2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[taz1518]

Moa

erj-145mech, here is somethign for ya:

"Never pass up the opportunity to keep your mouth shut"!

..also how about a little advice..stay the %*#@ out of an active MOA when we are training! We're probably doing something far more than you can comprehend. And yes, when I spent two days planning, prepping, and briefing a large force exercise and a civilian plane causes the whole thing to get knocked off, I tend to get a bit PO'd! You as well as everyone else have every right to be there, just have a little "situational awareness".

 

[Deuce130]

Wasn't there an epic thread on this topic already??

 

[ALIMBO]

There was but it still prompts people to say stupid things like erj145 did.

 

[imacdog]

Was erj145 factually incorrect? Did or did not the F-16 pilot intentionally intercept the VFR traffic? Simple yes or no would be nice, thank you.

 

[Deuce130]

Was erj145 factually incorrect? Did or did not the F-16 pilot intentionally intercept the VFR traffic? Simple yes or no would be nice, thank you.

Sounds like he did. Don't count on getting any rational discourse on the incident, however. There wasn't any on the last thread and there won't be any on this one.

 

[erj-145mech]

Was erj145 factually incorrect? Did or did not the F-16 pilot intentionally intercept the VFR traffic? Simple yes or no would be nice, thank you.

All you have to do is look at the radar track, then you decide for yourself.

Hotdogs SIG and TAZ, ya'll can kiss my grits! When a military aircraft enters a MOA, you do not own that airspace, plain and simple. You may wish that you do, but get over it.
The USAF has already admitted that its operations in this instance were at fault, the military pilot was "counciled" and it will be changing its procedures in MOA operations.
If you want to fly around in reckless abandon, you need to be in a restricted area. MOA's are shared airspace. The Pentagon knows it, the FAA knows it, and if you can't get it, you have a problem.

 

[SIG600]

All you have to do is look at the radar track, then you decide for yourself.

Hotdogs SIG and TAZ, ya'll can kiss my grits! When a military aircraft enters a MOA, you do not own that airspace, plain and simple. You may wish that you do, but get over it.
The USAF has already admitted that its operations in this instance were at fault, the military pilot was "counciled" and it will be changing its procedures in MOA operations.
If you want to fly around in reckless abandon, you need to be in a restricted area. MOA's are shared airspace. The Pentagon knows it, the FAA knows it, and if you can't get it, you have a problem.

Keep flying around with that attitude. It's going to get you killed. Reckless abandon? You can't possibly comprehend the planning, preflight, and briefing that goes into a .8 flight. When your dumbass comes trolling through and knocks off a 16 plane LFE, you realize you've just wasted millions of dollars and thousands of man hours of work and mission planning? Keep doing it, you're just giving us more ammo to push for making them all restricted areas. You've got 1300 hours and a private pilots licence... so how's about you take this chance to shut up and learn something.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Keep flying around with that attitude. It's going to get you killed.

In this situation... what did the two CIV pilots do that was illegal?

Reckless abandon?

Yes, the F-16 pilot..... he was reprimanded...

Sounds like some rogue pilot mentalities on the MIL side.... on this one....

You can't possibly comprehend the planning, preflight, and briefing that goes into a .8 flight.

Does that include intercepting CIV aircraft?

When your dumbass comes trolling through and knocks off a 16 plane LFE, you realize you've just wasted millions of dollars and thousands of man hours of work and mission planning?

A valid point no doubt... however if the FAA and DoD didn't want this to happen they'd ensure no CIV traffic would be allowed into the MOA.. maybe you need to take it up with the policy makers and not the pilots of CIV aircraft...

Keep doing it, you're just giving us more ammo to push for making them all restricted areas.

You? Or you mean the policy makers?

You've got 1300 hours and a private pilots licence... so how's about you take this chance to shut up and learn something.

It seems you don't get it. What you've got is a bad attitude...

Just in case you forgot the F-16 pilot was reprimanded. Flying into an active MOA isn't a smart idea, but then again pilots, both MIL and CIV have done plenty of things that were legal but unsafe...

Really the issue comes done to judgement... again, the CIV pilots should not have been flying in there... but here is the real just of it...

when a MIL tactical jet has to break it off he is expected to remain professional... and not shadow, fly form and basically harass the CIV aircraft...

before you respond.... don't forget... the F-16 pilot was reprimanded...

 

[ExAF]

Always Exceptions

For some of us in certain fields like aerial firefighting, and for those in EMS flying, we do not really have the luxury of steering around MOAs.

If active fire fighting is going on, the MOA will most likely be closed or scheduled to the firefighters. The last thing the mil wants to do is get in the middle of a firefighting operation. (Just like the last thing VFR civ traffic should want to do is get in the middle of a 4 v 4 aerial engagement.) If EMS then the controller will most likely know about it and notify the occupants of the MOA and they will adjust. As far as the reprimand of the F-16 pilot, it probably consisted of his Ops Officer walking up to him and saying in a very sarcastic tone...."Call Sign," Quit scaring the dumb sh@t civilians flying through the MOAs.....

 

[Be 23]

when a MIL tactical jet has to break it off he is expected to remain professional... and not shadow, fly form and basically harass the CIV aircraft...

before you respond.... don't forget... the F-16 pilot was reprimanded...

The F-16 pilot probably didn't know he was harassing the civ's. If the TCAS hadn't been going off, would the civ even know he was there? Would he care.

The F-16 pilot broke no rules since he remained more than 500' away. If you think he intercepted the aircraft you need to brush up on aircraft intercept procedures.

He was probably reprimanded for getting in the press. Negative press is something you can't get away with in the AF, even if you were following all of the rules.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The F-16 pilot probably didn't know he was harassing the civ's. If the TCAS hadn't been going off, would the civ even know he was there? Would he care.

Wow... a trained killer flying a warcraft relatively close (for a CIV) didn't think he was harassing a US registered civilian aircraft... as the CIV aircraft tried to maneuver away... the F-16 pilot continues to shadow... all under the guise of "I am not harassing this guy"

C'mon guys... this the post 9/11 environment.. getting shadowed by a tactical jet isn't cool...

The F-16 pilot broke no rules since he remained more than 500' away. If you think he intercepted the aircraft you need to brush up on aircraft intercept procedures.

Then what was he reprimanded for? Or better... what was the purpose of the F-16 pilots actions? Did those actions serve a purpose? If so, whose? Did the F-16 pilots actions served the best interest of the DoD in what way?

He was probably reprimanded for getting in the press. Negative press is something you can't get away with in the AF, even if you were following all of the rules.

But what you are really advocating is the message from the brass... "AF pilots can do whatever they want... harass CIV pilots, etc... just don't get caught..."


I know the AF doesn't think this way... but it seems you do....


Quite amazing is this is a great learning experience for all.... I think the CIV pilots have learned that flying in a hot MOA is not a good idea all while being legal... I think many more CIV pilots will not...

But in addition, I think the CIV pilots will remain clear because a small few and (too) proud (not the Marines!) MIL guys can't self reflect and learn as well...

 

[bagasticks]

The viper dude was most likely only reprimanded for poor display of public relations, not lack of airmanship. .

It is not uncommon to "shadow" a vfr target out of the moa just to verify his exact location and confirm when he's out of the area.

You can fly through a moa all day long and preach till your blue in the face about how you have a right to be there. . .blah,blah,blah, but it will be terrbily tough for a plastic surgeon to convert you from a grainular pink mist back to the solid form of a human when a 40,000 pound bullet transitions your windscreen.

If you think a half dozen jets going 400kts at 8000 fpm in 6 different directions can avoid you and that an RA will get you out of their way, you might as well fly upside down through a thunderstorm and shoot a night ILS to absolute mins. . . . just because it's legal and you have the right. . . .

before you labe me as the hotdog AF dude, Im a guard dude and spend most of my time vfr in a light aircraft for my civilian employer and have never had a problem calling center 5min out from my moa penetration (sts) and asking if its hot. . .if they dont know, i go around, under etc. . .

 

[cjdriver]

Is this guy an aberration, out of the norm behaviorally? Did he do the wrong thing? Would he do the wrong thing in battle as well? Were his actions impulsive? Thoughts....?

 

[erj-145mech]

you realize you've just wasted millions of dollars and thousands of man hours of work and mission planning?

Millions of dollars on a .8?? I work with NAVAIR and CNATRA daily, and they don't even skew the numbers that bad! Its a good thing that you're not in finance.

Keep doing it, you're just giving us more ammo to push for making them all restricted areas. You've got 1300 hours and a private pilots licence... so how's about you take this chance to shut up and learn something.

Where have you been? The military is losing airspace left and right due to under utilization. The only thing that you could push for is less RIF's if Obama gets into office.

 

[imacdog]

This incident certainly doesn't speak well for the maturity of our armed forces pilots. Many of the responses here seem to validate that. What a bunch of crybabies.

 

[414Flyer]

If active fire fighting is going on, the MOA will most likely be closed or scheduled to the firefighters. The last thing the mil wants to do is get in the middle of a firefighting operation. .

While it sound good, thats still too much assuming, and we all know how the pace of government bureaucracy works. Before the owner of that MOA has been notified, there have probably already been recon planes, possibly air tankers and smokejumper aircraft in operation if a fire was spotted that needed to be contained. Those things can happen very quickly after a fire has been spotted and the powers that be dispatch firefighting aircraft to it, and I have no idea how long it takes for the right people to be notified about a firefighting ops in their MOA.

And fire aircraft could also be transiting through a MOA to fire some other place too. Just another thing to think about if you are somewhat near a place that hosts fire aircraft, or that you have fires nearby. It is that time of year, and some places will get lots of fire aircraft.

We did have an incident near Eielson AFB recently, and in that one I cant blame pilots of either the jumpship or the AF pilots. BLM had chosen a jumpspot off the departure end of the Eileson runway, and the approach controllers approach did not pass word to Eielson tower about a jumpship operating just outside the tower airspace.

It was rather alarming for the jumpship, which was right about to start a practice jump for the smokejumpers, to see two KC-10s go under it, with a gaggle of F-16s.

 

[AIR2MUD]

I am a full time corporate pilot and a part timer in the Guard, so I see both sides of the argument.

It never ceases to amaze me that pilots with no experience in a certain area of aviation can be so quick to throw the B.S. flag and tell the other half who do have said experience just what it is they are doing wrong.

Pilot will be pilots I guess.

Both sides of the argument are correct.

Civilian dudes - stop flying VFR through active MOAs. Treat a MOA as a restricted area, often it is indeed an extension of one. TALK to someone before you go in there. I know WAY too many civilian pilots who have the attitude of 'It's just an MOA' and blunder their way into the middle of something they really don't want to be involved with.

Military dudes - be aware that it is just a MOA and not a restricted area. Heck, how many times have we been working in a restricted area and had joe bag o' donuts civvy come plodding along in his Mooney, sectional map sunshade in place, on autopilot flying the green line on a GPS?

For the civvys out there, the mere fact that you can see an F-16 means it is a lot closer than you are used to seeing any other airplane in flight. To a military pilot looking back at you, he/she is a lot farther away than they are used to flying in even route formation (a much, much looser formation than the tight fingertip formation you see the Blue Angels/Thunderbirds in).

Military pilots are aware of TCAS, but often times are NOT aware of exactly what sets it off and what your required action is if you get an RA. What to a military pilot might be a normal rejoin to get a look-see could cause serious RAs in a civilian's cockpit.

Let's try to remember that we're mutually dependent on each other. The civilians help us pay the taxes so we can go mach-snot (except the Hog - we spend all that extra gas money on 30mm rounds) and the military guys are going mach-snot to give the civilians the freedom to fly their airplanes around.

Some mutual respect, understanding and cooperation would be appreciated and goes a long way.

 

[Deuce130]

I am a full time corporate pilot and a part timer in the Guard, so I see both sides of the argument.

It never ceases to amaze me that pilots with no experience in a certain area of aviation can be so quick to throw the B.S. flag and tell the other half who do have said experience just what it is they are doing wrong.

Pilot will be pilots I guess.

Both sides of the argument are correct.

Civilian dudes - stop flying VFR through active MOAs. Treat a MOA as a restricted area, often it is indeed an extension of one. TALK to someone before you go in there. I know WAY too many civilian pilots who have the attitude of 'It's just an MOA' and blunder their way into the middle of something they really don't want to be involved with.

Military dudes - be aware that it is just a MOA and not a restricted area. Heck, how many times have we been working in a restricted area and had joe bag o' donuts civvy come plodding along in his Mooney, sectional map sunshade in place, on autopilot flying the green line on a GPS?

For the civvys out there, the mere fact that you can see an F-16 means it is a lot closer than you are used to seeing any other airplane in flight. To a military pilot looking back at you, he/she is a lot farther away than they are used to flying in even route formation (a much, much looser formation than the tight fingertip formation you see the Blue Angels/Thunderbirds in).

Military pilots are aware of TCAS, but often times are NOT aware of exactly what sets it off and what your required action is if you get an RA. What to a military pilot might be a normal rejoin to get a look-see could cause serious RAs in a civilian's cockpit.

Let's try to remember that we're mutually dependent on each other. The civilians help us pay the taxes so we can go mach-snot (except the Hog - we spend all that extra gas money on 30mm rounds) and the military guys are going mach-snot to give the civilians the freedom to fly their airplanes around.

Some mutual respect, understanding and cooperation would be appreciated and goes a long way.

Good post and wise words to all. Well done.

 

[cjdriver]

I am a full time corporate pilot and a part timer in the Guard, so I see both sides of the argument.

It never ceases to amaze me that pilots with no experience in a certain area of aviation can be so quick to throw the B.S. flag and tell the other half who do have said experience just what it is they are doing wrong.

Pilot will be pilots I guess.

Both sides of the argument are correct.

Civilian dudes - stop flying VFR through active MOAs. Treat a MOA as a restricted area, often it is indeed an extension of one. TALK to someone before you go in there. I know WAY too many civilian pilots who have the attitude of 'It's just an MOA' and blunder their way into the middle of something they really don't want to be involved with.

Military dudes - be aware that it is just a MOA and not a restricted area. Heck, how many times have we been working in a restricted area and had joe bag o' donuts civvy come plodding along in his Mooney, sectional map sunshade in place, on autopilot flying the green line on a GPS?

For the civvys out there, the mere fact that you can see an F-16 means it is a lot closer than you are used to seeing any other airplane in flight. To a military pilot looking back at you, he/she is a lot farther away than they are used to flying in even route formation (a much, much looser formation than the tight fingertip formation you see the Blue Angels/Thunderbirds in).

Military pilots are aware of TCAS, but often times are NOT aware of exactly what sets it off and what your required action is if you get an RA. What to a military pilot might be a normal rejoin to get a look-see could cause serious RAs in a civilian's cockpit.

Let's try to remember that we're mutually dependent on each other. The civilians help us pay the taxes so we can go mach-snot (except the Hog - we spend all that extra gas money on 30mm rounds) and the military guys are going mach-snot to give the civilians the freedom to fly their airplanes around.

Some mutual respect, understanding and cooperation would be appreciated and goes a long way.

Perfect.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

For the MIL guys...just assume that anything with two engines or a turbine these days has TCAS.

It's REQUIRED by the FARs to follow a resolution advisory. NO OPTION unless you have the target visually.

If you have your mode C on, TCAS WILL pick you up. If you are anywhere within +/- 700 feet, and even creeping towards the aircraft, chances are you will set off an RA. And guess what? If you follow, you'll just make the TCAS scream louder.

The MIL guys have been spanked for this before. A couple of years ago, they were teasing airliners off shore on the East Coast. We got the same lame excuse then: "we weren't aware of the TCAS capability/functionality", IE "we didn't know they could see us".

I was heading down to HHH one day, along the Victor airway in a large turboprop. Jonny Viper in the MOA next door decides to form up behind us and "take a look". TCAS starts screaming, RAs are followed, and the potential for people and FAs thrown around is VERY real. Not cool.

We can see you. Keep your distance.

Nu