10/250

[T-1GUY]

To add, my day doesn't stop at your "Got to get 12 hours to make the metrics look good", the taxi driver doesn't magically appear at the plane at 12:01, the ride to the hotel is not via "beam me there", the check in process in not always "Sir, we have been waiting for you, here is your key and your room is ready.." The FAA finally gave 121 crews an hour to deal with this reality, but not 135. My ten hour rest clock started at 12:01, but I am no where near to putting my head on a pillow and getting some much needed shut eye...

 

[msculley6905]

I call fatigued as necessary.

Do you want some advice on how to do your job?

There is absolutely no need whatsoever to tack on 4 hours of TNTV at 2300-0300 in the middle of Montana, except to make your lines look pretty on a computer, or to prove a point to us. We all see it, we all know it, we all expect it. On duty at the hotel in case you need us? Fine. At the airport, you're just being mean (and stupid, and wasteful (many times the FBO charges an after hour fee up to $200/hour to keep us there)). Plain and simple.

You want the fatigues to go away? Do away with the 0500 show for a 1200 go. Even if you assign duty at the hotel, we don't go back to sleep. We aren't robots who can flip a switch on and off. Once the alarm goes off, I'm up for at least 10 hours. If you don't need me until 1100 for a 1200, then assign me an 1100 show. 0500 is stupid and wasteful. Plain and simple.

You want the fatigues to go away? Stop assigning 4 hours of TNTV after a 4 leg day to get us to 12 hours of duty (it's a limit. Not a goal). The only reason to do it is to make your lines look pretty on a computer, or to prove a point. We all see it, we all know it, we all expect it. Plain and simple.

I understand the need for a hot spare. If you need it, then assign it. If you want your line to be pretty, then you aren't running a smart schedule. It is stupid and wasteful. Plain and simple.

Let me know if you need more lessons on how to do your job better. I'd welcome feedback from you too on how to fly better and take better care of the owners.

With bated breath I wait,

Fischman

Generally speaking, in the very rare case you ever get a brief to SHOW at 2300 ANYWHERE, it's for a reason. If not, then I agree with you it's a huge waste. But very early or very late trips need special attention since there are very few crews that can recover if needed. Needs of the business dictates it, crazy at it seems.

Everything you've mentioned is a contradiction to the needs of the business. We are not a static flight schedule. Flexibility is needed all over the place, at all times of the day, regardless of location. 1 break, 1 fatugue, 1 sick call usually means a minimum of 5 trips change. Long show gos are a necessity as the schedule morphs from the most efficient to the fastest/least impact to the owner as current day juggles the madness.

If everyone had a 1 hr show/go, do you have any idea how screwy things would get? Recovery time would be through the roof, and that is not an acceptable practice.

10 hour turns, while understandably fatiguing multiple days in a row, are a practice that is generally avoided with us, and used only in times of need, not just to be punitive or to put the screws to you.

I am not a pilot, so I cannot offer you any suggestions on how to fly. Likewise, you are not a scheduler, so while your suggestions are appreciated, they do not always fit with how the operation works. Believe it or not, we (well, I know I do at least) try to take in consideration all the things you mention, since after all, a happy pilot is a productive pilot, meaning better results for everyone. But our job is to produce a schedule with no delays and no downgrades, and as efficient as possible after meeting those two criteria....but unfortunately, we sometimes have to do all the things you mentioned above to produce that. it's the need of the business.

 

[msculley6905]

When your boss tells me, to my face, that they won't consider circadian rhythms because then his software "doesn't work as well," that tells me quite a bit.

not sure of which boss you speak of, but it doesn't really matter. A simple suggestion...call and ask, the earlier the better too, that's why you have the next day brief function...worst case is someone says no, best case is you get it changed to work better for you...but that likely puts someone else into your previous predicament. Can't make everyone happy unfortunately

 

[BentOver]

Msculley,

No offense, you are a scheduler. The qualifications between you and the pilots is not even close.... The pilots should get more and deserve more and are rightfully higher up the food chain.. It's the way it is...

Every aviation company I've worked at (6) has had someone complain to me about how the pilots make so much more than them.. From ground handlers to fuelers, to flight attendants.... I give them a blank stare because of how ridiculous they sound... Requirements of a ground handler...able to lift 45 lbs... Pretty much the same for the rest.. Want to get started on requirements to reach professional level of pilots?

 

[msculley6905]

To add, my day doesn't stop at your "Got to get 12 hours to make the metrics look good", the taxi driver doesn't magically appear at the plane at 12:01, the ride to the hotel is not via "beam me there", the check in process in not always "Sir, we have been waiting for you, here is your key and your room is ready.." The FAA finally gave 121 crews an hour to deal with this reality, but not 135. My ten hour rest clock started at 12:01, but I am no where near to putting my head on a pillow and getting some much needed shut eye...

call and get your rest adjusted...that's your right and ability to do so. ...then, as fisch stated, that crew with the 7 hour show/go gets your trip if an owner impact is created. the schedule is built to try and handle issues just like these

 

[msculley6905]

Msculley,

No offense, you are a scheduler. The qualifications between you and the pilots is not even close.... The pilots should get more and deserve more and are rightfully higher up the food chain.. It's the way it is...

Every aviation company I've worked at (6) has had someone complain to me about how the pilots make so much more than them.. From ground handlers to fuelers, to flight attendants.... I give them a blank stare because of how ridiculous they sound... Requirements of a ground handler...able to lift 45 lbs... Pretty much the same for the rest.. Want to get started on requirements to reach professional level of pilots?

Not once did I suggest the pilots currently make too much, or that I deserve what they get....no argument from me there at all. They're a much more integral/trained/specialized cog in the operation than I. How did you manage to pull that out of anything I've said?

 

[CA1900]

not sure of which boss you speak of, but it doesn't really matter. A simple suggestion...call and ask..."

Tried that repeatedly. Invariably, I get a reply of, "see how you feel in the morning and call us then." No matter how many times I explain that a 5am Eastern show has this west coaster waking up at MIDNIGHT on my body clock, it falls on deaf ears.

Believe me, we don't want to disrupt the schedule with a fatigue call any more than you want to deal with the fallout. Actually heeding circadian rhythms and the science behind it would go a long way towards preventing these early morning scrambles.

Just to pick an example, I recently had three nights of 7pm-4am work. I do fine with those, and adapted my sleep patterns to it. However, on the fourth planned night of it, the plug was pulled after just an hour, and I was assigned a 6am show.

I'm treated as the bad guy when I call in and explain that I can't do that. The ensuing chaos could have been prevented by realizing that, while a swing like that works on paper, it doesn't work in reality.

We're not trying to tell you how to schedule. We're just trying to explain that, as humans, we can only bend our sleep schedules so much. It would behoove the scheduling department to factor that in to prevent surprises.

 

[Cavpilot]

since you're on the topic of growing up, let me dumb it down so an immature child like yourself could understand

There's a great way to win over hearts and minds! At least Family Guy had some eloquence.

I'd like to see the union's projection on the bottom-line impact of 10/250 over the next, say, 8 years, as more and more PICs get tenure. I don't claim to know specifics, but I know reality. Seems you claim know specifics, but not reality

I remember in 2005 the Assistant DO telling me that we were going to go out of business because of the ridiculous contract that was just signed. In reality what happened was the golden age of NetJets where RTS's accountants couldn't find anyplace to hide all the money that was being made. Don't believe the BS this EMT is feeding you.

You claim to have been a NetJets employee fort he last five years. That makes you senior to JH and about the same longevity as one of our furloughed pilots. Most of us have been here at least twice as long as you. We know what this company can be and should be. We can spot a management troll from a mile away, so do yourself a favor and stop sparring with Fischman, your're only making yourself look foolish.

 

[fischman]

Generally speaking, in the very rare case you ever get a brief to SHOW at 2300 ANYWHERE, it's for a reason. If not, then I agree with you it's a huge waste. But very early or very late trips need special attention since there are very few crews that can recover if needed. Needs of the business dictates it, crazy at it seems.

Everything you've mentioned is a contradiction to the needs of the business. We are not a static flight schedule. Flexibility is needed all over the place, at all times of the day, regardless of location. 1 break, 1 fatugue, 1 sick call usually means a minimum of 5 trips change. Long show gos are a necessity as the schedule morphs from the most efficient to the fastest/least impact to the owner as current day juggles the madness.

If everyone had a 1 hr show/go, do you have any idea how screwy things would get? Recovery time would be through the roof, and that is not an acceptable practice.

10 hour turns, while understandably fatiguing multiple days in a row, are a practice that is generally avoided with us, and used only in times of need, not just to be punitive or to put the screws to you.

I am not a pilot, so I cannot offer you any suggestions on how to fly. Likewise, you are not a scheduler, so while your suggestions are appreciated, they do not always fit with how the operation works. Believe it or not, we (well, I know I do at least) try to take in consideration all the things you mention, since after all, a happy pilot is a productive pilot, meaning better results for everyone. But our job is to produce a schedule with no delays and no downgrades, and as efficient as possible after meeting those two criteria....but unfortunately, we sometimes have to do all the things you mentioned above to produce that. it's the need of the business.

Where's my BS flag???

All of that can be accomplished by leaving us on duty at the hotel instead of the FBO. You guys did it at NJI for years.

Metrics! Crew utilization numbers! It has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the needs of the business.

 

[jonjuan]

The qualifications between you and the pilots is not even close....

lol..........:laugh:

 

[fischman]

We're not trying to tell you how to schedule. We're just trying to explain that, as humans, we can only bend our sleep schedules so much. It would behoove the scheduling department to factor that in to prevent surprises.

Actually, I am. A little...

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Care to elaborate on my skewed view on reality? What do we do that keeps you from getting the job done? (PM me if you want some real answers to your questions) As far as I know it's all legal based on your last mutually agreed upon contract with the company. Perhaps you'd like a 10 hr max duty day for 10/250 as well?

How about flipping the switch on the fatigue mitigation software? The rubber band is stretched pretty tight these days operationally speaking. I believe the Intent of the CBA language regarding max duty periods was for extenuating circumstances....as they are at the airlines. It was never meant as a normal practice of scheduling crews in the dynamic fractional environment. Regardless that will change in the next CBA. I do agree with you that there should be raises for the good folks at Bridgeway as well. Good luck securing yours.

 

[msculley6905]

Where's my BS flag???

All of that can be accomplished by leaving us on duty at the hotel instead of the FBO. You guys did it at NJI for years.

Metrics! Crew utilization numbers! It has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the needs of the business.

Again, hotel duty is designated by the current day folks, different group than I, but the major reason I imagine is recovery time if needed. Calling a crew out of the hotel often will take upwards of 2 hours before being airborne (packing up, getting a ride, getting food, etc) where as if you're at the airport only an hour is needed from time of briefing. I'm not a big fan of metrics in a business like ours, but we all know recovery time is a selling point for us.

 

[msculley6905]

How about flipping the switch on the fatigue mitigation software? The rubber band is stretched pretty tight these days operationally speaking. I believe the Intent of the CBA language regarding max duty periods was for extenuating circumstances....as they are at the airlines. It was never meant as a normal practice of scheduling crews in the dynamic fractional environment. Regardless that will change in the next CBA. I do agree with you that there should be raises for the good folks at Bridgeway as well. Good luck securing yours.

Perhaps that software is being developed, but to my knowledge there is none other than a manual review, and trying to provide as much rest/consistent show times as possible.

 

[gutshotdraw]

call and get your rest adjusted...that's your right and ability to do so. ...then, as fisch stated, that crew with the 7 hour show/go gets your trip if an owner impact is created. the schedule is built to try and handle issues just like these

Cool. So that means I can call you and have my airline show/go changed to a time that actually gets me home when the sun is still up when I'm in East Godknowswhere with NO JET and NO CREW and yet my airline isn't until 5 PM local? Awesome.

Scheduling is a mess and we ALL know it. Your department wastes more money and screws more owners by noon than ANY pilot does in a year.