Yeah? Really? What exactly happened to him? You sure his reprimand wasn't the Ops-O telling him at the bar "don't do that again?" Maybe just an effort to give the media something to shut them up?
That's a rhetorical question by the way.
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)
- Thread starter JungleJett
- Start date
- Watchers 29
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Yeah? Really? What exactly happened to him? You sure his reprimand wasn't the Ops-O telling him at the bar "don't do that again?" Maybe just an effort to give the media something to shut them up?
That's a rhetorical question by the way.
When the USAF weapons school brings in 30+ a/c in the form of B-1's, C-17's, B-52's, A-10's, 15's, 16's, 18's, and 22's... all for a Weapons School phase in Nellis, and you launch ALL of those assets on an LFE in order to support ONE syllabus hop for 2 pilots... and you add all the costs of support to not only get those assets there, but the support equipment, personnel, fuel, etc.... yes it gets into the millions per ex. You work with CNATRA. WHOOOOOOOOOO.....
AIR2MUD. Best post ever on this board. This just gets so entertaining, and is an argument that will never die. This thread will taper off, and in 3 months it'll happen again. We'll all say the same sh!t, and the cycle will repeat!
Last edited:
erj/Rez: a while back, while in a local MOA, I broke off what I was doing when civilian VFR traffic got into my flight path. I maneuvered to avoid, but went to a position so that I could monitor him and check where he was going and what altitude he was at. Did I "intercept" him? No, I just stumbled across him. And rather than turn away and go home like a "crybaby", I followed him to ensure I had separation. Once that was ensured, I turned back toward the meat of my MOA, and resumed my profile. Had he seen me, I might be the one in the press, despite remaining at least 2000'-3000' away from him.
And no one is questioning your right to fly through there. But due to the supposed mutual respect we pilots show each other, some here are a bit incredulous at your "in your face" and caustic responses. Yes, you are legal. Have at it! No one has said otherwise. However, your fellow aviators are asking that you try another option. And if you have an operational reason to be there, then please advise ATC.
The commercial-rated pilot in the Luke MOA incident would have added about 15 air-miles to his trip had he avoided the MOA as he departed Scottsdale. Irrespective of his large annual income and the fact you could argue that the extra fuel was inconsequential, was this a wise idea? Maybe I'm off base. I've never been a CFI, and maybe there's a disparity between what private pilots are taught is wise, and what I think they are being taught.
On a final note: I have an ejection seat: should we "meet" in the MOA, I might survive. However, it is unlikely all of us will.
And no one is questioning your right to fly through there. But due to the supposed mutual respect we pilots show each other, some here are a bit incredulous at your "in your face" and caustic responses. Yes, you are legal. Have at it! No one has said otherwise. However, your fellow aviators are asking that you try another option. And if you have an operational reason to be there, then please advise ATC.
The commercial-rated pilot in the Luke MOA incident would have added about 15 air-miles to his trip had he avoided the MOA as he departed Scottsdale. Irrespective of his large annual income and the fact you could argue that the extra fuel was inconsequential, was this a wise idea? Maybe I'm off base. I've never been a CFI, and maybe there's a disparity between what private pilots are taught is wise, and what I think they are being taught.
On a final note: I have an ejection seat: should we "meet" in the MOA, I might survive. However, it is unlikely all of us will.
Last edited:
Mud Eagle
Aviator
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 516
Can you provide an exact reference for that, please?
I've been trying to find it, but can't locate anything that says an RA must be acted upon. The closest I've found is a reference in the controller section that says they should not issue directions that counter or interfere with a RA.
Please, please, PLEASE tell me you're kidding. All part 121/135 carriers have verbage in their FOMs that state this. In that world FOM=regulations.
Remember that accident in Europe a few years ago where two cargo aircraft had a midair because they were trying to follow an ATC directive AGAINST what the TCAS was telling them?
If you have an RA, you follow it UNLESS, and only unless you have the traffic in sight (and if you are behind, you are NOT in sight). Maneuvering against an RA is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Its part of the restrictions and limitations that are part and parcel with the STC that accompanies most, if not all, TCAS installations.
If you get an RA, and the little red box is under your airplane, with a -2, you better believe the RA will be followed.
You can see aircraft leave the area just as well from 2 miles away as you can 500 feet away. They don't need your "escort" out of the area. It's NOT a military reservation.
Go about your business, and we'll go about ours. Thanks for your service.
Nu
Excerpt from Advisory Circular 120-55B:
11. TCAS OPERATIONAL USE.
a. General.
Operationally, those skills addressed and the guidance provided on TCAS training
in paragraph 9 should be followed and implemented by each operator electing to use TCAS II and
TCAS is intended to serve as a backup to visual collision avoidance,
application of right-of-way rules, and air traffic separation service. For TCAS to work as designed,
Respond to TAs by attempting to establish visual contact with the intruder aircraft and
other aircraft which may be in the vicinity. Coordinate to the degree possible with other
When an RA occurs, the PF should respond immediately by direct attention to RA
displays and maneuver as indicated, unless doing so would jeopardize the safe operation of the flight
The traffic may also be equipped with TCAS and it may maneuver in response to an
RA that has been coordinated with your own TCAS.
The traffic acquired visually may not be the same traffic causing the RA.
(c)
Visual perception of the encounter may be misleading. Unless it is unequivocally
clear that the target acquired visually is the one generating the RA and there are no complicating
Satisfy RAs by disconnecting the autopilot, if necessary, using prompt, positive control
inputs in the direction and with the magnitude TCAS advises. To achieve the required vertical rate
°
250 KIAS below 10,000 feet 4
°
APPROACH below 200 KIAS 5
° to 7°
(a)
On aircraft with pitch guidance for TCAS RA displays, follow the RA pitch
command for initial, increase, and weakening RAs.
For TCAS to provide safe vertical separation, initial vertical speed response is
expected within 5 seconds of when the RA is first displayed. Excursions from assigned altitude,
Respond immediately to any “increase” or “reversal” RA maneuver advisories. Initial
vertical speed response to an increase or reversal RA is expected by TCAS within 2 1/2 seconds after
The PNF should advise the PF on the progress of achieving the vertical rates commanded
by TCAS. The PNF and any on-board observers will assist in the visual search for the intruder and
If an initial corrective RA is downgraded or weakened, such as a “climb” RA
downgraded to a “do not descend” RA, pilots should respond to the weakening RA and adjust the
Excessive responses to TCAS RAs are inappropriate and may increase interference with
other traffic and result in additional RAs.
in paragraph 9 should be followed and implemented by each operator electing to use TCAS II and
apply the appropriate 14 CFR.
b. Pilot Responsibilities.
b. Pilot Responsibilities.
TCAS is intended to serve as a backup to visual collision avoidance,
application of right-of-way rules, and air traffic separation service. For TCAS to work as designed,
immediate and correct crew response to TCAS advisories is essential. Delayed crew response or
reluctance of a flightcrew to adjust the aircraft’s flight path as advised by TCAS due to Air Traffic
Control (ATC) clearance provisions, fear of later FAA scrutiny, or other factors could significantly
decrease or negate the protection afforded by TCAS. Flightcrews are expected to respond to TCAS
in accordance with the following guidelines when responding to alerts:
(1)
reluctance of a flightcrew to adjust the aircraft’s flight path as advised by TCAS due to Air Traffic
Control (ATC) clearance provisions, fear of later FAA scrutiny, or other factors could significantly
decrease or negate the protection afforded by TCAS. Flightcrews are expected to respond to TCAS
in accordance with the following guidelines when responding to alerts:
(1)
Respond to TAs by attempting to establish visual contact with the intruder aircraft and
other aircraft which may be in the vicinity. Coordinate to the degree possible with other
crewmembers to assist in searching for traffic. Do not deviate from an assigned clearance based only
on TA information. For any traffic that is acquired visually, continue to maintain or attain safe
separation in accordance with current regulations and good operating practices.
(2)
on TA information. For any traffic that is acquired visually, continue to maintain or attain safe
separation in accordance with current regulations and good operating practices.
(2)
When an RA occurs, the PF should respond immediately by direct attention to RA
displays and maneuver as indicated, unless doing so would jeopardize the safe operation of the flight
or the flightcrew can assure separation with the help of definitive visual acquisition of the aircraft
causing the RA. By not responding to an RA, the flightcrew effectively takes responsibility for
achieving safe separation. In so choosing, the following cautions should be considered:
(a)
causing the RA. By not responding to an RA, the flightcrew effectively takes responsibility for
achieving safe separation. In so choosing, the following cautions should be considered:
(a)
The traffic may also be equipped with TCAS and it may maneuver in response to an
RA that has been coordinated with your own TCAS.
(b)
The traffic acquired visually may not be the same traffic causing the RA.
(c)
Visual perception of the encounter may be misleading. Unless it is unequivocally
clear that the target acquired visually is the one generating the RA and there are no complicating
circumstances, the pilot’s instinctive reaction should always be to respond to RAs in the direction
and to the degree displayed.
AC 120-55B 10/22/01
Page 8 Par 11
(3)
and to the degree displayed.
AC 120-55B 10/22/01
Page 8 Par 11
(3)
Satisfy RAs by disconnecting the autopilot, if necessary, using prompt, positive control
inputs in the direction and with the magnitude TCAS advises. To achieve the required vertical rate
(normally 1,500 feet per minute (fpm) climb or descent), first adjust the aircraft’s pitch using the
suggested guidelines shown in the table below. Then refer to the vertical speed indicator (VSI) and
make all necessary pitch adjustments to place the VSI in the green arc.
SPEED PITCH ADJUSTMENT
.80 MACH 2
suggested guidelines shown in the table below. Then refer to the vertical speed indicator (VSI) and
make all necessary pitch adjustments to place the VSI in the green arc.
SPEED PITCH ADJUSTMENT
.80 MACH 2
°
250 KIAS below 10,000 feet 4
°
APPROACH below 200 KIAS 5
° to 7°
(a)
On aircraft with pitch guidance for TCAS RA displays, follow the RA pitch
command for initial, increase, and weakening RAs.
(b)
For TCAS to provide safe vertical separation, initial vertical speed response is
expected within 5 seconds of when the RA is first displayed. Excursions from assigned altitude,
when responding to an RA, typically should be no more than 300 to 500 feet to satisfy the conflict.
Vertical speed responses should be made to avoid red arcs or outlined pitch avoidance areas and, if
applicable, to accurately fly to the green arc or outlined pitch guidance area.
(4)
Vertical speed responses should be made to avoid red arcs or outlined pitch avoidance areas and, if
applicable, to accurately fly to the green arc or outlined pitch guidance area.
(4)
Respond immediately to any “increase” or “reversal” RA maneuver advisories. Initial
vertical speed response to an increase or reversal RA is expected by TCAS within 2 1/2 seconds after
issuance of the advisory. Again, avoid red arcs or outlined pitch avoidance areas and fly to the green
arc or outlined pitch guidance area.
(5)
arc or outlined pitch guidance area.
(5)
The PNF should advise the PF on the progress of achieving the vertical rates commanded
by TCAS. The PNF and any on-board observers will assist in the visual search for the intruder and
continue to cross-check the TCAS displayed information with other available traffic information to
ensure the RA response is being flown correctly.
(6)
ensure the RA response is being flown correctly.
(6)
If an initial corrective RA is downgraded or weakened, such as a “climb” RA
downgraded to a “do not descend” RA, pilots should respond to the weakening RA and adjust the
aircraft’s vertical speed accordingly, but still keep the needle or pitch guidance symbol out of the red
arc or outlined pitch avoidance area. Pilots are reminded that attention to the RA display and prompt
reaction to the weakened RA will minimize altitude excursions and potential disruptions to ATC.
This will allow for proper TCAS-to-TCAS resolution of encounters and reduce the probability of
additional RAs against the intruder or other traffic.
(7)
arc or outlined pitch avoidance area. Pilots are reminded that attention to the RA display and prompt
reaction to the weakened RA will minimize altitude excursions and potential disruptions to ATC.
This will allow for proper TCAS-to-TCAS resolution of encounters and reduce the probability of
additional RAs against the intruder or other traffic.
(7)
Excessive responses to TCAS RAs are inappropriate and may increase interference with
other traffic and result in additional RAs.
I apologize for the poor formatting of the previous post, I'm not a uber computer geek.
That Advisory Circular is titled 'Air Carrier Operational Approval and Use of TCAS', and is the basis for all the training and documentation that is put into Part 121 FOMs, as well as much of what we corporate/Part 135 bubbas learn at the Part 142 schools, etc.
For those who are unaware, basically, TCAS I is only capable of providing Traffic Advisories and is required in all aircraft 10 to 30 seats, though TCAS II may be installed to meet the requirement.
TCAS II provides Traffic Advisories (TAs) and Resolution Advisories (RAs), and is required in aircraft 30 seats or more and/or weigh in excess of 33,000 pounds that fly intrenationally.
That being said, a lot of aircraft have these systems on them now, and they are a great situational awareness tool and can save your bacon.
One of our pilots had a RA in the New York TRACON area right after takeoff for a Cessna 172 that had wandered into the class D airspace without talking to anyone. Our Challenger has the RA symbology on the HUD, so both he and the PNF (Pilot Not Flying) were able to stay noggin's up to scan for the dude visually up AND the Pilot Flying was able to respond to the RA by putting the little airplane thingy in the little safe box thingy.
But I digress.
There is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides of the fence, so let's lighten up, learn from each other, and keep it safe.
Big picture in this latest incident is that nobody so much as traded paint and everyone went home.
Stop concentrating on who schwacked who's pee-pee and go have a beer.
That Advisory Circular is titled 'Air Carrier Operational Approval and Use of TCAS', and is the basis for all the training and documentation that is put into Part 121 FOMs, as well as much of what we corporate/Part 135 bubbas learn at the Part 142 schools, etc.
For those who are unaware, basically, TCAS I is only capable of providing Traffic Advisories and is required in all aircraft 10 to 30 seats, though TCAS II may be installed to meet the requirement.
TCAS II provides Traffic Advisories (TAs) and Resolution Advisories (RAs), and is required in aircraft 30 seats or more and/or weigh in excess of 33,000 pounds that fly intrenationally.
That being said, a lot of aircraft have these systems on them now, and they are a great situational awareness tool and can save your bacon.
One of our pilots had a RA in the New York TRACON area right after takeoff for a Cessna 172 that had wandered into the class D airspace without talking to anyone. Our Challenger has the RA symbology on the HUD, so both he and the PNF (Pilot Not Flying) were able to stay noggin's up to scan for the dude visually up AND the Pilot Flying was able to respond to the RA by putting the little airplane thingy in the little safe box thingy.
But I digress.
There is a lot of misunderstanding on both sides of the fence, so let's lighten up, learn from each other, and keep it safe.
Big picture in this latest incident is that nobody so much as traded paint and everyone went home.
Stop concentrating on who schwacked who's pee-pee and go have a beer.
erj-145mech
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2002
- Posts
- 1,071
What I do with the Admirals staff is so far over your insignificant head, that it dwarfs what ever you think you do into oblivion.
Oh, I get it now, your screen name comes from inSIGnificant!
JungleJett
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2004
- Posts
- 1,111
Whoa whoa whoa. I can't BELIEVE you could not mention and therefore slight the most important weapons systems in the inventory....
....Predators/Reapers, and the AOC.
I am convinced that the Air Force is attempting to morph itself into something every Gen-Y teenager would beg borrow and steal to be a part of. I'm not talking about being a go-fast F-22 pilot; no no no!
I'm talking about the real-life video game that is the equivilent of microsoft flight sim with Hellfires (Predator Porn) or Command and Conquer (the AOC).
http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/04/airforce_uav_pilots_040108w/
"Gen. John Corley, head of Air Combat Command, sees the advantage of first-assignment pilots staying with UAVs and related staff positions for their entire careers. In this scenario, a first-assignment Predator pilot could go to Reapers on his second tour and then fill a staff position before coming back to UAVs as a major. The pilots could also fill air liaison officer slots with Army units and work at air operations centers, the same as other pilots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8-kNPKNCtg
Under Moseley’s or Corley’s scenario, UAV pilots would be rated officers who went through the same yearlong specialized undergraduate pilot training course as pilots heading other aircraft."
Emphasis added above is mine. I understand they are going to create a weapons school for these things too. SIGN ME UP!
When I went into the military I would have LAUGHED if some guy had laid out the career track posted above. Then I would have signed up to be an 0311 in the Marines - probably to be schwacked in a blue-on-blue by a Reaper.
If our civilian brethren think they have to worry about F-15s/16s/18s/22s, they better start worrying about a platform without a live person with a natural self-preservation instinct on board!
For the civvies out there - one more reason to be REAL cautious around restricted areas. Not only are the Predators/Reapers out and about, but the Army/Marines are launching their own UAVs too.
Another thing about Restricted areas - we are often running around in there without our lights on at night. Just another word to the wise.
Y'all be careful out there...especially if you're in the Air Force and are filling out a preference worksheet!
Mud Eagle
Aviator
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 516
No, I'm not kidding.
I'm looking for an actual, specific reference.
Are Advisory Circulars regulatory in nature (as in 'shall', 'will', and 'must' verbage)?
Last edited:
JungleJett
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2004
- Posts
- 1,111
As unfortunate as it may be, most ground commanders are screaming for more control and more access to UAV's....not much yelling about more F-22's.
But that Pred's to Raptors back to Preds...typical AF mentality. Take away experience from one place, put it in some random place and then jam back to the place you started..and expect great things.
Remember, the "fighter mafia" is gone.....lets see what the future brings to our beloved force.
But that Pred's to Raptors back to Preds...typical AF mentality. Take away experience from one place, put it in some random place and then jam back to the place you started..and expect great things.
Remember, the "fighter mafia" is gone.....lets see what the future brings to our beloved force.
The short answer is yes.
The FAA is similar to the Air Force in the 'obscure document used to hang you with' department. An Advisory circular is considered guidance, kind of like our doctrine manuals and whatnot. What happens when you go out and do something that doesn't fall in line with the guidance?
WHACK!
So, yes, these ACs are used to beef up and expand upon the regs. You can decide not to follow them right up to the point where you get caught.
JJ,
Those become effective once the TCAS is installed in the aircraft.
As part of any TCAS installation, there is an supplemental type certificate (STC) for the equipment. As part of the equipment, there is a Approved Flight Manual Supplement. As part of the supplement, there are new limitations, which include the TCAS operating restrictions which I already outlined: An RA MUST be followed, and maneuvers opposite to an RA are prohibited.
Once in the AFM, those limitations become part of the aircraft limitations, which everyone must adhere to, part 91, 135, 121, it doesn't matter.
And by the way, for 135/121 operators, the FOM is the same as the FARs. Adherance is mandatory unless it's an emergency. Compliance with the FOM is the same as the FARs.
Nu
highsky
Sky Child
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2006
- Posts
- 178
Well said.
USMCAirWinger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2004
- Posts
- 228
Technique only!!!!
I flew a 1 v 2 against two T-38Cs out of Moody a few years back. It was supposed to be a 2 v 2, but the lead fell out, so I launched and met up with them in the area (we were operating out of the Savannah CRTC).
I was able to get some intel from a buddy who was an instructor there as to their interflight freq. I also knew the 38Cs have a similar-to-TCAS system that they would be coordinating against me with.
First set was no surprise. No matter what I did - and especially with airspace limitations - they hawked me and performed a flawless intercept.
Second set, I seemed to have some 'intermittant issues' with my IFF (transponder to civilians) that allowed me to at least get to the merge before they picked me up - I got a Fox Two kill in before the other guy schwacked me.
Third set, more 'intermittant IFF' issues until about 10 miles (according to their bogey calls on me) when all of a sudden my IFF 'stopped working'. What a shame. I turned the volume down on the radio that was set to their interflight freq to keep things a bit more fair. Was able to make it to the merge, get a guns kill from below on the lead and a fox two on the second guy.
Not a bad day for a single A-10!
McGillicutty
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2006
- Posts
- 151
I don't think I've seen a single advocate of VFR civilian traffic explain why it's a GOOD idea to fly through a MOA, yet. Like highsky, I used to be a CFI in a former life and looking back at it, I was such a fool to transition MOAs.
But I didn't have the luxury of kickin' it with the big wigs at CNATRA, though, so I might've been missing something.
But I didn't have the luxury of kickin' it with the big wigs at CNATRA, though, so I might've been missing something.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
