Flexjet, pilots...

[The Architect]

The Truth

These pilots will never be viewed again in the same way. And while aviation spans across the world, most find it is a very small world when it comes to employers and co-workers. So what does this mean?

Well, you can bicker about all of the many angles and effects, but the facts are this. Remove the union/non-union of the two properties and let's look at what they have gained and lost. The have gained another type rating and they gave gained a 401k match (maybe). They have lost longevity should they return to Flight Options.

Now, these are the genuine, up front real gains and loses. But, there really is more.

So, let's get this one out of the way. They lost employment under the protections of a collective bargaining agreement with a just cause provision. The gained "at will" employment. They lost union representation and all the protections it brings with it. But, they gained that uniform. (Had to throw that one in.)

So what else? What is really going to follow them forever. Well, we know this. One day Flexjet and Flight Options will merge. No doubt. And so will those seniority lists. So, one day those who chose to go to the former Flexjet will fly among the former Flight options pilots. Not good. People simply don't forget. That's not a threat. It's reality. It's human nature.

These pilots will forever be singled out. FOREVER. This move will forever be on their resumes. Will show up in their PRIA for some time. And will definitely be subject of any interview anywhere. Their integrity and loyalty will be questioned for the rest of their lives.

And it will go further. Every Flight Options pilots will know who they are by name, Flexjet pilots will know who they are by name, NJ pilots will know who they are, TMC pilots will know who they are, XO pilots will know who they are...and most probably...if they ever decide to TRY to go 121...well, the connection will be made. And let's not forget, for all of the above... management will know who they are.

There are some things in this industry you just don't do. The risk is too high. A move like this...well, the risk will most likely prove too high.

How will the Flexjet pilots really feel? Oh, some the people that have been busy lately, and have returned here in full force will argue all of the reasons why they shunned Flight Options. Owned by the same parent company, I remind you. But, what will the regular line pilot at Flexjet think about one of these guys? Let's see, they are on the bottom of the seniority list but making more money than those senior to them. They will be senior again one day because they will have more longevity when the lists are merged. And, they flipped sides for only the personal gain of a type and a 401k match. Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall a few months from now when one of these guys leaves the pilot lounge with their new Flexjet peers left in the room?

Now, time will tell. Maybe someone besides KR will view them as heroes. But I would bet not.

You can bicker about the move they made. You can bicker about which is the better place to work. You can bicker about who will fly what. You can bicker about which is the better property.

But, the truth is this. These properties will eventually operationally merge. The seniority lists will merge. And you will work together. The truth is these guys had the individual choice, they took it. They will live with it FOREVER.

And meanwhile..KR and his puppeteers, again laugh off of others backs.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

TWA I'll call your last remark FUD. Next, one of my friends is half way down the list and he hasn't been called. He thinks they are giving the guys at the top of the list a second call before going thru the whole list once. I smell something.....

I think the decision was made after the Gulfstream announcement to give people a second chance.

Wouldn't the same thing happen under your CBA if they added a new position to a bid? Or, does your fiend think that the seniority shouldn't matter and he should get first choice?

 

[DirtyBeech]

So my question would be why would Flops guys come over in droves after the G order? Most of those tails are 3+ years from fruition other than the 450's and they'll be junior on our list. Are they hoping to fill vacated seats in the 300 as Flex pilots take G positions? Are they wanting the G'a themselves? How do they hope to get them. I guess I don't understand why a three year wait Gulfstreams flips the switch. Help me understand.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

These pilots will never be viewed again in the same way. And while aviation spans across the world, most find it is a very small world when it comes to employers and co-workers. So what does this mean?

Well, you can bicker about all of the many angles and effects, but the facts are this. Remove the union/non-union of the two properties and let's look at what they have gained and lost. The have gained another type rating and they gave gained a 401k match (maybe). They have lost longevity should they return to Flight Options.

Now, these are the genuine, up front real gains and loses. But, there really is more.

So, let's get this one out of the way. They lost employment under the protections of a collective bargaining agreement with a just cause provision. The gained "at will" employment. They lost union representation and all the protections it brings with it. But, they gained that uniform. (Had to throw that one in.)

So what else? What is really going to follow them forever. Well, we know this. One day Flexjet and Flight Options will merge. No doubt. And so will those seniority lists. So, one day those who chose to go to the former Flexjet will fly among the former Flight options pilots. Not good. People simply don't forget. That's not a threat. It's reality. It's human nature.

These pilots will forever be singled out. FOREVER. This move will forever be on their resumes. Will show up in their PRIA for some time. And will definitely be subject of any interview anywhere. Their integrity and loyalty will be questioned for the rest of their lives.

And it will go further. Every Flight Options pilots will know who they are by name, Flexjet pilots will know who they are by name, NJ pilots will know who they are, TMC pilots will know who they are, XO pilots will know who they are...and most probably...if they ever decide to TRY to go 121...well, the connection will be made. And let's not forget, for all of the above... management will know who they are.

There are some things in this industry you just don't do. The risk is too high. A move like this...well, the risk will most likely prove too high.

How will the Flexjet pilots really feel? Oh, some the people that have been busy lately, and have returned here in full force will argue all of the reasons why they shunned Flight Options. Owned by the same parent company, I remind you. But, what will the regular line pilot at Flexjet think about one of these guys? Let's see, they are on the bottom of the seniority list but making more money than those senior to them. They will be senior again one day because they will have more longevity when the lists are merged. And, they flipped sides for only the personal gain of a type and a 401k match. Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall a few months from now when one of these guys leaves the pilot lounge with their new Flexjet peers left in the room?

Now, time will tell. Maybe someone besides KR will view them as heroes. But I would bet not.

You can bicker about the move they made. You can bicker about which is the better place to work. You can bicker about who will fly what. You can bicker about which is the better property.

But, the truth is this. These properties will eventually operationally merge. The seniority lists will merge. And you will work together. The truth is these guys had the individual choice, they took it. They will live with it FOREVER.

And meanwhile..KR and his puppeteers, again laugh off of others backs.

Call them what you really want to......SCABS.

They aren't, but that is how you are viewing them.

Oh yeah, they are exhibiting "scab like behavior" as one of your fellow brothers previously stated.

Only good thing about aviation is that people like you don't get to make the rules about what is and what isn't being a scab. It is clearly defined and last time I checked the FJ pilots aren't on strike.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

TWA=more FUD. The company would have to announce a new position is opening, then open the bid. " I think the decision was made after the Gulfstream announcement to give people a second chance." Sounds like they had trouble filling the class( of 3) before they had to offer another carrot.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So my question would be why would Flops guys come over in droves after the G order? Most of those tails are 3+ years from fruition other than the 450's and they'll be junior on our list. Are they hoping to fill vacated seats in the 300 as Flex pilots take G positions? Are they wanting the G'a themselves? How do they hope to get them. I guess I don't understand why a three year wait Gulfstreams flips the switch. Help me understand.

I think they see the growth at FJ and want to be part of that.

Maybe when you see them out flying th line later this year you can ask them.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

TWA=more FUD. The company would have to announce a new position is opening, then open the bid. " I think the decision was made after the Gulfstream announcement to give people a second chance." Sounds like they had trouble filling the class( of 3) before they had to offer another carrot.

The first class of 4 was already full before the Gulfstream announcement.

Not sure what you are talking about. You must be getting more bad information.

 

[The Architect]

Never Said

Call them what you really want to......SCABS.

They aren't, but that is how you are viewing them.

Oh yeah, they are exhibiting "scab like behavior" as one of your fellow brothers previously stated.

Only good thing about aviation is that people like you don't get to make the rules about what is and what isn't being a scab. It is clearly defined and last time I checked the FJ pilots aren't on strike.

Let me make this clear. I never said nor intended for these pilots to be call scabs. So, get this on record JM. These pilots are NOT scabs.

Stop trying to twist my words. It won't work.

On the other hand, you raised the topic and name calling. Are you insinuating these guys are scabs? When you see them, how will they feel that you made reference to them as scabs. Nice.

By the way, the definition for a scab is much more encompassing to some the just related to strikes. For example:

Employee who (1) continues to work during strike action at the place of work, (2) accepts work where strike action is going on, (3) takes work in a non-union shop or (4) under non-union conditions where a union is trying to organize a unit. Also called black leg.

Again, slowing losing it there. Getting worst by the day. There's a reason over 90% of the pilots in the industry are unionized.

Hey, did you say goodbye to DW and thank her for her service yet?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

"The first class of 4 was already full before the Gulfstream announcement. " TWA. Someone is pulling someone's leg. Either your source is telling you a LIE or my buddy that is waiting for the LR45 has been lied to. Can't have it both ways.

 

[ThePilotsFriend]

Flexjet pilots under your few page work agreement, still believe that they can't / haven't / will not change anything?

1) Confirmed, Deanna White is gone replaced with Mike Silvestro as the CEO.
a. All of the management that you have known and trusted are out. Did they not try to sale the fact that your management would remain intact to make you feel safe? Sorry for the inconvenience but we changed our mind about that.

2) Already junior Flight Options pilots are operating your biggest aircraft ahead of you with seniority protected above and beyond yours.

3) Your do not disturb or call agreement GONE.

4) Junior Flight Options pilots headed your way with the promise of Ken Ricci that they will be in the Lear for just six months and will be transitioned into the G as PIC ahead of all FlexPilots. Dedicated Flight Option crews with seniority protected above and beyond yours.

5) EMB-300 now to be marketed with the Flex store front painted in the new OneSky colors operated solely with Flight Options crews and aircraft will remain on Options certificate.

6) The entire company headquarters will be located in the Flight Options facility in Cleveland this is a fact just you wait and see. The only facility that will remain in TX will be possibly a MX base. Im sorry didn't they also lead you to believe that things would remain in TX? Sorry about your luck.

7) Vacation time now changed to PTO time. Get ready to hear this, Im sorry we are unable to approve your PTO request due to demand.

I can keep going but this is plenty for now and for all you non believers please don't take my word for it call Mike Silvestro and ask him, after all he is your new CEO.

Wake Up Flexjet Pilots.

You wander why I left? it was a question of ethics

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

"The first class of 4 was already full before the Gulfstream announcement. " TWA. Someone is pulling someone's leg. Either your source is telling you a LIE or my buddy that is waiting for the LR45 has been lied to. Can't have it both ways.

Sorry your buddy was lied to, but I had a list of 4 pilots who were coming here before the Gulfsteeam announcement.

And based on you guys "threats", no you can't get those names.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Let me make this clear. I never said nor intended for these pilots to be call scabs. So, get this on record JM. These pilots are NOT scabs.

Stop trying to twist my words. It won't work.

On the other hand, you raised the topic and name calling. Are you insinuating these guys are scabs? When you see them, how will they feel that you made reference to them as scabs. Nice.

By the way, the definition for a scab is much more encompassing to some the just related to strikes. For example:

Employee who (1) continues to work during strike action at the place of work, (2) accepts work where strike action is going on, (3) takes work in a non-union shop or (4) under non-union conditions where a union is trying to organize a unit. Also called black leg.

Again, slowing losing it there. Getting worst by the day. There's a reason over 90% of the pilots in the industry are unionized.

Hey, did you say goodbye to DW and thank her for her service yet?

Absolutely not. You are the one saying this action will follow them in their careers.

I was very suprised with the fact that over 25% of your pilots expressed interest in coming to FJ.

Now you guys are making them very aware of how you feel about their actions. They really sound like threats to me. Exactly what are your plans if we do merge and you end up flying with one of these pilots.

I will be involved in the training of most of these pilots and am looking forward to meeting them.

When I came to FJ all I really had wa 121 experience. There was a steep learning curve for me. The FO pilots coming here have already been doing the same job just in different aircraft and for a dirrerent company. I feel they will do a great job at FJ.

Posted on a different thread by one of your "brothers".

From THE US MASTER PILOT SCABLIST: THE UNIONIST'S EDITION

A SCAB is A Person Who is Doing What You'd be Doing if You Weren't on Strike.

[So by definition, the Boot-Lickers going to FJ are NOT scabs! But they sure exhibit Scab-like behavior & traits! Who else would advance their own career on the backs of a furloughed brother or sister!]

A SCAB takes your job, a Job he could not get under normal circumstances. He can only advance himself by taking advantage of labor disputes and walking over the backs of workers trying to maintain decent wages and working conditions. He helps management to destroy his and your profession, often ending up under conditions he/she wouldn't even have scabbed for. No matter. A SCAB doesn't think long term, nor does he think of anything other then himself. His smile shows fangs that drip with your blood, for he willingly destroys families, lives, careers, opportunities and professions at the drop of a hat. He takes from a striker what he knows he could never earn by his own merit: a decent Job. He steals that which others earned at the bargaining table through blood, sweat and tears, and throws it away in an instant - ruining lives, jobs and careers.

ONCE A SCAB, ALWAYS A SCAB - NEVER FORGET!

 

[slowtation capt]

I was very suprised with the fact that over 25% of your pilots expressed interest in coming to FJ.

Maybe you need to check with your source because of that 25% of pilots, maybe 10% actually want to go to Flex. The other 15% only emailed or called for more information about it. Because there were many holes and if's involved in the email that was sent out. And if anybody even emailed or called and asked a question about it, whether or not they specifically said that they were interested in GOING, not interested in information, they were put on the list and subsequently called to offer them a position. Many people that I spoke to, where surprised when they received a call offering a LR45 right seat. They told you guy that all they did was ask for more informaion, I never said that I was interesting in going, why are you calling me. He tells them because we made a list of any name that emailed, called, or spoke to anybody about anything to do with this offer.

See pilots, well the majority of pilots like to gather as much information as possible, sometimes it might be something that you really don't have much interest in doing in your career, but when something is put out with huge holes, and what if's in it, you are going to find out more about it, and open your eyes to what the reality of the offer might be, whether it's good or bad.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

TWA. Why would I threaten any of my friends? And I do know 3 of the pilots going in the first round. I just hope they aren't making a mistake.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

TWA. Why would I threaten any of my friends? And I do know 3 of the pilots going in the first round. I just hope they aren't making a mistake.

I don't think I responded to you.

This was meant for TA and LS since LS stated these fellow brothers are scabs and TA stated the same thing without using the word.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

^ TWA - actually what I wrote some months ago was: As I wrote yesterday, those pilots moving to Flex aren't scabs. But they sure exhibit some scab-like tendencies & traits.

 

[DirtyBeech]

I think they see the growth at FJ and want to be part of that.

Maybe when you see them out flying th line later this year you can ask them.

I ran into one last week, but he was trying to wrap his head around our scheduling. I'm not sure we really clarified things, but we tried.

Maybe growth is driving them. I just don't understand why an order for planes three years from now, and we all know that's an eternity in the fractional world for aircraft orders, is the impetus to make things happen. It's gonna take a long while to work through our FO's to see an upgrade.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

TWA "Not sure what you are talking about. You must be getting more bad information." Thanks TWA. Getting bad info is nothing new at this place.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

My friends in Dallas have told me that 4 did show up at Flex. So I stand corrected saying it was only 3. Good luck to JW,SM,TW, and GY.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

My friends in Dallas have told me that 4 did show up at Flex. So I stand corrected saying it was only 3. Good luck to JW,SM,TW, and GY.

Yup, you were wrong.

Make sure we get those names out so the architect can make sure they are "never treated the same way again" and we can add them to the "scab-like" list.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

^ TWA - actually what I wrote some months ago was: As I wrote yesterday, those pilots moving to Flex aren't scabs. But they sure exhibit some scab-like tendencies & traits.

If you were part of a real union you would understand that calling someone a scab that isn't is not acceptable. People these days throw the word around way to often.

A real union would make sure you didn't soften the word by applying it to situations where it doesn't fit.

I know, you don't like what these pilots are doing and that is your right, but saying they are scab-like is the same as calling them a scab.

Unless your union labels them as scabs I would maybe refrain from calling them that and maybe just say that you don't like their actions. Maybe you think using the word scab will illicit a response from them that will keep them from coming to FJ, but it doesn't appear to be working.

Grow up

 

[The Architect]

Slipping Away

Yup, you were wrong.

Make sure we get those names out so the architect can make sure they are "never treated the same way again" and we can add them to the "scab-like" list.

I was clear in my response to you.

But, you have to grasp at whatever you can when you're losing.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I was clear in my response to you.

But, you have to grasp at whatever you can when you're losing.

The scab-like comment was for LS.

You said:
"So what else? What is really going to follow them forever. Well, we know this. One day Flexjet and Flight Options will merge. No doubt. And so will those seniority lists. So, one day those who chose to go to the former Flexjet will fly among the former Flight options pilots. Not good. People simply don't forget. That's not a threat. It's reality. It's human nature. "

Saying it's not a threat doesn't make it not a threat. It's kind if like saying "I am not trying to be mean, but...." and then being a dick.

 

[The Architect]

If Your Managment

Saying it's not a threat doesn't make it not a threat. It's kind if like saying "I am not trying to be mean, but...." and then being a dick.

Maybe in your little world. Or maybe if your in management. Hell, they, and apparently you, master that technique.

Slipping away JM. It's all slipping away.

 

[shanes123]

TWA Is trying as hard as he can to hang on to his cushy position and he is willing to give up almost everything to do it. He's also willing to watch his fellow pilots lose everything so he can hold on to it. But he sees that the change is coming and KR lied just like everyone told him he would. But he still hold out hope..What he hasn't realized yet is that is position will be replaced with a FO Golden boy thats has less seniority and experience than him..But when he comes to the line FT everyone will remember how he was willing to throw everyone else under the bus for his own personal gain. Like so many other pilots at FLOPS that have tried the same thing and never got into KRs little circle of trust..You are going to have a rough life at FLOPS,FLEXJET, ONESKY or whatever KR decides to combine it at. Look at all your managers that you thought you could trust TWA there gone or the ones that are left are no longer included in the Decision making process what will you do when your world falls down all around you?

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

TWA Is trying as hard as he can to hang on to his cushy position and he is willing to give up almost everything to do it. He's also willing to watch his fellow pilots lose everything so he can hold on to it. But he sees that the change is coming and KR lied just like everyone told him he would. But he still hold out hope..What he hasn't realized yet is that is position will be replaced with a FO Golden boy thats has less seniority and experience than him..But when he comes to the line FT everyone will remember how he was willing to throw everyone else under the bus for his own personal gain. Like so many other pilots at FLOPS that have tried the same thing and never got into KRs little circle of trust..You are going to have a rough life at FLOPS,FLEXJET, ONESKY or whatever KR decides to combine it at. Look at all your managers that you thought you could trust TWA there gone or the ones that are left are no longer included in the Decision making process what will you do when your world falls down all around you?

Give me a single example. Opposing a union is not throwing everyone under the bus.

Yeah, didn't think you could.

 

[shanes123]

Why do you always ask a question and then answer it in same post? makes no sense

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Why do you always ask a question and then answer it in same post? makes no sense

Oh, I see where you are going with this.

Anyone who opposes a union in self serving and wants to screw everyone else to better himself.

That's painting with a pretty broad paintbrush.

I actually want everyone at FJ to succeed, I just don't think a union is the solution.

Sounds like you have a very narrow minded view to believe the only solution is a union and that anyone who doesn't share your view is selfish and self serving.

 

[shanes123]

Ya thats it..hope you enjoy being a regular line pilot..Enjoy your pay cut, loss of benefits, increased health care costs, and new management thats leads by fear and intimidation..Nothing new to me but its gonna be a real CULTure shock to you..Enjoy TWA

Anybody got that Number to that truck driving school we saw on TV?

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Ya thats it..hope you enjoy being a regular line pilot..Enjoy your pay cut, loss of benefits, increased health care costs, and new management thats leads by fear and intimidation..Nothing new to me but its gonna be a real CULTure shock to you..Enjoy TWA

Anybody got that Number to that truck driving school we saw on TV?

It amazes me how much ill will you wish on the FJ pilots.

It would not kill me to return to flying the line. I have done that for most of my career and it is something I still do regularly. You can't scare somebody by threatening them with something that isn't a fear of theirs.

Pay cuts, nice threat with no factual basis.

Increased health care costs, my premiums actually are going down by about 50% next year for the same level of coverage.