2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[cjdriver]

I could look again at the radar track and tell you, but my guess is it was 17500 or 16500 since his RA forced him into positive control airspace. His relative altitude to the 16 was within a few hundred feet as evidenced by the RA itself. My point was that a 180 degree turn towards the ga and the resultant RA demonstrates an aggressive and impulsive move on the part of the 16. Now I will be honest with you and say that if I was 20 something in a 16 and thought I could turn on a corp jet without him knowing it and lock him up with my targeting radar, I would have been tempted. It would have been the wrong thing to do though, wouldn't you agree?

 

[JungleJett]

I was asking what the Vipers altitude was...not the GA guy.

 

[cjdriver]

It would have to be within a few hundred feet to generate an RA, and the pilot is heard reporting the 16 came within a couple hundred feet. That would be credible, coming from someone who flies a jet aircraft and is dependent on their ability to judge distances the way we do everyday, would it not?

 

[KCPilot]

So what if the Viper intercepted the Civ guy. In his shoes I'd probably do the same to make sure he exited the area without incident.

Bottom line, when a MOA is active, don't fly into it. You don't know what is going on and you'll get yourself killed and most likely someone else too.

BTW- do any of you civ guys have 121.5 tuned up in your second radio? If not you should!

 

[JungleJett]

It would have to be within a few hundred feet to generate an RA, and the pilot is heard reporting the 16 came within a couple hundred feet. That would be credible, coming from someone who flies a jet aircraft and is dependent on their ability to judge distances the way we do everyday, would it not?

But you do not know for sure right? And a pilot who is NOT used to airplanes being within a 1000 feet of them is not going to be great with distances. It seems as their is a belief that the Viper did NOT come within 600 feet of him..and the GA pilot said he was 10 feet away..so no, I do not trust what the GA said.

Also, TCAS is based on rate of closure as well relative altitude.

 

[bagasticks]

rezolution. . . . dude. . . . . . .you are lost like a ball in tall weeds. . . i hope you are NOTAM'd when u fly. .

 

[Scrapdog]

It would have to be within a few hundred feet to generate an RA, and the pilot is heard reporting the 16 came within a couple hundred feet. That would be credible, coming from someone who flies a jet aircraft and is dependent on their ability to judge distances the way we do everyday, would it not?

I can garauntee you the GA guy has no clue on the distances vs. other airplanes. One, he's never flown close formation with an F-16 nor any other aircraft. Two, in order for us fighter guys to get our eyes caged on range, we do ranging exercises all the time...i.e. it takes practice. And that's against another airplane that's the exact same type.

This GA clown almost certainly had no idea if the F-16 was 1000 feet or 100 feet. He doesn't know when the canopy starts to break out or what range the intake takes shape (all cues for us to base our range). And his perception would tie in perfectly with his judgement to fly into a hot MOA in the first place - sub par.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I can garauntee you the GA guy has no clue on the distances vs. other airplanes. One, he's never flown close formation with an F-16 nor any other aircraft. Two, in order for us fighter guys to get our eyes caged on range, we do ranging exercises all the time...i.e. it takes practice. And that's against another airplane that's the exact same type.

This GA clown almost certainly had no idea if the F-16 was 1000 feet or 100 feet. He doesn't know when the canopy starts to break out or what range the intake takes shape (all cues for us to base our range). And his perception would tie in perfectly with his judgement to fly into a hot MOA in the first place - sub par.

And he shouldn't be expected too.....

However, he should expect not to be pushed into Class A airspace...with a TCAS RA....


Why would a MIL pilot fly like that?

 

[Scrapdog]

And he shouldn't be expected too.....

However, he should expect not to be pushed into Class A airspace...with a TCAS RA....


Why would a MIL pilot fly like that?

Because he was responding to a GA pilot flying in the middle of his fight when the GA pilot knew perfectly well it was a hot MOA.

It's not rocket science, if there are 4 or 8 high speed military jets maneuvering in relation to each other, they're not looking for a 250 knot GA airplane. Don't go in there, for safety's sake alone, much less poor judgement.

 

[Mud Eagle]

Why would a MIL pilot fly like that?

Fighter guys don't use TCAS, nor are they required to respond to RAs.

Remember that question I asked a few pages ago about looking for a reference?

That's because I didn't f*cking know the answer. The Viper guy probably didn't either.

 

[Hamburger]

What I do with the Admirals staff is so far over your insignificant head, that it dwarfs what ever you think you do into oblivion.
Oh, I get it now, your screen name comes from inSIGnificant!

What you do under the Admiral's desk is nothing to be proud of.



In Hoc.

 

[imacdog]

Because he was responding to a GA pilot flying in the middle of his fight when the GA pilot knew perfectly well it was a hot MOA.

It's not rocket science, if there are 4 or 8 high speed military jets maneuvering in relation to each other, they're not looking for a 250 knot GA airplane. Don't go in there, for safety's sake alone, much less poor judgement.

Let me condense your two paragraphs into three letters.

"Ego"

 

[cjdriver]

By the way, for the record; I want our fighter pilots to be aggressive, that's their job. Carry on, and be safe.

 

[Deuce130]

Well, I'm going weigh in again, despite the beatings I took on the last thread that discussed this issue. I think everyone agrees flying through an active MOA is a bad idea. If you have the foresight to call the controlling agency and can deconflict prior to entry, then good. If you can't, don't go in. As for the actions of the Viper pilot - that seems to be in dispute. What should not be disputed is that whatever he did, he could've done it better. I think the main thing to remember, in spite of all the chest thumping and E-peen stroking going on here by the pointy nose guys, is that MIL pilots are PROFESSIONALS. The GA pilots are not. The expectations for us are, and should be, higher.

 

[ExAF]

Agressive?

My point was that a 180 degree turn towards the ga and the resultant RA demonstrates an aggressive and impulsive move on the part of the 16.

I don't think you have a clue as to what an aggressive move is in an F-16. Aggressive to you might be a mild reposition to an F-16. An "aggressive" 180 turn is done every time a viper does an overhead patter to land. SOP.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I don't think you have a clue as to what an aggressive move is in an F-16. Aggressive to you might be a mild reposition to an F-16. An "aggressive" 180 turn is done every time a viper does an overhead patter to land. SOP.

for you.... not aggressive...

to a civ pilot..... yes... and that is what this is about....

 

[AIR2MUD]

It would have to be within a few hundred feet to generate an RA, and the pilot is heard reporting the 16 came within a couple hundred feet. That would be credible, coming from someone who flies a jet aircraft and is dependent on their ability to judge distances the way we do everyday, would it not?

TCAS II does not measure distance, it measures rates and anticipates the potential for a future collision using transponder returns. Also, considering the way an F-16 maneuvers even non-aggressively and at the rate of speed they're going, the TCAS could easily give a TA or RA and the F-16 would already be gone.

That being said, an F-16 maneuvering in a much less-than-aggressive manner (as evidenced by the turn-on seen in the radar video) than it normally operates is still far more aggressive than the average civilian will ever maneuver am aircraft. If you want to see how tight a block 50 F-16 can turn, I'll strap you to the pylon of the A-10 while I'm BFM'ing him and you can see for yourself.

So its very possible that the TCAS would have been set off without the F-16 getting within 500', simply by maneuvering around the civilian traffic in a manner consistent with non-aggressive fighter-type maneuvering.

I'm not taking sides in this case, but to hit some of the talking points people have been making:
- Civilians are looking at a military fighter maneuvering in relation to them, and don't understand how military dudes operate their jets and what, to them, is considered 'close' or 'aggressive'
- Military dudes are looking at the civilians and wondering what the big deal is - but to them, getting a TCAS RA is a huge deal, whether or not we think we are not maneuvering aggressively on them
- Judging distances is VERY subjective. In the A-10, as well as in fighters, we do something called MIL sizing. Without getting deep into what a milliradian is, and how to break it down, basically, its taking something you know the wingspan of or fuselage length of and then comparing its apparent size to something you have to target with (HUD symbology, gunsight, etc.) to come up with a very close approximation of range. Once you do this a few thousand times, your eyeballs get used to judging distances - and this is something most civilians do not do on a regular basis. Once again, most civilians don't have another aircraft coming within 1,000' of them unless they're parked at the FBO (with the occasional IFR/VFR passing within 500'). So once again, what is close for a civilian (think of the runway illusions with short but wide runways or vice versa - same principle and your eyeballs are deceiving you) is WAY far away for a tactical jet.
- what a public relations person from the base says and what the extent of the discipline is, especially in a case like this, is far and away from what most civilians think of when they reference Hollywood-versions of the 'stereotypical military-style butt-chewing'.

Now, for a personal opinion - the comm jamm on the freq after the civilian spoke up (and continued to share his war-and-peace diatribe on the radio) and which was added to by the other guy after the first one spoke up is totally bogus. Make the call, ask for a phone number, and then shut up and fly the airplane if you are scared of being hit by another aircraft.

 

[Diesel]

The term joint use tends to escape some people.

When you start flying civilian again or in the future you'll understand how serious an RA is. Maybe if the DHL flight and the russian airliner had there wouldn't be bodies all over eastern europe.

I do bet though after the press coverage this got the military pilot is at a radio listening post somewhere close to the north pole.

 

[erj-145mech]

What you do under the Admiral's desk is nothing to be proud of..

I can understand your frustration since the closest that you have been to an Admirals desk was when you were conceived by a rabit batch of bilge rats.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

erj-145mech...STFU!

I can understand your frustration since the closest that you have been to an Admirals desk was when you were conceived by a rabit batch of bilge rats.