2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[cjdriver]

TCASII operates on both distance and closure rates. The 16 had to be within a few hundred feet to set off an RA. Anytime someone points a weapon at me, I consider that aggressive, not so much the maneuver. Having said that, if I'm in an active MOA, it would not be unexpected to have a weapon pointed at me. If I had an RA screaming for a 3000fpm climb, I would absolutely react as trained and follow the RA if I couldn't gain a visual immediately. I've only had one RA, and it required only a few hundred fpm climb. A 3000fpm RA would indicate a significant closure rate and impending collision.

 

[AIR2MUD]

Having said that, if I'm in an active MOA, it would not be unexpected to have a weapon pointed at me. If I had an RA screaming for a 3000fpm climb, I would absolutely react as trained and follow the RA if I couldn't gain a visual immediately. I've only had one RA, and it required only a few hundred fpm climb. A 3000fpm RA would indicate a significant closure rate and impending collision.

Other unknowns: did the civvy pilot overreact? I understand being a bit flustered, but perhaps he had other options available. For example, did he ever have the F-16 in sight? If so, was lateral maneuvering then an option, instead of continuing the climb into the Class A?

Once again, none of us was there, so much of this topic is pure speculation hindered by preconceived perceptions.

 

[JungleJett]

for you.... not aggressive...

to a civ pilot..... yes... and that is what this is about....

And a competent civilian pilot should understand that while operating in an active MOA, there might be a little "aggressive" maneuvering going on...but again, you would need a certain level of competence.

Diesel...

I doubt he got much more than a sit down. You need to learn how the military works.

 

[bagasticks]

The term joint use tends to escape some people.

When you start flying civilian again or in the future you'll understand how serious an RA is. Maybe if the DHL flight and the russian airliner had there wouldn't be bodies all over eastern europe.

I do bet though after the press coverage this got the military pilot is at a radio listening post somewhere close to the north pole.

Many military pilots fly civilian to and know well what an RA is. . .and that pilot is flying a viper in a MOA somewhere. . .you're an idiot

 

[bagasticks]

for you.... not aggressive...

to a civ pilot..... yes... and that is what this is about....

actually its about a civilian in a MILITARY operating area. . . .


NOT a military dude in a CIVILIAN operating area. . .If he had made that manuever in class B airspace, you might have a point. .

 

[bssthound]

I do bet though after the press coverage this got the military pilot is at a radio listening post somewhere close to the north pole

There are several casinos down here that would love to see you come through the front door. Methinks you've watched one or two movies too many.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Other unknowns: did the civvy pilot overreact? I understand being a bit flustered, but perhaps he had other options available. For example, did he ever have the F-16 in sight? If so, was lateral maneuvering then an option, instead of continuing the climb into the Class A?

No. Lateral maneuvers are not an option. TCAS RA's only give vertical escape maneuvers. It seems that many MIL (not all) don't understand TCAS and how it works... A 3000fpm climb is very aggressive for a CIV aircraft of that type...

Once again, none of us was there, so much of this topic is pure speculation hindered by preconceived perceptions.

That is the whole point... the CIV pilot didn't know, so he had to follow the RA... pretty concerning stuff for a CIV guy, with a low energy aircraft and no ejection seat...

We also know that the MIL pilot was reprimanded.... at a minimum he made the DoD look bad...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Other unknowns: did the civvy pilot overreact? I understand being a bit flustered, but perhaps he had other options available. For example, did he ever have the F-16 in sight? If so, was lateral maneuvering then an option, instead of continuing the climb into the Class A?

No. Lateral maneuvers are not an option. TCAS RA's only give vertical escape maneuvers. It seems that many MIL (not all) don't understand TCAS and how it works... A 3000fpm climb is very aggressive for a CIV aircraft of that type...

Once again, none of us was there, so much of this topic is pure speculation hindered by preconceived perceptions.

That is the whole point... the CIV pilot didn't know, so he had to follow the RA... pretty concerning stuff for a CIV guy, with a low energy aircraft and no ejection seat...

We also know that the MIL pilot was reprimanded.... at a minimum he made the DoD look bad...

Having a trained killer aggressively chasing TWO CIV aircraft that pose no national security threat with a warplane is not good....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

2x post

 

[Be 23]

I do bet though after the press coverage this got the military pilot is at a radio listening post somewhere close to the north pole.

I think the squadron commander found the pilot in the squadron bar, "Hey lieutenant, we told public affairs that you got reprimanded for that PA mess the other day, so, umm, you're reprimanded. And next time you do that you should turn off your mode 3 like I do. Here, have another beer. Remember, tell anybody that asks that you've been reprimanded."

OK, probably not. Diesel is probably closer to right, but it's what I think should have happened.

 

[erj-145mech]

erj-145mech...STFU!

Wassamatta, you didn't get a reach around?

 

[Diesel]

Hmmm a highly competitive buisness where every pilot is trying to outshine the other pilot. Board time comes up and everyone has a perfect record except one guy. He may not be at a radio listening post but I bet his career is severely side tracked.

Same as a civilian crew who does something stupid and has to go before the CP. In the end they know your name and thats never a good thing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I bet these Viper pilots would've done it differently...

 

[JungleJett]

Same as a civilian crew who does something stupid and has to go before the CP. In the end they know your name and thats never a good thing.

Wrong again...the union would get involved and save the offending pilots job...and his dues.

 

[Diesel]

Yup your right nowhere did I say they would get fired but the CP would still know their names and that is never a good thing.

A good career is for the CP to say "who's retiring?"

 

[tumbleweed]

No matter how you spin this event it was caused by two VFR aircraft flying through an active MOA! There is nothing irresponsible, dangerous or even illegal in what the F-16 pilot did. If you think so, then sorry, cry to AOPA about it since they seem to care!

You have no idea what it takes to be a military pilot or how we interact with one another in a work environment. It is not anywhere near what you're implying...which is quite frankly a totally false assessment. Messing around with some stupid yahoos going through the airspace during a fight is so low on the priority list it doesn't even register. Safety of flight and insuring deconfliction from said yahoos would be #1...followed by actually performing the training we need to execute the mission's we're assigned, either at home or overseas. Otherwise we'd just be burning holes in the sky and a lot of JP-8 for no reason!

Here's some more clarifying information if you haven't seen it: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1097-full.html#197689

Build a bridge and get over it already...

 

[Daytonaflyer]

How about we'll agree to stay out of your military areas if you agree to stay out of all our civilian and commerical areas?
It works on so many levels.

 

[cjdriver]

Wow, that article was very disturbing:

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#197689

It appears that the mil was trying to intimidate the civ for having dared to enter an MOA. Was the goal to make the civ afraid? Are we to be afraid of our military? Think about this, please. Why do we have a military again?

 

[JungleJett]

How about we'll agree to stay out of your military areas if you agree to stay out of all our civilian and commerical areas?
It works on so many levels.

Maybe the military should shut down all the MOA's and turn them into restricted areas?

Or how about we learn how to get along with each other and respect the intent of a certain type of airspace?

Its unfortunate that the pure civilians on here cannot see the dangers posed by entering an active MOA just because "I CAN". Those dangers are for everyone involved.

Having seen both sides of the argument and having seen what can go on inside a MOA, I choose to stay out.

 

[ExAF]

Omg!

Are we to be afraid of our military?

Yes...Be afraid...be very afraid. This thread is almost as entertaining as the last time it ran. Almost an exact repeat if I remember correctly. SOS.