2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[SIG600]

For some of us in certain fields like aerial firefighting, and for those in EMS flying, we do not really have the luxury of steering around MOAs.

Granted, no argument there. There are acceptable levels of increased risk we all must take periodically.

 

[erj-145mech]

Most likely Capt or Maj Viper Driver! I sounds like he had some good discipline, he called a KIO and stopped the engagement to wait on a VFR aircraft to transition. It looks as if he stayed "well clear" of the civilian aircraft.

Well, Lt Viper Driver was the only thing that caused the situation in the MOA, he executed a 180 to intercept the civillian, flew his wing for a while, and then executed another 180 to continue his original course. There was no conflict until he created one. He was reprimanded, the USAF is changing its policy on flights in MOA's, and the civillian didn't even get the transmission to call the controlling agency. It already looks like the USAF has admitted errors in operations, and is changing those operations. The military does not own the MOA's, they are joint use.

 

[vectorvictor]

Should have shot him down on principle alone. Just kidding.

I can't tell you how many times I went through MOA's that were active. Most of the ones were locally controlled so you could talk to the military controllers on VHF. Never saw it as a problem as long as you talked to them.

 

[SIG600]

Well, Lt Viper Driver was the only thing that caused the situation in the MOA, he executed a 180 to intercept the civillian, flew his wing for a while, and then executed another 180 to continue his original course. There was no conflict until he created one. He was reprimanded, the USAF is changing its policy on flights in MOA's, and the civillian didn't even get the transmission to call the controlling agency. It already looks like the USAF has admitted errors in operations, and is changing those operations. The military does not own the MOA's, they are joint use.

You obviously know d1ck about what really goes on in a MOA, so why don't you just stop talking?

 

[Future SNA]

I used to fly through MOA's VFR all the time when I was civilian. I always had flight following and I'd say the majority of the time ATC would let me know if the MOA was in use. Knowing what I know now, I realize there would've been absolutely no way I could see/avoid the kinds of dynamic maneuvering the military does in a MOA. Knowing what I know now, I would excercise a bit more diligence during my preflight as to whether or not MOA's I would be transiting are active and at what altitudes. As the planes I flew got bigger/faster/flew higher, I would make every opportunity to get out of a MOA as fast as reasonably possible while IFR to help everybody out. Anybody flying that high VFR through an active MOA is frigain retarded, enough said.

 

[taz1518]

Moa

erj-145mech, here is somethign for ya:

"Never pass up the opportunity to keep your mouth shut"!

..also how about a little advice..stay the %*#@ out of an active MOA when we are training! We're probably doing something far more than you can comprehend. And yes, when I spent two days planning, prepping, and briefing a large force exercise and a civilian plane causes the whole thing to get knocked off, I tend to get a bit PO'd! You as well as everyone else have every right to be there, just have a little "situational awareness".

 

[Deuce130]

Wasn't there an epic thread on this topic already??

 

[ALIMBO]

There was but it still prompts people to say stupid things like erj145 did.

 

[imacdog]

Was erj145 factually incorrect? Did or did not the F-16 pilot intentionally intercept the VFR traffic? Simple yes or no would be nice, thank you.

 

[Deuce130]

Was erj145 factually incorrect? Did or did not the F-16 pilot intentionally intercept the VFR traffic? Simple yes or no would be nice, thank you.

Sounds like he did. Don't count on getting any rational discourse on the incident, however. There wasn't any on the last thread and there won't be any on this one.

 

[erj-145mech]

Was erj145 factually incorrect? Did or did not the F-16 pilot intentionally intercept the VFR traffic? Simple yes or no would be nice, thank you.

All you have to do is look at the radar track, then you decide for yourself.

Hotdogs SIG and TAZ, ya'll can kiss my grits! When a military aircraft enters a MOA, you do not own that airspace, plain and simple. You may wish that you do, but get over it.
The USAF has already admitted that its operations in this instance were at fault, the military pilot was "counciled" and it will be changing its procedures in MOA operations.
If you want to fly around in reckless abandon, you need to be in a restricted area. MOA's are shared airspace. The Pentagon knows it, the FAA knows it, and if you can't get it, you have a problem.

 

[SIG600]

All you have to do is look at the radar track, then you decide for yourself.

Hotdogs SIG and TAZ, ya'll can kiss my grits! When a military aircraft enters a MOA, you do not own that airspace, plain and simple. You may wish that you do, but get over it.
The USAF has already admitted that its operations in this instance were at fault, the military pilot was "counciled" and it will be changing its procedures in MOA operations.
If you want to fly around in reckless abandon, you need to be in a restricted area. MOA's are shared airspace. The Pentagon knows it, the FAA knows it, and if you can't get it, you have a problem.

Keep flying around with that attitude. It's going to get you killed. Reckless abandon? You can't possibly comprehend the planning, preflight, and briefing that goes into a .8 flight. When your dumbass comes trolling through and knocks off a 16 plane LFE, you realize you've just wasted millions of dollars and thousands of man hours of work and mission planning? Keep doing it, you're just giving us more ammo to push for making them all restricted areas. You've got 1300 hours and a private pilots licence... so how's about you take this chance to shut up and learn something.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Keep flying around with that attitude. It's going to get you killed.

In this situation... what did the two CIV pilots do that was illegal?

Reckless abandon?

Yes, the F-16 pilot..... he was reprimanded...

Sounds like some rogue pilot mentalities on the MIL side.... on this one....

You can't possibly comprehend the planning, preflight, and briefing that goes into a .8 flight.

Does that include intercepting CIV aircraft?

When your dumbass comes trolling through and knocks off a 16 plane LFE, you realize you've just wasted millions of dollars and thousands of man hours of work and mission planning?

A valid point no doubt... however if the FAA and DoD didn't want this to happen they'd ensure no CIV traffic would be allowed into the MOA.. maybe you need to take it up with the policy makers and not the pilots of CIV aircraft...

Keep doing it, you're just giving us more ammo to push for making them all restricted areas.

You? Or you mean the policy makers?

You've got 1300 hours and a private pilots licence... so how's about you take this chance to shut up and learn something.

It seems you don't get it. What you've got is a bad attitude...

Just in case you forgot the F-16 pilot was reprimanded. Flying into an active MOA isn't a smart idea, but then again pilots, both MIL and CIV have done plenty of things that were legal but unsafe...

Really the issue comes done to judgement... again, the CIV pilots should not have been flying in there... but here is the real just of it...

when a MIL tactical jet has to break it off he is expected to remain professional... and not shadow, fly form and basically harass the CIV aircraft...

before you respond.... don't forget... the F-16 pilot was reprimanded...

 

[ExAF]

Always Exceptions

For some of us in certain fields like aerial firefighting, and for those in EMS flying, we do not really have the luxury of steering around MOAs.

If active fire fighting is going on, the MOA will most likely be closed or scheduled to the firefighters. The last thing the mil wants to do is get in the middle of a firefighting operation. (Just like the last thing VFR civ traffic should want to do is get in the middle of a 4 v 4 aerial engagement.) If EMS then the controller will most likely know about it and notify the occupants of the MOA and they will adjust. As far as the reprimand of the F-16 pilot, it probably consisted of his Ops Officer walking up to him and saying in a very sarcastic tone...."Call Sign," Quit scaring the dumb sh@t civilians flying through the MOAs.....

 

[Be 23]

when a MIL tactical jet has to break it off he is expected to remain professional... and not shadow, fly form and basically harass the CIV aircraft...

before you respond.... don't forget... the F-16 pilot was reprimanded...

The F-16 pilot probably didn't know he was harassing the civ's. If the TCAS hadn't been going off, would the civ even know he was there? Would he care.

The F-16 pilot broke no rules since he remained more than 500' away. If you think he intercepted the aircraft you need to brush up on aircraft intercept procedures.

He was probably reprimanded for getting in the press. Negative press is something you can't get away with in the AF, even if you were following all of the rules.