17 Dead in Montanta

[Snakum]

Let's not speculate since we don't know the facts.

Here we go again ....

We're not speculating, so much as sharing info. Many of us here fly these same kinds of missions or even the same aircraft. And I for one want to know everything I can about what MIGHT have happened from those more experienced than I. If you don't want to read it ... don't click the thread.

 

[Snakum]

I flew freight in and out of BTM many years back. There are two cemeteries on the west side of the airport and if memory serves me Holy Cross Cemetery is south of the terminal and Butte Aviation.

Looking at flightaware, this guy was coming from the southwest (from the Salmon VOR). No radar coverage below 10,800'.

The wind on the last METAR was 300@8 favoring runway 33. Could he have been on a 45 for a right downwind to runway 15, then just turning downwind he decided to make a 180 right over the Holy Cross Cemetery and enter a left downwind for 33, at which point the PC-12 got too slow?

I know, speculation, speculation. My Bad.

CC

IIRC, the stall speed on a PC12 in landing config is very low. But considering he was most likely overweight and in a turn ... it could be something like this indeed happened.

One of the first things my mentor drilled into me was that saying "No" to taking off with too little fuel, too many passengers, or into bad weather might one day save my life. I feel for this guy's family ... but he blew this one. Fourteen pax in a PC12 ... anyone who'd be talked into doing that is likely capable of all sorts of idiocy.

And another thing ... every time something like this happens it reflects on all charter and corp pilots. All of us. The perception becomes that we're cowboys or somehow less-well-trained than our airline counterparts (and that is a wee bit true, actually, to an extent). This one was pilot error. I'd bet my left testicle.

 

[CitationCapt]

Speculation

NJAOwner--- hardly one qualified to speculate of course. Since you are an "owner", how many times have you and your friends come to attempt to overload your airplane for the wary crew? I've flown many supplemental trips for NJA and have seen this myself.

The guy in the back is hardly in a position to speculate from a pilot's perspective.

CC

 

[Andy Neill]

...And another thing ... every time something like this happens it reflects on all charter and corp pilots.

That's an aspect that isn't yet clear to me.
What was the likely arrangement to make this flight happen?
Was the aircraft leased long-term from the Oregon company?
Was the purpose of the flight to take the families of the CEO of the California company from California to Montana?
Was the pilot a regular employee of that CEO?

If so, all those point to a valid Part 91 flight with the only certain issue being carrying more people over age 2 than the number of seat blets provided. Neither Part 91/135 issues nor seat belts provided were the cause of the accident, but will be mentioned in the final.

 

[o2bflyn]

NJAOwner--- hardly one qualified to speculate of course. Since you are an "owner", how many times have you and your friends come to attempt to overload your airplane for the wary crew? I've flown many supplemental trips for NJA and have seen this myself.

The guy in the back is hardly in a position to speculate from a pilot's perspective.

CC

That did not sound like speculation to me. It sounded more like a thoery, a suggestion.

How many times have you speculated over out current banking system/economy? Let's not get all spun up just because someone is offering a theory.

Plus, how do you know he/she is not a pilot? I know plenty of owner/passengers who are rated pilots.

 

[lowtimedriver]

Icing is now being looked as per the NTSB.

 

[DBacks]

Icing? Was there weather enroute? The pic that I'm looking at showing the burning wreckage shows a crystal clear day with the sun out.

 

[jimmyw]

Was this single piloted? If so here we go again people with $$ but ok trusting the health and judgement of one pilot. A risk I'm sure not presented in the trip quote to these surely innocent pax's

 

[DBacks]

Nevermind, guess I was wrong. Just read an article about the possibility of ice on descent.

 

[o2bflyn]

Icing? Was there weather enroute? The pic that I'm looking at showing the burning wreckage shows a crystal clear day with the sun out.

I heard that they were looking at that too.....Not sure why, but that's what I heard.

 

[CelticCitation]

Everybody seems to be blaming their favorite issue on this one. Single pilot? It was a 91 trip, if there was a "quote," it was an illegal charter.

The NTSB reps that have indicated ice, also stated that icing in turboprops is something they have been pushing the FAA to tighten their certification standards for. Now there is an accident, and that is the first cause out of their mouth.

Single engine pax carrying IFR? Only a few people have implicated that. I'm sure if there is a failure of some sort, the Pilatus people will be thrilled.

Personally, I think it is because of the low pay pilots are forced into because of the economy. I'm trying to figure a way to blame Obama, but I'll have to get back to you. If Bush were still around...

 

[o2bflyn]

Everybody seems to be blaming their favorite issue on this one. Single pilot? It was a 91 trip, if there was a "quote," it was an illegal charter.

The NTSB reps that have indicated ice, also stated that icing in turboprops is something they have been pushing the FAA to tighten their certification standards for. Now there is an accident, and that is the first cause out of their mouth.

Single engine pax carrying IFR? Only a few people have implicated that. I'm sure if there is a failure of some sort, the Pilatus people will be thrilled.

Personally, I think it is because of the low pay pilots are forced into because of the economy. I'm trying to figure a way to blame Obama, but I'll have to get back to you. If Bush were still around...

1. you can have a quote for a 91 operation. Its called a lease agreement. Very legal. Someone with an existing lease agreement wants to know how much the flight will cost him.....bang, there is a quote.

2. Low-pay pilot? You know how much this guy was making? just because he is flying a PC-12 does not mean he was low pay.

 

[NJAowner]

From what I just read on AP it quoted the owner of the plane who was the father of 2 of the women and grandfather of 5 of the children aboard. Very sad story.

Fly safe.

 

[CelticCitation]

You didn't completely miss my point. Ok, maybe you did.

As soon as there is an accident, everyone uses it to justify their cause.

I have no idea what the pilot makes, but my issue right now is pilot wages are dropping, therefore, that is what I think caused the accident.

In this particular case, I can't imagine someone with a lease arrangement not understanding that it is a single pilot operation. My point being, Jimmyw took his personal issue of Single Pilot ops, and immediately tagged that as the cause of the crash. Not arguing either side of that particular issue, there is no evidence at this point that anything regarding to one or two pilots on the airplane was causal to the crash.

 

[7KCAB]

You could fly through an SLD layer at altitude, pick up ice that goes behind the protected areas, and if the temperature is below freezing all the way down, it wouldn't become a problem until you slowed down or even until when you put the flaps down. Seems like most aircraft flight manuals say to make a zero-flap landing and increase Vref speeds by a considerable margin if there is ice present aft of the protected areas. Of course, you can't see the tail, but if it is on the wings aft of the boots, it most likely is on the tail aft of the boots as well.

Just one of many possible reasons for this accident. The frustrating thing is we may never know exactly what happened here for certain since it was non-radar, no FDR, and there were no radio communications indicating anything was wrong.