17 Dead in Montanta

Storm Chaser

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Posts
49
Total Time
3000+
Max pax for the PC-12 is 9 pax plus pilots. So I doubt the 17 number. Typical of the MSM, more important to get the story out first and worry about the facts later!

Flight aware has it as N128CM.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all those families effected.
 
Last edited:

jonjuan

Honey Ryder
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Posts
4,155
Total Time
3,000+
Max pax for the PC-12 is 9 pax plus pilots. So I doubt the 17 number. Typical of the MSM, more important to get the story out first and worry about the facts later!

Flight aware has it as N128CM.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all those families effected.
It's 17.
 

Amish RakeFight

Registered Loser
Joined
Dec 28, 2005
Posts
8,006
Total Time
.
It's 14 but 7 were kids so could be the reason for more than the allowed. Terrible.
 

Hawker800

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Posts
316
Total Time
5300
Interesting to know why the flight diverted to Butte instead of going to Bozeman as planned. Anyone know the weather in Bozeman at the time?
 

hooker

Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Posts
12
Total Time
.7
what about the reg only 12pax in a single in the US? Its tight with 8 pax in a PC! Unless this was a useal more money than brains situation and he had stuffed with kids cause "there small its ok!"?
 

Andy Neill

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,293
Total Time
6200
what about the reg only 12pax in a single in the US? Its tight with 8 pax in a PC! Unless this was a useal more money than brains situation and he had stuffed with kids cause "there small its ok!"?
Which part is that reg in?
 

G-force

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Posts
10,611
Total Time
5200 +
Re:Aircraft Type??????

Are we absolutely certain of the aircraft type???I hope we are not going to trust the news media to get this right!!!!!
 
Last edited:

Andy Neill

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,293
Total Time
6200
Are we absolutely certain of the aircraft type???I hope we are not going to trust the news media to get this right!!!!!
A PC-12 did go from Oroville to Butte yesterday according to flightaware.
 

flyinloki

R.I.P. Dan and Terry
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Posts
156
Total Time
.00001
Yup it was a PC-12 and they for sure had too many people on board. The last FBO where they got fuel at the line guy said the kids just kept climbing out of the plane when they landed. A whole bunch of them. The Operator who owned this aircraft should be put in jail if he was involved with putting that many people in that aircraft. Something around 15 to 17 people.
 

CitationCapt

STILL determined
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Posts
229
Total Time
8000
Btm

I flew freight in and out of BTM many years back. There are two cemeteries on the west side of the airport and if memory serves me Holy Cross Cemetery is south of the terminal and Butte Aviation.

Looking at flightaware, this guy was coming from the southwest (from the Salmon VOR). No radar coverage below 10,800'.

The wind on the last METAR was 300@8 favoring runway 33. Could he have been on a 45 for a right downwind to runway 15, then just turning downwind he decided to make a 180 right over the Holy Cross Cemetery and enter a left downwind for 33, at which point the PC-12 got too slow?

I know, speculation, speculation. My Bad.

CC
 

Cujo69

New member
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Posts
1
Total Time
3200
PC-12 crash

I agree with everyone about media mistakes. That is why I wait a couple days for them to get most of the details ironed out.

Most PC-12s have 6 or 8 seat configs. in the cabin. There is a config. with 9 seats in the back but very few have this. Even with 9 in the cabin plus 2 in the cockpit that leaves 3 children that would have to be under the ages of 24 months for this to be technically legal. It appears that only one child was under 2.

What no one knows is how much gear they had for a ski trip for 14 people. It will be very difficult to determine where the CG was toward the end of this flight. Even with the small children, I am amazed that someone would load 14 people on this plane.
 

NJAowner

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2003
Posts
748
Total Time
2000+
This one kept me up last night. We fly in the mountains of MT and WY often. Let's not speculate since we don't know the facts.


It is possible that with kids that young the kids' ski gear is small and light. Or if they had a ski home in the area, most of the gear could be there and not in the plane. Unfortunately, we don't know.

Fly safe.
 

Snakum

How's your marmott?
Joined
Feb 21, 2002
Posts
2,090
Total Time
Little
Let's not speculate since we don't know the facts.
Here we go again ....

We're not speculating, so much as sharing info. Many of us here fly these same kinds of missions or even the same aircraft. And I for one want to know everything I can about what MIGHT have happened from those more experienced than I. If you don't want to read it ... don't click the thread.
 

Snakum

How's your marmott?
Joined
Feb 21, 2002
Posts
2,090
Total Time
Little
I flew freight in and out of BTM many years back. There are two cemeteries on the west side of the airport and if memory serves me Holy Cross Cemetery is south of the terminal and Butte Aviation.

Looking at flightaware, this guy was coming from the southwest (from the Salmon VOR). No radar coverage below 10,800'.

The wind on the last METAR was 300@8 favoring runway 33. Could he have been on a 45 for a right downwind to runway 15, then just turning downwind he decided to make a 180 right over the Holy Cross Cemetery and enter a left downwind for 33, at which point the PC-12 got too slow?

I know, speculation, speculation. My Bad.

CC
IIRC, the stall speed on a PC12 in landing config is very low. But considering he was most likely overweight and in a turn ... it could be something like this indeed happened.

One of the first things my mentor drilled into me was that saying "No" to taking off with too little fuel, too many passengers, or into bad weather might one day save my life. I feel for this guy's family ... but he blew this one. Fourteen pax in a PC12 ... anyone who'd be talked into doing that is likely capable of all sorts of idiocy.

And another thing ... every time something like this happens it reflects on all charter and corp pilots. All of us. The perception becomes that we're cowboys or somehow less-well-trained than our airline counterparts (and that is a wee bit true, actually, to an extent). This one was pilot error. I'd bet my left testicle.
 

CitationCapt

STILL determined
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Posts
229
Total Time
8000
Speculation

NJAOwner--- hardly one qualified to speculate of course. Since you are an "owner", how many times have you and your friends come to attempt to overload your airplane for the wary crew? I've flown many supplemental trips for NJA and have seen this myself.

The guy in the back is hardly in a position to speculate from a pilot's perspective.

CC
 
Last edited:

Andy Neill

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
2,293
Total Time
6200
...And another thing ... every time something like this happens it reflects on all charter and corp pilots.
That's an aspect that isn't yet clear to me.
What was the likely arrangement to make this flight happen?
Was the aircraft leased long-term from the Oregon company?
Was the purpose of the flight to take the families of the CEO of the California company from California to Montana?
Was the pilot a regular employee of that CEO?

If so, all those point to a valid Part 91 flight with the only certain issue being carrying more people over age 2 than the number of seat blets provided. Neither Part 91/135 issues nor seat belts provided were the cause of the accident, but will be mentioned in the final.
 

o2bflyn

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Posts
482
Total Time
>40
NJAOwner--- hardly one qualified to speculate of course. Since you are an "owner", how many times have you and your friends come to attempt to overload your airplane for the wary crew? I've flown many supplemental trips for NJA and have seen this myself.

The guy in the back is hardly in a position to speculate from a pilot's perspective.

CC
That did not sound like speculation to me. It sounded more like a thoery, a suggestion.

How many times have you speculated over out current banking system/economy? Let's not get all spun up just because someone is offering a theory.

Plus, how do you know he/she is not a pilot? I know plenty of owner/passengers who are rated pilots.
 
Last edited:
Top