What Heavy jet will SWA buy?

[ATRCA]

They just start International yesterday, and already Wavey has big jet syndrome?

Why not wait and see how this goes. You guys are bangin your heads against Spirit and jetblue and it's not Omaha-Oklahoma City where profits are guaranteed.

Int'l service? Geezus. Canada and Mexico? That's cute.

 

[SWA Bubba]

SWA Bubba,

If the speed is close to the +15 KIAS range, I will get a "drag required" message to tell me to add more drag to increase my rate of descent. If I don't add the drag, then I will drop into VNAV speed as the speed continues to build as the rate of decent increases to hit the next required altitude.

Jim,

I've explained this twice already, and either you just haven't read it, or really don't understand it. When VNAV is in the 'geometric descent' mode, getting 15 knots fast WILL NOT cause it to revert to VNAV Speed. I don't know how much clearer I can make that, Jim: it DOES NOT behave as you stated when in 'geometric descent.'

It only does what you describe when in 'idle descent' mode, which is only the case in the higher altitude regimes where flap usage is inappropriate in the first place. So your slam on SWA's restriction on concurrent flap and speedbrake usage isn't even pertinent.

Speaking of which, Southwest used to allow speedbrake usage with up to 5 units of flaps out (this was before RNAV dep/arr were common). This led to generally "pushing the descent," where pilots would stay so high, and then use flaps and boards together to come screaming down on visual descents. It would shake the crap out of the aircraft. About 10 years ago, SWA made a conscious effort to change that culture. Stabilized approach criteria was expanded, and the introduction of RNAV standardized the normal arrival and departure paths. Now, every airline flies the same generalized vertical path into and out of major airports. The restriction on flaps and speedbrakes used together was added back then as well, to save on wear & tear, and give the passengers a smoother ride. Besides, if you do RNAV correctly, it is not necessary to do this: no more diving down at the last minute; you start a controlled descent earlier. Multiple artificial drag devices are not required anymore.

Again for those who don't listen: RNAV arrivals have descents planned to allow all transport category aircraft to make the published restrictions (in normal conditions), with no speedbrakes required, and at idle or above thrust. This is why we have all the "at or aboves" (and ranges of altitudes) at intermediate waypoints, to account for varying aircraft performances.

Jim--I'm not trying to slam you, but you really ought to read more about VNAV descent modes. 'Geometric descent' provides protections and performance that you obviously don't know about, and will make your job easier, and allow you to not need the speedbrakes so much. And you'll save gas--that being the whole point of VNAV in the first place.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

southwest sky gods... how should i take my coffee? what type of shaving cream should i use? should i put my left shoe on first or my right shoe? both at the same time? clip on tie or regular...?
we get it... you have an answer for everything that makes you guys seem better than the rest of us... fly on sky gods, fly on...

You should take your coffee 'black,' like a real man. You should use Barbasol with aloe, because it feels good on your skin. Left shoe first, and regular necktie, so you don't get mistaken for a nerd.

And finally, you should stop lecturing other airlines on VNAV operation and their procedures, when you clearly don't understand the intricacies of its basic operation yourself.

Anything else? Glad I could help.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

i also recall being told whats going to happen to our airline by everyone else... jim may have pointed out what he witnessed only to be told he was wrong... it just appears that you guys always need to have the last word and spin the same answers to fit your egos... god forbid someone points out what they see only to be told no, you didn't see that...

Jim was apparently pissed about Waveflyer needling him and Dan Roman about Hawaiian being bought by someone else. Some of the things he "witness and pointed out" on SWA flightdecks were clearly exaggerations ("dragging the gear for 40nm into Vegas) as part of his retaliatory slams on Southwest.

Oh yeah, and correcting inaccurate technical descriptions doesn't fall into the category of "spin," just in case you were curious.

Bubba

 

[808pilot]

i don't recall stepping into the VNAV battle discussion... not my problem...
my point is you guys have a comment for everything... the 'spin' i was talking about is the fact that you guys will take the same answer that someone else mentioned and re-type it so that you now came up with it so that you sound like the genious with the last word of the argument... its F N exhausting reading all the southwest bulls---...
i actually have to slap myself for even getting involved...

 

[808pilot]

http://davidkanigan.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/funny-pigeon-chess-board-bird-argument.jpg?w=600

 

[canyonblue]

..my point is you guys have a comment for everything....

The thread title says SWA, are you really that clueless? I swear, if the new guys on this forum are indicative of the new generation of pilots, God help us all. uke:

 

[waveflyer]

i also recall being told whats going to happen to our airline by everyone else... jim may have pointed out what he witnessed only to be told he was wrong... it just appears that you guys always need to have the last word and spin the same answers to fit your egos... god forbid someone points out what they see only to be told no, you didn't see that...

I never said he didn't see what he saw, I just said it wasn't indicative of the entire pilot group, 8000+ now to see some goofball did something strange while jumpseating
C'mon 808- jumpseating? Any given Sunday man-
You've never seen me tell anyone how Hawaiian flies- bc I wouldn't have the perspective
It was the leaps made by Jim that SWA as a whole doesn't know what we're doing bc of what he saw getting a ride. Meanwhile you don't think the thousands of hours at SWA we all have would be a bit more valid?
Maybe-
As long as we do look at ourselves and I have admitted here more than enough that we have a significant element here that hasn't embraced technology and still has a lot of pride in 'flying it like a -200'
That is changing-
Jim did say that it is always a transition to get the whole airline up to par-
And that's where we are-
Swa pilots don't act arrogant- it's just responding to the peanut gallery

Now as for me-
I'm arrogant

I don't speak for SWA pilots

And if you have followed dan roman at all, me trolling around about SWA buying HAL is good natured bantering as DR loves to insert himself into any SWA thread-

I am not naive about the realities of acquisitions- so don't take that personally

 

[dicko]

Jim,

I've explained this twice already, and either you just haven't read it, or really don't understand it. When VNAV is in the 'geometric descent' mode, getting 15 knots fast WILL NOT cause it to revert to VNAV Speed. I don't know how much clearer I can make that, Jim: it DOES NOT behave as you stated when in 'geometric descent.'

It only does what you describe when in 'idle descent' mode, which is only the case in the higher altitude regimes where flap usage is inappropriate in the first place. So your slam on SWA's restriction on concurrent flap and speedbrake usage isn't even pertinent.

Speaking of which, Southwest used to allow speedbrake usage with up to 5 units of flaps out (this was before RNAV dep/arr were common). This led to generally "pushing the descent," where pilots would stay so high, and then use flaps and boards together to come screaming down on visual descents. It would shake the crap out of the aircraft. About 10 years ago, SWA made a conscious effort to change that culture. Stabilized approach criteria was expanded, and the introduction of RNAV standardized the normal arrival and departure paths. Now, every airline flies the same generalized vertical path into and out of major airports. The restriction on flaps and speedbrakes used together was added back then as well, to save on wear & tear, and give the passengers a smoother ride. Besides, if you do RNAV correctly, it is not necessary to do this: no more diving down at the last minute; you start a controlled descent earlier. Multiple artificial drag devices are not required anymore.

Again for those who don't listen: RNAV arrivals have descents planned to allow all transport category aircraft to make the published restrictions (in normal conditions), with no speedbrakes required, and at idle or above thrust. This is why we have all the "at or aboves" (and ranges of altitudes) at intermediate waypoints, to account for varying aircraft performances.

Jim--I'm not trying to slam you, but you really ought to read more about VNAV descent modes. 'Geometric descent' provides protections and performance that you obviously don't know about, and will make your job easier, and allow you to not need the speedbrakes so much. And you'll save gas--that being the whole point of VNAV in the first place.

Bubba

Hey Bubba,

For a SWA pilot you seem to have a decent grasp of VNAV SWA does use different software in the FMS. That may be the reason behind Jim's observations.

Geometric path is the ugly sister of idle thrust descent. Does SWA use cruise descents or reinitialise ?

We were sitting at the threshold of 22 in San Antonio waiting to takeoff. The landing SWA jet turned off the runway and complained that the glide slope didn't match the PAPI. He said it must be broken ....... I had to stick my fist in my mouth.

You're going to have an interesting time in Mexico City without speed brakes and flaps. Putting the gear down at FL200 is cool

For the poster that was complaining about the MAX lacking an AOA indicator; the NG already has one. Next time you Jumpseat on a DAL 73-9, have a look in the cockpit. If it's a SWA aircraft, don't bother. It looks like somebody just stole all of the avionics.

Cheers,

D.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Hey Bubba,

For a SWA pilot you seem to have a decent grasp of VNAV

Thanks! You know, I was tempted to stop reading there, because I kinda' had the feeling the other Dicko shoe was going to drop...

Geometric path is the ugly sister of idle thrust descent. Does SWA use cruise descents or reinitialise ?

It may be the ugly sister, but she's also the more protective sister. It's the sister that knows that in the terminal area, proper exact altitude is more important that proper exact airspeed.

We were sitting at the threshold of 22 in San Antonio waiting to takeoff. The landing SWA jet turned off the runway and complained that the glide slope didn't match the PAPI. He said it must be broken ....... I had to stick my fist in my mouth.

Hey, maybe he knew it was you down there waiting, and said it on purpose; figuring that it might raise your blood pressure enough to medically retire you before you came over and was senior to him!

You're going to have an interesting time in Mexico City without speed brakes and flaps. Putting the gear down at FL200 is cool

Although I don't have any real desire to ever go to Mexico city, I can imagine. Hey, you do what you gotta' do. I once had a heavy with all four engines at idle, full speedbrakes extended, and then still had to throw out the gear at FL 280 (I'm sure Jim would be proud of me!). 'Course, that was to keep from rear-ending a tanker going 60 kts slower than briefed, and that almost never seems to be an issue in the airline world!

For the poster that was complaining about the MAX lacking an AOA indicator; the NG already has one. Next time you Jumpseat on a DAL 73-9, have a look in the cockpit. If it's a SWA aircraft, don't bother. It looks like somebody just stole all of the avionics.

Cheers,

D.

For that same poster, and the guy who complained about having to actually turn on the probe heat manually (my God!--how inhumane!), the reason the 737 NG, and presumably the 737-MAX looks so much like every other Southwest 737 is, well.... because it looks like every other Southwest 737. By having fewer differences, Southwest can have a single type rating, and every pilot can fly every model. Saves mucho money, and we get to use essentially the same procedures from plane to plane, which promotes safety. I can't imagine that Southwest wants to have different types of type ratings, just so pilots don't have to flip as many switches. And since we're Boeing's largest single 737 customer, they obviously cater to that desire somewhat.

To the rest of the industry who fly 737s and don't like how they turn out, then all I can say is, "Sorry!" You can either buy another type of aircraft, or you can buy so damn many of them, that you get more say in how they're designed. Either that, or just keep bitching at Southwest, although that seems to be the choice that has the least likelihood of changing anything. :0

Bubba

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Is that part of the culture Bubba? Dumb down the airplane to save money and forgo the inherent safety that technology could provide. A lot of us have flown round dials and mono - chrome radar and ain't skeered, but given the choice, I'd want every option available to get me home safely and get my pax safely to their destination (all the way to the proper airport and gate).

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I have to agree. The 737 is several generations behind the latest technology. Certainly turning on probe heat isn't a deal killer, but having an EICAS would be helpful. Let's say, for example, one channel of your Mach trim fails. Right now you would have to start engines, taxi all the way out to the end of the runway and press recall to find out. With EICAS as soon as the system got hydraulic pressure (or possibly sooner) you would see that the channel failed. It's not as if there is insufficient real estate to add EICAS... A whole screen is wasted on a two inch hydraulic quantity gauge. SWA or not, Boeing should bring the airplane to the current generation of technology including automatic bus switching (why do you need to move a switch to bring a generator online? When it comes up to speed why would it not simply close the generator relay and open the APU relay?) single/triple chime aural warnings would be nice too...

I agree with those who say that the Max cockpit and the Dreamliner cockpit should be very similar. If Delta can fly every airplane you've ever imagined, and if the DC9 and the 717 are the same type rating, I'd bet SWA could handle a next generation version of the next gen.

 

[waveflyer]

Thanks! You know, I was tempted to stop reading there, because I kinda' had the feeling the other Dicko shoe was going to drop...

It may be the ugly sister, but she's also the more protective sister. It's the sister that knows that in the terminal area, proper exact altitude is more important that proper exact airspeed.

Hey, maybe he knew it was you down there waiting, and said it on purpose; figuring that it might raise your blood pressure enough to medically retire you before you came over and was senior to him!

Although I don't have any real desire to ever go to Mexico city, I can imagine. Hey, you do what you gotta' do. I once had a heavy with all four engines at idle, full speedbrakes extended, and then still had to throw out the gear at FL 280 (I'm sure Jim would be proud of me!). 'Course, that was to keep from rear-ending a tanker going 60 kts slower than briefed, and that almost never seems to be an issue in the airline world!


For that same poster, and the guy who complained about having to actually turn on the probe heat manually (my God!--how inhumane!), the reason the 737 NG, and presumably the 737-MAX looks so much like every other Southwest 737 is, well.... because it looks like every other Southwest 737. By having fewer differences, Southwest can have a single type rating, and every pilot can fly every model. Saves mucho money, and we get to use essentially the same procedures from plane to plane, which promotes safety. I can't imagine that Southwest wants to have different types of type ratings, just so pilots don't have to flip as many switches. And since we're Boeing's largest single 737 customer, they obviously cater to that desire somewhat.

To the rest of the industry who fly 737s and don't like how they turn out, then all I can say is, "Sorry!" You can either buy another type of aircraft, or you can buy so damn many of them, that you get more say in how they're designed. Either that, or just keep bitching at Southwest, although that seems to be the choice that has the least likelihood of changing anything. :0

Bubba

Except for a flight school friend of mine (new check airman) was showing me around the planes at Skywest in their hangar one day on a SLC layover 3-4 years ago.

Apparently they fly all 3 versions of the crj (200/700/900) and each has it's differences on a single type-
My regional had different bids for the different sizes- but at Skywest, Every RJ pilot flies every version- just like us.

Don't quote me, but the -7/9's have push buttons and and auto ice protection while the older RJ-200's do not

Point being bubba- I get that line pilots don't get a say in these things- BUT! Like single engine taxi, we have droves of 20-something's operating sophisticated jets all over North America in ways that we don't allow in the name of the unquestionable safety card.

And I've never appreciated that.

If it saves money, that's one thing- but not embracing technology usually comes with an efficiency price tag as well.
We should remember that and try and get the head shed to remember that as well. Wasn't the excuse for the digital six pack the idea that it would be unsafe to fly -300's and the speed tape design?
Yet we figured it out- and it would have been easier if we had figured it out at the introduction of the NG instead of going through the decade of "flying it like a -200"
If we had turned on the auto throttles a long time ago- how much money could we have saved?
if we can operate -700's from different sources with marginally different set ups, and -800's, AND classics, I'm pretty sure we could handle Max's w/ an EICAS, system Synoptics, and an ice detector-
It's really not that hard

In fact, it's better

 

[waveflyer]

Well said Luv and Furloughed

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Unfortunately, the Max design is finalized and it looks as though they have opted for no redesign of the overhead panels. It has bigger screens, but the same display as the NG - still without EICAS. (Note the recall switch/light is still there)

 

[waveflyer]

And that seriously bums me out.

We will at some point have to stop being the technological laughing stock

Don't waste money on tech that won't pay for itself- but most of it does.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Glad to see you are getting closer to aero-data and getting away from the OPC. The ops agents won't like it, but the fo's job will get a little easier.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Wonder if it will be like Aerodata at JetBlue where they still have to print out the data and then re-type it right back into the CDU... or if it will automatically populate the weights and speeds?

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

At the Tranny, some of us print it off for a hard copy, but with a few key strokes, it will populate the fms. Except a few of our aircraft on the first flight of the day. You have to manually insert the data but it's a non - event compared to what I've heard about preflighting and using the OPC.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

OPC goes pretty quickly once you get used to it - but like a lot of things, it's pretty antiquated. Since they got rid of the printers in all but the 800s I really hope aerodata auto-populates.