1108 Union Leadership Abandons Hostages

[CA1900]

Also ... wont it be cheaper for the company if they only hire unmarried males ... Why bear the cost of medical benefits to people who have families or might become pregnant?

Even better, we could get rid of that medical coverage right now if it weren't for that pesky CBA!

 

[brokeflyer]

if people get furloughed then I feel bad for them. But once you take a pay cut, you'll never get it back.

so that avenue aint gonna work.

our "industry leading" contraxt falls WAY short of being able to give concessions.

 

[B19 Flyer]

I gotta agree with 19.

Unions suck.

Why should furloughs go by seniority order? The company can make more money furloughing more senior people who have invested More of their lives with a company.

Better to hire, use people up and then furlough when their pay grows too much higher than someone we can fetch off the street.

Why should people feel more secure in their jobs at a company as they invest more of their lives into it? Better to keep them more worried and on their toes. In fear always for their jobs.

Also ... wont it be cheaper for the company if they only hire unmarried males ... Why bear the cost of medical benefits to people who have families or might become pregnant?

Older folks ... they get sick more often. Should be furloughed first.

Yes I gotta agree with 19.

You need to read. My complaint isn't about furloughing in order of seniority, although I do believe that when it's all about survival I do want the best around me.

My complaint about how unions handle industry downturns is that they will sacrifice the bottom third of the seniority and retain the high pay with overtime rather than not take overtime and allow more jobs to be saved by opening the contract.

The saddest part of all is the sacrifice the rest of the company needs to make to pay for an expensive CBA when times get tough. Everybody else has their pay cut first, then the layoffs happen while all the union members drain company resources.

Yes, unions suck.

 

[brokeflyer]

here's what really happened....

Our conntract falls way short of what we should be making. The cost of a flight crew is extremly low here. You don't walk into office max and tell them you'll pay $3 for that pack of pencils when they are marked at $5?

no, cause that is what they cost. A 5 year captain SHOULD be making about $185,000/yr. So you see, regardless of the economy, we have a long way to go.

as far as the furlough?, well that can happen regardless of what we "negotiate". NJ does something like 2 bilion per year in business, so our whopping 30 million per year in salaries don't even make the accountant squirm yet.

I tihnk unions suck too, I guess you shoulda just got hired sooner. If i was low on the list I wouldn't be crying about giving money back to save my job. That would only hurt ALL the employees.

you can't have it both ways.

 

[gunfyter]

You need to read. My complaint isn't about furloughing in order of seniority, although I do believe that when it's all about survival I do want the best around me.

My complaint about how unions handle industry downturns is that they will sacrifice the bottom third of the seniority and retain the high pay with overtime rather than not take overtime and allow more jobs to be saved by opening the contract.

The saddest part of all is the sacrifice the rest of the company needs to make to pay for an expensive CBA when times get tough. Everybody else has their pay cut first, then the layoffs happen while all the union members drain company resources.

Yes, unions suck.

How would opening up a contract save ANY jobs?

If there are airplanes that need to be moved ... Pilots are needed to move them no matter what they are paid.

If planes do not meed to move ... the pilots are Not needed and WILL BE furloughed .... No jobs will be saved by concessions.

Right now we have not furloughed ... but since flying is down industry-wide by about 30% ... obviously management can furlough ANY TIME they want.

Its only the fact that we have a Great management team with a good relationship with the Union ... that we have not had any furlough yet. I know our management and union are taking Every Step to avoid furlough. But the ONLY thing that will avoid furlough is MORE FLYING.... However the SLOW SEASON is only a couple of months away. I think thats why the companies who have furloughed have just announced them this week.

But taking concessions will NOT increase our flying or Sales ... It would therefore Not save Any Jobs....

The Other carriers in our industry have NO CBA ... yet they have furloughed ... Management has all the discretion they need to change the conditions of employment ... Have jobs been saved? No.

Furloughs have nothing to do with the presence of a union or no union. But when the furlough is over ... Pilots will return to very good jobs and benefits that the union helps to preserve for them.

 

[Fedmagnet]

Ignore B19 (Bob)

He is just here to convince a few sheep to believe that Flops will look out for their best interest.
What flavor of cool-aid are you serving this month Bob?

 

[Fedmagnet]

Yet another day has gone by with no contract. While Ricci and the guy that controls the IBT1108 has had a bumper year.

 

[Fedmagnet]

We have SFO on the negociation table but "hostage return" is nolonger.

Union leadership response; "What hostages?" :cartman:

Ricci is laughing his azz off.

 

[OldCrow]

Who would that be?

"and the guy that controls the IBT1108 has had a bumper year."
Are you talking about National Level, or the MEC? If it is the later,
I would really like to hear how that could be. They are just line Pilots, like
the rest of us...and doing our bidding, AND don't get to fly. How could that be a "bumper year"?

 

[Fedmagnet]

I had a whole page of an explanation typed out and it all dumped when I clicked SUBMIT.
But here is the short answer.

The consultant: RD.
If you don't believe me just ask him. If you ask MS he will have to confer with the consultant and get back to you, either way a few more hours will be charged to the War Chest.

It is my opinion that the consultant will suddenly loose interest in the negotiations between Flight Options and their pilots when the war chest runs dry.

 

[Mike Jenvey]

<<<< I had a whole page of an explanation typed out and it all dumped when I clicked SUBMIT.>>>>

Had same problem on this site & others too. Top tip - either copy your text before hitting SUBMIT, or, use a Word/text document to compose your reply & then copy/paste to the forum reply window. Either way, you don't lose things.

 

[glasspilot]

I've used the back button on my browser. It reloads the page with you text still there.

 

[Fedmagnet]

I tried the back button but it came back to a blank page.
I started off with a short reply and started getting excited and got into it and lost track of time. :0 I have done this to myself a few times.
The copy and paste is a good method but I forgot again.

It was a work of art! :cartman:

 

[DUATS]

So if we were paid less, the company may not lay off employee's? Really? So they are going to pay people to just sit around and do nothing? If a company is overstaffed why would the keep paying idled workers?
I would be like a contractor paying carpenters (sub's) when there is no building to be done.
I just don't understand the logic.
.

GM did exactly that for years. It was called the "jobs bank".

Didn't seem to work so well for them. Union membership at GM dropped from 600,000 to 60,000 before the bankruptcy. It will be about 40,000 after.

 

[DUATS]

You need to read. My complaint isn't about furloughing in order of seniority, although I do believe that when it's all about survival I do want the best around me.

My complaint about how unions handle industry downturns is that they will sacrifice the bottom third of the seniority and retain the high pay with overtime rather than not take overtime and allow more jobs to be saved by opening the contract.

The saddest part of all is the sacrifice the rest of the company needs to make to pay for an expensive CBA when times get tough. Everybody else has their pay cut first, then the layoffs happen while all the union members drain company resources.

Yes, unions suck.

I think you both get a bit of this right. Unions are often needed to ensure that when business circumstances require a furlough that it is done in an orderly and fair fashion.

But I think it is also true that in SOME CASES senior employees cajole junior members to vote the union in so they can see what they hope will be a big raise. But as soon as the union is voted in, there is a move towards protecting the top, not the entire membership. This has been seen not only in aviation, but other industries. I remember years ago a mining company offered the union the choice: 20% pay cut, or 20% job cut. 80% of the membership voted to cut the jobs. That isn't a truly union mentality.

It would be much easier to support a union if I knew all the union members would support the junior guys.

 

[brokeflyer]

yup that may very well be true. It's a shame that greedy management causes that to happen. It's sad that we need a union in this industry since the pilots are the ones that directly do all the work.

 

[DUATS]

yup that may very well be true. It's a shame that greedy management causes that to happen. It's sad that we need a union in this industry since the pilots are the ones that directly do all the work.

But when management tries to screw labor and push comes to shove, do you think most senior frac pilots would "look out for number one", or look out for the entire membership?

 

[Helmsalee]

As would most junior or middle seniority frac pilots. Or any pilots or any person for that matter. For me it would be God, family, country, profession (call it job, company or whatever). Perhaps you would rearrange the first 3, but I doubt the last would move up.

BTW, it is not always senior screwing junior. I have seen junior throw senior under the bus because they had more power (read votes) and could. I have also seen all work together for the betterment of everyone and this is what we need.

 

[TurboHonda]

As would most junior or middle seniority frac pilots. Or any pilots or any person for that matter. For me it would be God, family, country, profession (call it job, company or whatever). Perhaps you would rearrange the first 3, but I doubt the last would move up.

BTW, it is not always senior screwing junior. I have seen junior throw senior under the bus because they had more power (read votes) and could. I have also seen all work together for the betterment of everyone and this is what we need.

You just described why a contract takes forever to achieve, it it’s achieved at all. Instead of having any semblance of solidarity the pilot group is made up of a bunch of individuals justifying their own selfish agenda. They’re too quick to join a “brotherhood” but don’t really consider their “brothers” brothers and certainly don’t act like a brother themselves.

They fall back on clichés like God, Family, etc., but don’t think of their “brother” as family.

In my generation there was a thing called self respect. It took precedence over almost everything. It couldn’t be bought, taught, faked, or sold. You either had it or you didn’t. Too many pilots don’t even know what I’m talking about. Management knows what I’m talking about and they use it (or the lack of it) to their own advantage.

 

[brokeflyer]

yup....and it could all be avoided if management didn't try to rape a company into the ground and screw its employees.

Unfortunate, but until they treat everyone fair, this is the world we live in.