here have stated that is is NOT uncommon to shadow the traffic to see what its plans are. Did that happen here, I (or you) do not know. What some PA turd said what happened means little...nope..nothing to me. I would like to hear from the pilot involved and those in his flight...and that will more than likely never happen.

Did the Viper guy exercise sound judgement..neither of us know. Did the guys who CLEARLY (we have undeniable proof of their actions) entered an active MOA without contacting the controlling agency exercise sound judgment, evidence shows that they did not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And guess what dude, the CIV guys will continue to fly into hot MOA's

That is what I said. Comprehension?

So if you know that CIV guys use poor judgement and fly into hot MOA's... why do you get upset and whine when they do? It is joint airspace...

IOW why do you get yourself all up in a hissey fit (Danica style?) If MOA are joint use and CIV guys do this from time to time.. why are you surprised? Are you taking this personally?

(happened to me on multiple occasions where we had to knock off our entire fight and waste thousands of taxpayer dollars).

I never thought of tactical pilots as custodians of the taxpayers dollars. Is that a mission planning factor? Or have you been watching Top Gun again... you know when Maverick gets told he doesn't own that plane the taxpayers do....??

So it will happen again - from the civ side as well. What have they learned? Absolutely nothing obviously.

And yet you cant even admit that the F-16 pilot here used poor judgement. The reprimand doesn't even help your thinking.....

It is clear what happened on the civilian side since we have tapes and radar tracks. He clearly entered into a known active MOA and did NOT talk to the controlling agency. Poor judgement.

Fair enough... agreed. I think plenty of CIV pilots now know to stay away from MOAs. Now lets talk about the MIL guys.....

We DO NOT know exactly what the military guy did (other than what we see on the radar track which does not show an altitude readout).

I think we know what he did..... let's not be foolish here.. causing an RA and sending VFR traffic into IFR airspace... yea.. that is great "viper" judgement...

Some of the fighter folks here have stated that is is NOT uncommon to shadow the traffic to see what its plans are. Did that happen here, I (or you) do not know. What some PA turd said what happened means little...nope..nothing to me. I would like to hear from the pilot involved and those in his flight...and that will more than likely never happen.

Let's be real... between watching the video and the the reprimand, the F-16 pilot exercise poor judgement.

I have yet to hear a MIL guy on this board address this issue with integrity... who is flying our airplanes out there anyway? Cool headed prfoessionals or .......??

Did the Viper guy exercise sound judgement..neither of us know.

(don't tell anyone... but the F16 pilot was reprimanded)

Did the guys who CLEARLY (we have undeniable proof of their actions) entered an active MOA without contacting the controlling agency exercise sound judgment, evidence shows that they did not.

Unbelievable.....

 

[JungleJett]

Rez,

Again, can you tell me with absolute certainty what was going on in the cockpit of that Viper? Can you? Can you tell by looking at the radar track what his distance and relative altitude was when the "education" took place?

Can you also tell me what EXACTLY the "reprimand" consisted of and if it indeed happened?

Can you tell me that you would do EXACTLY what these civilian pilots did if you were able too? If so, put out a NOTAM when you fly so we all know to stay clear of you while you exercise "sound judgment."

I am not a fighter pilot and do not know how they operate while in a MOA, plenty here and enlightened me as to the SOP while in a MOA and that MOA is penetrated by a civilian AC. I have no problems with what they would do to insure both their SAFETY and MINE! I would rather them knock it off, monitor my activities and make sure I was well clear before going to back to work. But then again, I would NEVER transit an active MOA without talking to the controlling agency and getting a good feeling that I could do it safely and with minimum impact on the military operations. While I was a student pilot, we had a MOA just north of our airport that consumed a great deal of airspace. Cutting a corner through would sometimes save us 45 minutes (small Cessna). On occasion, I would ask as the status of the MOA and if it was hot, I would go around or they would offer some vectors through it to deconflict with operations. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it did not. No big deal. Communication is the key...

I will answer this question and will correct your spelling as well:

"I have yet to hear a MIL guy on this board address this issue with integrity... who is flying our airplanes out there anyway? Cool headed professionals or .......??"

Plenty here have attempted to explain what MIGHT have happened and have questioned the pilots motives. You simply choose to ignore that. My question would be to you "Who is out there flying around civilian airplanes when their judgment is clearly questionable." Your 40 hours of flight time may have gotten you a license...but it clearly has not taught you judgment.

 

[cjdriver]

I think it's reasonable to say from looking at the radar track that the fighter aggressively turned and pursued the civ. This is irrefutable. This is much poorer judgement being displayed than the civ demonstrated. I doubt that the majority of mil pilot's have this poor judgement. I would hope this guy is an anomaly and is mitigated as a risk factor in the system.

 

[JungleJett]

CJ...what was his altitude?

 

[cjdriver]

I could look again at the radar track and tell you, but my guess is it was 17500 or 16500 since his RA forced him into positive control airspace. His relative altitude to the 16 was within a few hundred feet as evidenced by the RA itself. My point was that a 180 degree turn towards the ga and the resultant RA demonstrates an aggressive and impulsive move on the part of the 16. Now I will be honest with you and say that if I was 20 something in a 16 and thought I could turn on a corp jet without him knowing it and lock him up with my targeting radar, I would have been tempted. It would have been the wrong thing to do though, wouldn't you agree?

 

[JungleJett]

I was asking what the Vipers altitude was...not the GA guy.

 

[cjdriver]

It would have to be within a few hundred feet to generate an RA, and the pilot is heard reporting the 16 came within a couple hundred feet. That would be credible, coming from someone who flies a jet aircraft and is dependent on their ability to judge distances the way we do everyday, would it not?

 

[KCPilot]

So what if the Viper intercepted the Civ guy. In his shoes I'd probably do the same to make sure he exited the area without incident.

Bottom line, when a MOA is active, don't fly into it. You don't know what is going on and you'll get yourself killed and most likely someone else too.

BTW- do any of you civ guys have 121.5 tuned up in your second radio? If not you should!

 

[JungleJett]

It would have to be within a few hundred feet to generate an RA, and the pilot is heard reporting the 16 came within a couple hundred feet. That would be credible, coming from someone who flies a jet aircraft and is dependent on their ability to judge distances the way we do everyday, would it not?

But you do not know for sure right? And a pilot who is NOT used to airplanes being within a 1000 feet of them is not going to be great with distances. It seems as their is a belief that the Viper did NOT come within 600 feet of him..and the GA pilot said he was 10 feet away..so no, I do not trust what the GA said.

Also, TCAS is based on rate of closure as well relative altitude.

 

[bagasticks]

rezolution. . . . dude. . . . . . .you are lost like a ball in tall weeds. . . i hope you are NOTAM'd when u fly. .

 

[Scrapdog]

It would have to be within a few hundred feet to generate an RA, and the pilot is heard reporting the 16 came within a couple hundred feet. That would be credible, coming from someone who flies a jet aircraft and is dependent on their ability to judge distances the way we do everyday, would it not?

I can garauntee you the GA guy has no clue on the distances vs. other airplanes. One, he's never flown close formation with an F-16 nor any other aircraft. Two, in order for us fighter guys to get our eyes caged on range, we do ranging exercises all the time...i.e. it takes practice. And that's against another airplane that's the exact same type.

This GA clown almost certainly had no idea if the F-16 was 1000 feet or 100 feet. He doesn't know when the canopy starts to break out or what range the intake takes shape (all cues for us to base our range). And his perception would tie in perfectly with his judgement to fly into a hot MOA in the first place - sub par.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I can garauntee you the GA guy has no clue on the distances vs. other airplanes. One, he's never flown close formation with an F-16 nor any other aircraft. Two, in order for us fighter guys to get our eyes caged on range, we do ranging exercises all the time...i.e. it takes practice. And that's against another airplane that's the exact same type.

This GA clown almost certainly had no idea if the F-16 was 1000 feet or 100 feet. He doesn't know when the canopy starts to break out or what range the intake takes shape (all cues for us to base our range). And his perception would tie in perfectly with his judgement to fly into a hot MOA in the first place - sub par.

And he shouldn't be expected too.....

However, he should expect not to be pushed into Class A airspace...with a TCAS RA....


Why would a MIL pilot fly like that?

 

[Scrapdog]

And he shouldn't be expected too.....

However, he should expect not to be pushed into Class A airspace...with a TCAS RA....


Why would a MIL pilot fly like that?

Because he was responding to a GA pilot flying in the middle of his fight when the GA pilot knew perfectly well it was a hot MOA.

It's not rocket science, if there are 4 or 8 high speed military jets maneuvering in relation to each other, they're not looking for a 250 knot GA airplane. Don't go in there, for safety's sake alone, much less poor judgement.

 

[Mud Eagle]

Why would a MIL pilot fly like that?

Fighter guys don't use TCAS, nor are they required to respond to RAs.

Remember that question I asked a few pages ago about looking for a reference?

That's because I didn't f*cking know the answer. The Viper guy probably didn't either.