2 -v- 1 (close call with a Viper)

[SIG600]

I don't think I've seen a single advocate of VFR civilian traffic explain why it's a GOOD idea to fly through a MOA, yet. Like highsky, I used to be a CFI in a former life and looking back at it, I was such a fool to transition MOAs.

But I didn't have the luxury of kickin' it with the big wigs at CNATRA, though, so I might've been missing something.

Shack.


EMCON works just as well as STBY BTW... less button pushing.

 

[bagasticks]

What I do with the Admirals staff is so far over your insignificant head, that it dwarfs what ever you think you do into oblivion.
Oh, I get it now, your screen name comes from inSIGnificant!

are you for real? ? ? do you really think anyone on here gives a s**t that you hold the Admiral's colostomy bag? that qualifies you for. . . . . . . . d**k.


I have a theory about RA's too. . . . . .dont aimlessly drone through a 3 dimensional furball VFR and you wont needlessly get one. .

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why did the F-16 chase the CIV aircraft? What was he gaining by doing so?

 

[erj-145mech]

are you for real? ? ? do you really think anyone on here gives a s**t that you hold the Admiral's colostomy bag? that qualifies you for. . . . . . . . d**k.


I have a theory about RA's too. . . . . .dont aimlessly drone through a 3 dimensional furball VFR and you wont needlessly get one. .

The only thing that I see in the Old Mans colostomy bag is a bunch of Gyrines! The look and the smell reminds me of Camp Pendleton is in that bag.

The fact of the matter is that the civillians did not violate any regs, thats a fact. Sitck that in your pipe and smoke it!
The fact of the matter is the only conflict was created by Lt Viper Driver, thats a fact.

 

[CrewDawg]

The fact of the matter is that the civillians did not violate any regs, thats a fact.

What reg did the Viper pilot break? It's already been proven he stayed well clear of the civilian aircraft. True, he could have stayed a little farther away but did he break any reg? I don't wanna hear the Careless and reckless ops either, we all know that is a bull $hit reg the FAA uses as a catch all.

Reprimand......I'd like to see what that was!

I was also a CFI before I joined the AF and I always taught my students to steer clear if the MOA was active. It may be legal but not smart if it's active. I wasn't willing to bet my life that that Viper guy would see me while he is pulling 9G's fighting another jet.

 

[NuGuy]

What reg did the Viper pilot break? It's already been proven he stayed well clear of the civilian aircraft. True, he could have stayed a little farther away but did he break any reg?

Reprimand......I'd like to see what that was!

My take on it is this: The area in an MOA is sort of like a public park. Some guys use the park to play their weekly softball games, so they sort of have "squatters rights", even though it's not official. It just happens to be where they play their games, and the park office is nice enough to post this on the bulletin board.

But it's a pretty big park, and kind of pain to walk around if nothing is going on. Further, even if there's a game in progress, chances are if you just walk around the edge, you won't get bonked with a softball.

Now it IS pretty rude just to cut through the park when a game is going on. Common courtesy.

OTOH, if you decide to just walk along the edge or cut the corner of their "outfield", you'd think the guys playing would just say "time out" for the 20 seconds it takes you to cut the corner.

But instead of that, the softball guys have decided that it's better to run up on you with a bat in their hand, get right up in your face, and poke you in the chest with their bat and say "you need to get off our field", when it really isn't their field (if it was, it'd be a restricted area).

Further, NOW they're torqued that you can see them running up on you, and can scoot around a bit to keep them at arms length.

But enough of that metaphor. Unless it's an official intercept for national security reasons, there is ZERO reason for any miltary aircraft to intentionally be within 1 mile or 1000 feet of any civilian aircraft.

Most civ guys are NOT trained in formation flying, and may be startled, causing unnecessary distraction and/or injury to persons if an evasive manuever or RA is followed.

Nu

 

[erj-145mech]

What reg did the Viper pilot break? It's already been proven he stayed well clear of the civilian aircraft. True, he could have stayed a little farther away but did he break any reg?

Nobody has ever said that Lt Viper Driver broke any regs. Forget about that, get that out of your mind. He used poor judgement, not once, but twice.
It doesn't matter the severity of the reprimand, he was still reprimanded. That in itself assigns guilt.

 

[tumbleweed]

OTOH, if you decide to just walk along the edge or cut the corner of their "outfield", you'd think the guys playing would just say "time out" for the 20 seconds it takes you to cut the corner.

That is pretty much what they did in this case Nu! It may seem different from your perspective, but in reality the flight of 4 had stopped maneuvering and was holding waiting for the civ aircraft to leave. The flight lead then proceeded to investigate where and at what altitude the "stranger" traffic was to see if there was a way of continuing the training with self-imposed restrictions (i.e. - setting a fight floor or geographic border to deconflict). The fight then continued with those restrictions until the aircraft were clear of the MOA. Maybe he got a little closer than necessary...but was it really that dangerous??? Not unless he didn't know where they were or actually zipped by them at 10' shooting flares or something.

If you're going to fly through an active MOA then you should be grateful they stopped and actually looked for the traffice before continuing. It's the guys who make it into the MOA with nobody knowing you're there...that's when you'll see a two ship flash past your nose before you even believe it. Besides...if the dudes were able to see the F-16 that clearly, then why worry so much about the RA? Wouldn't visual deconfliction be the primary means over some computer system that may lag? Our LINK-16 is great...but I would never trust that data over what I actually see with my own two eyes!

Every MOA I have ever used has some sort of controlling agency you can talk to. If you feel the need to go through a MOA, then by all means at least talk to someone to (a) see if it is hot & (b) inform them of your intentions. Whoever is using the MOA can then at least modify their profile without having to do stuff like this in the first place! That's all we really ask of anybody transitioning a MOA...whether they are Civ or Mil. We military pilots understand that MOAs aren't restricted areas and that civ traffic will be there...we do it eveyday! It is the blatant disregard with the fact they we are operating there also that creates problems. This is shared use airspace we are talking about afterall...so learn how to help us help you!

 

[SIG600]

Nobody has ever said that Lt Viper Driver broke any regs. Forget about that, get that out of your mind. He used poor judgement, not once, but twice.
It doesn't matter the severity of the reprimand, he was still reprimanded. That in itself assigns guilt.

The ignorance in this post and the his post before it pretty much sum up the ignorance in his opinion. 1300 hours and a private pilot do not an educated opinion make. I've lead this horse to water, now I want to drown his dumbas$ in it. I can't take any more... I'm out.

 

[cjdriver]

To the mil guys; do you think the intercept demonstrated good judgement?

 

[JungleJett]

Did the civilian traffic exercise good judgment by transiting an active MOA without talking to the controlling agency? MOA and their frequencies are clearly marked on a chart.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Did the civilian traffic exercise good judgment by transiting an active MOA without talking to the controlling agency? MOA and their frequencies are clearly marked on a chart.

Learning: A change in behavior as a result of expereince.

The CIV guys all agree that going into a hot MOA is a bad idea.. and as said before... I think many have learned from this and won't....

What have the MIL guys learned? If this happens again (and it will) do the MIL guys keep setting off RA's in CIV aircraft?

This happened on the east coast with airliners....

 

[cjdriver]

Did the civilian traffic exercise good judgment by transiting an active MOA without talking to the controlling agency? MOA and their frequencies are clearly marked on a chart.

Nice, answer a question with a question.

 

[bagasticks]

My take on it is this: The area in an MOA is sort of like a public park. Some guys use the park to play their weekly softball games, so they sort of have "squatters rights", even though it's not official. It just happens to be where they play their games, and the park office is nice enough to post this on the bulletin board.

But it's a pretty big park, and kind of pain to walk around if nothing is going on. Further, even if there's a game in progress, chances are if you just walk around the edge, you won't get bonked with a softball.

Now it IS pretty rude just to cut through the park when a game is going on. Common courtesy.

OTOH, if you decide to just walk along the edge or cut the corner of their "outfield", you'd think the guys playing would just say "time out" for the 20 seconds it takes you to cut the corner.

But instead of that, the softball guys have decided that it's better to run up on you with a bat in their hand, get right up in your face, and poke you in the chest with their bat and say "you need to get off our field", when it really isn't their field (if it was, it'd be a restricted area).

Further, NOW they're torqued that you can see them running up on you, and can scoot around a bit to keep them at arms length.

But enough of that metaphor. Unless it's an official intercept for national security reasons, there is ZERO reason for any miltary aircraft to intentionally be within 1 mile or 1000 feet of any civilian aircraft.

Most civ guys are NOT trained in formation flying, and may be startled, causing unnecessary distraction and/or injury to persons if an evasive manuever or RA is followed.

Nu

All i can think of is that episode of the Tom Green show where he is in that plastic ball and he runs out onto an active softball field and the dudes playing are trying to punch him through the bubble. . .

As for the viper guys judgement ? ? flying over to have a look-see for situational awareness is hardly an intercept. If in fact he formed up/buzzed/shot at. . whatever the civvy, than yes judgement was questionable but according to the evidence that did not happen . .

 

[Scrapdog]

Learning: A change in behavior as a result of expereince.

The CIV guys all agree that going into a hot MOA is a bad idea.. and as said before... I think many have learned from this and won't....

What have the MIL guys learned? If this happens again (and it will) do the MIL guys keep setting off RA's in CIV aircraft?

This happened on the east coast with airliners....

And guess what dude, the CIV guys will continue to fly into hot MOA's (happened to me on multiple occasions where we had to knock off our entire fight and waste thousands of taxpayer dollars). So it will happen again - from the civ side as well. What have they learned? Absolutely nothing obviously.

 

[JungleJett]

Nice, answer a question with a question.

It is clear what happened on the civilian side since we have tapes and radar tracks. He clearly entered into a known active MOA and did NOT talk to the controlling agency. Poor judgement.

We DO NOT know exactly what the military guy did (other than what we see on the radar track which does not show an altitude readout). Some of the fighter folks here have stated that is is NOT uncommon to shadow the traffic to see what its plans are. Did that happen here, I (or you) do not know. What some PA turd said what happened means little...nope..nothing to me. I would like to hear from the pilot involved and those in his flight...and that will more than likely never happen.

Did the Viper guy exercise sound judgement..neither of us know. Did the guys who CLEARLY (we have undeniable proof of their actions) entered an active MOA without contacting the controlling agency exercise sound judgment, evidence shows that they did not.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And guess what dude, the CIV guys will continue to fly into hot MOA's

That is what I said. Comprehension?

So if you know that CIV guys use poor judgement and fly into hot MOA's... why do you get upset and whine when they do? It is joint airspace...

IOW why do you get yourself all up in a hissey fit (Danica style?) If MOA are joint use and CIV guys do this from time to time.. why are you surprised? Are you taking this personally?

(happened to me on multiple occasions where we had to knock off our entire fight and waste thousands of taxpayer dollars).

I never thought of tactical pilots as custodians of the taxpayers dollars. Is that a mission planning factor? Or have you been watching Top Gun again... you know when Maverick gets told he doesn't own that plane the taxpayers do....??

So it will happen again - from the civ side as well. What have they learned? Absolutely nothing obviously.

And yet you cant even admit that the F-16 pilot here used poor judgement. The reprimand doesn't even help your thinking.....

It is clear what happened on the civilian side since we have tapes and radar tracks. He clearly entered into a known active MOA and did NOT talk to the controlling agency. Poor judgement.

Fair enough... agreed. I think plenty of CIV pilots now know to stay away from MOAs. Now lets talk about the MIL guys.....

We DO NOT know exactly what the military guy did (other than what we see on the radar track which does not show an altitude readout).

I think we know what he did..... let's not be foolish here.. causing an RA and sending VFR traffic into IFR airspace... yea.. that is great "viper" judgement...

Some of the fighter folks here have stated that is is NOT uncommon to shadow the traffic to see what its plans are. Did that happen here, I (or you) do not know. What some PA turd said what happened means little...nope..nothing to me. I would like to hear from the pilot involved and those in his flight...and that will more than likely never happen.

Let's be real... between watching the video and the the reprimand, the F-16 pilot exercise poor judgement.

I have yet to hear a MIL guy on this board address this issue with integrity... who is flying our airplanes out there anyway? Cool headed prfoessionals or .......??

Did the Viper guy exercise sound judgement..neither of us know.

(don't tell anyone... but the F16 pilot was reprimanded)

Did the guys who CLEARLY (we have undeniable proof of their actions) entered an active MOA without contacting the controlling agency exercise sound judgment, evidence shows that they did not.

Unbelievable.....

 

[JungleJett]

Rez,

Again, can you tell me with absolute certainty what was going on in the cockpit of that Viper? Can you? Can you tell by looking at the radar track what his distance and relative altitude was when the "education" took place?

Can you also tell me what EXACTLY the "reprimand" consisted of and if it indeed happened?

Can you tell me that you would do EXACTLY what these civilian pilots did if you were able too? If so, put out a NOTAM when you fly so we all know to stay clear of you while you exercise "sound judgment."

I am not a fighter pilot and do not know how they operate while in a MOA, plenty here and enlightened me as to the SOP while in a MOA and that MOA is penetrated by a civilian AC. I have no problems with what they would do to insure both their SAFETY and MINE! I would rather them knock it off, monitor my activities and make sure I was well clear before going to back to work. But then again, I would NEVER transit an active MOA without talking to the controlling agency and getting a good feeling that I could do it safely and with minimum impact on the military operations. While I was a student pilot, we had a MOA just north of our airport that consumed a great deal of airspace. Cutting a corner through would sometimes save us 45 minutes (small Cessna). On occasion, I would ask as the status of the MOA and if it was hot, I would go around or they would offer some vectors through it to deconflict with operations. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it did not. No big deal. Communication is the key...

I will answer this question and will correct your spelling as well:

"I have yet to hear a MIL guy on this board address this issue with integrity... who is flying our airplanes out there anyway? Cool headed professionals or .......??"

Plenty here have attempted to explain what MIGHT have happened and have questioned the pilots motives. You simply choose to ignore that. My question would be to you "Who is out there flying around civilian airplanes when their judgment is clearly questionable." Your 40 hours of flight time may have gotten you a license...but it clearly has not taught you judgment.

 

[cjdriver]

I think it's reasonable to say from looking at the radar track that the fighter aggressively turned and pursued the civ. This is irrefutable. This is much poorer judgement being displayed than the civ demonstrated. I doubt that the majority of mil pilot's have this poor judgement. I would hope this guy is an anomaly and is mitigated as a risk factor in the system.

 

[JungleJett]

CJ...what was his altitude?