FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[Praetorian]

FJs profit/loss was always given as a part of Bombardier and also separately.

Not sure if this information was split in the public documents.
Are you trying to convince people that FJ wasn't profitable so if there is a pilot merger that would somehow favor FO?

FJ maintained profitability even during the downturn of 2008. It was tight, but each year we made a profit.

Instead of you telling us to prove we were profitable, why don't you show some proof that we weren't.

Not trying to convince anyone of anything. Just trying to figure out why you believe Flex was profitable. Besides as I've said many times, I think we will all either sink or swim together. In other words this situation will either help or harm both pilot groups equally depending on what we ultimately decide as a combined group.

Did you see the books, or any other documents, or are just relying on what you've been told and are repeating it on here?

You mentioned in another post the you had "met goals". How do you know you met them and for that matter how do you know you didn't greatly exceed them? Are pilots able to see the raw data these bonuses are predicated on, or are you also taking senior managements' word for this as well?

See if you had a CBA it would likely contain information sharing provisions like ours does. Then your representatives would be able to do an audit and verify what the pilots were told was true. Not that management would ever lie :erm:

 

[BlueNose]

See if you had a CBA it would likely contain information sharing provisions like ours does. Then your representatives would be able to do an audit and verify what the pilots were told was true. Not that management would ever lie :erm:

Maybe their CBA could contain a revenue sharing section like the one 1108 negotiated for us at Options. How's that working out?

 

[el raton]

Can anyone prove Flex wasn't profitable?

 

[Praetorian]

Maybe their CBA could contain a revenue sharing section like the one 1108 negotiated for us at Options. How's that working out?

Hey it's what was negotiated in the depths of the recession. But at least it's audited by the union quarterly. Would you prefer the alternative, with everything else that goes along with it?

 

[Praetorian]

Can anyone prove Flex wasn't profitable?

Logic 101

The burden of proof lies with the person or persons who are making the claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid.

Example: You can't prove that space aliens don't exist, so they must be out there.

 

[BlueNose]

Hey it's what was negotiated in the depths of the recession. But at least it's audited by the union quarterly. Would you prefer the alternative, with everything else that goes along with it?

I seem to recall from the communications at the time that the low wages were necessary due to the recession, with the revenue sharing plan being a future compensator as conditions (and hence revenues) would improve with the economy. That at least was a credible argument.


We all know we'll never see a dime of revenue sharing, and that was the intent all along. It's evident that KR and co devised a numbers scheme that would never pay out, no matter how well the economy recovers. The only question remaining, was 1108 fooled, or did they see KR's intent even then, and go along to have something to help sell the contract? I've heard arguments both ways, but will give the benefit of the doubt on this one. A lot of smart people have been snookered by KR over the years (FO's original investors, Raytheon, DAC's present investors come to mind), no harm in admitting if that's what happened. Better to admit it as a cautionary tale, than to defend the program and blame it on the "depths of the recession." That contradicts what was previously said as well as everyone's common sense, don't you think?

 

[el raton]

Logic 101

The burden of proof lies with the person or persons who are making the claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove. The inability, to disprove a claim does not render that claim valid.

Example: You can't prove that space aliens don't exist, so they must be out there.

I don't see the financials, but the proof may be in my last two bonuses, the recall of our furloughed pilots (and some of yours), record sales, and no pay cuts...(and we're paid ~30% more than you). These are some indications that at a minimum there are no losses. That is also based on how lean Flex runs operations.




You're selling just fear and that's not enough to convince anyone at flex.

 

[Praetorian]

I seem to recall from the communications at the time that the low wages were necessary due to the recession, with the revenue sharing plan being a future compensator as conditions (and hence revenues) would improve with the economy. That at least was a credible argument.


We all know we'll never see a dime of revenue sharing, and that was the intent all along. It's evident that KR and co devised a numbers scheme that would never pay out, no matter how well the economy recovers. The only question remaining, was 1108 fooled, or did they see KR's intent even then, and go along to have something to help sell the contract? I've heard arguments both ways, but will give the benefit of the doubt on this one. A lot of smart people have been snookered by KR over the years (FO's original investors, Raytheon, DAC's present investors come to mind), no harm in admitting if that's what happened. Better to admit it as a cautionary tale, than to defend the program and blame it on the "depths of the recession." That contradicts what was previously said as well as everyone's common sense, don't you think?

Ok, that's an easy one. If we are looking it that way, it is a cautionary tale. I doubt the pilots will ever agree to a supplimental pay sceme, like the one in our current CBA again. I also doubt the after the recent games that have been played by senior management, "metering sales", intentionally slowing growth and refusing to recall, that the unions leadership will ever again persue a simmilar supplemental pay system.

 

[Praetorian]

I don't see the financials, but the proof may be in my last two bonuses, the recall of our furloughed pilots (and some of yours), record sales, and no pay cuts...(and we're paid ~30% more than you). These are some indications that at a minimum there are no losses. That is also based on how lean Flex runs operations.




You're selling just fear and that's not enough to convince anyone at flex.

Wow, maybe your bonuses should have been higher? But you really don't know. Do you?

Maybe if you're really good boys and girls, next year uncle Kenn will buy you a pony.

 

[el raton]

Maybe your bonuses should have been higher? But you really don't know. Do you?

Maybe if your really good boys and girls, next year uncle Kenn will buy you a pony.

Your sarcasm and insulting tone is noted. You know the teamsters are on their way out. You should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.

 

[jetwash]

Your sarcasm and insulting tone is noted. You know the teamsters are on their way out. You should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.

Look at what Ricci paid pilots before the union came on property and you should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.



Time will tell who is right.

 

[Seahawk]

Look at what Ricci paid pilots before the union came on property and you should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.



Nah, another reason why we will remain seperate, "We dont want to share in your financial and labor pain!" You have an opportunity to really grow Flight Options but you insist on keeping your union with a dead horse. Good luck with that!

 

[Praetorian]

Your sarcasm and insulting tone is noted. You know the teamsters are on their way out. You should start finding a way to cope with the changes that are coming.

Come on, it was a joke. Sorry if I offended you.

What should insult you is the people who are trying to convince you to maintain the current relationship you have with management, which after all is what makes my little quip possible.

 

[V1 Rotate]

You guys at FLOPs are so beaten up and blinded by the fact that a company, an aviation company at that, could ever be profitable and treat it's employees the way you guys wish you could be treated. I'm not saying it's been perfect, by no means. When I came here from the airlines, I couldn't believe the difference in the mentality and the way I was treated. People seemed to get along. There was a genuine concern for the company and most everyone wanted to see Flexjet succeed and prosper. And still, after all these years, I know of no one who truly wants to see this place burn down. I'm sure there are a few that feel that way and I could probably narrow it down to those few but overall it's not like that.

Only a group of beaten down employees would try to convince the employees of another company who is succeeding that their leadership are a bunch of liars. No matter how many good stories we provide, you're going to find fault. There's no pleasing you all. We just received a 10% bonus, brought back all of our furloughees and then some, but yet we're probably losing money, we were never profitable and our leadership are nothing more than a bunch of liars. Do I have that about right?

 

[el raton]

Come on, it was a joke. Sorry if I offended you.

What should insult you is the people who are trying to convince you to maintain the current relationship you have with management, which after all is what makes my little quip possible.

Sorry, my sarcasm switch is broke.

We owe it to our management because of their past performance to give them a chance. They have some collateral with us...which can be spent quickly.