FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[slowtation capt]

The union did not initiate this integration of operations. The company did.

There seems to be a misconception that the union is the driving mechanism by which the two company operations are integrating. Not true.

The IBT did not acquire Flexjet. DAC and the associated holding companies did. The IBT did not state that operations would integrate. The company did. It was part of Kenn Ricci's (DAC Pricinpal) presentation to the Flight Options employees on February 11 and Flexjet employees on February 12. It was not only spoken words, but part of the PowerPoint slides. Clearly stating:

3Q 2014 Certificate Consolidation Begins.
4Q 2014 Operations Integration.

Don't point the finger at the IBT as the party "causing" the problem with regard to the merging of the two groups. Management initiated it and knew all of the cosequences.

Ok...ok. Let's take it further. The statement that "...if we vote no to the union, we will be allowed to stay separate" is flat out wrong! The two pilot seniority list WILL merge. Union or not union. The company is going to do that no matter what! The question is whether the combined group of pilots will have representational rights under the RLA.

Option 1: The IBT negotiates a fence agreement protecting BOTH pilot groups. The IBT files for a single carrier determination. A vote for representation occurs. The IBT prevails. Both operational and seniority integration occur. The combined pilot group (each with representatives on the negotiating committee) begin to negotiate a new CBA covering the post-merger pilot group. The seniority integration occurs in a fair and equitable manner (McCaskill-Bond).

Option 2: The IBT negotiates a fence agreement protecting BOTH pilot groups. The IBT files for a single carrier determination. A vote for representation occurs. The IBT does NOT prevail. BOTH pilot groups are now "at will" employees. Neither pilot group is covered by a CBA or is able to negotiate a new CBA. Operational and seniority integration will STILL occur. Seniority integration will still occur in a fair and equitable manner(McCaskill-Bond).

So, seniority integration is going to happen. Representation or not. With representation BOTH pilot groups will have a say in how it happens. Without representation...management will decide how it happens. And if a pilot doesn't like it...well, be prepared to file suit on your own. Good luck with that concept.

Both groups have a free choice as to their individual and combined futures. The union may or may not prevail. The integration WILL occur.

Carefully gather the facts and become educated in every aspect of this event. You and your family's futures depend on it.

Your post's are spot on how it's happened and how it will happen. Keep it up

 

[wingsnthings]

I understand it as a single carrier ruling can only be petioned by the IBT or 50% +1 of the combined pilot group. Management can NOT petition for it. I don't believe that 50%+1 wants a merger of the groups, so the IBT has the power to push the issue or leave it alone.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Your post's are spot on how it's happened and how it will happen. Keep it up

But nowhere does it say merger of pilot groups.

Operations integration is dispatch, scheduling, international, marketing etc.

You are jumping to conclusions. We can have operational integration with two separate pilots groups. KR has stated this.

 

[slowtation capt]

I think you should stop calling your boss a liar. You do realize you work for DW now, right? You report to your company, who reports to JW who reports to DW.

Wrong, I work for KR - the owner.
Again, nobody has told us that DW is running the show. So how would I know she's my "boss" besides from reading it on an open forum message board on the internet.
DW was so restricted that she couldnt even send a welcome message?
My boss is my program manager


First it's:
Yammer - Management (DW) - 4/8:

"The company could not allow the crew [Flight Options] on Yammer as the union requests that the company does not message directly to their crew, but through them. I would love to be able to speak with them directly."

"Unfortunately, like I have been talking to you these past days, the union would not allow me doing that with FO crew."

Then it's:

DW has shed light into the conversations regarding Yammer and no she is not a liar. Your union put so many restrictions on how information would be given to you that it was technically not feasible. Since we couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied.

First, it's the Union wouldn't allow message directly to the FO employees, but through the Union.
Then it becomes that the Union put too many restrictions on her.

Mom lied, mom got caught, mom is trying to back track her lie in hopes that her children will give up and become distracted with something else. Maybe even move onto dad, where mom has all ready informed dad of the said lie, and to make sure dad sticks with mom's story.

We have tons of aircraft on order so we are looking at a good growth rate at FJ over the next several years.

"Boeing said that 25 orders for its state-of-the-art 787 Dreamliner had been cancelled"
"Airbus confirmed that Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways had cancelled orders for seven A350s"
"Lion Air to cancel order for five Boeing 787s"
"Boeing has suffered 45 cancellations of plane orders (all single-aisle 737s). Subtracted from the company's 280 gross orders booked across all aircraft models, this leaves net new orders at 235 "

Yes because new airplane orders are set in stone

 

[Club ORD FO]

But nowhere does it say merger of pilot groups.

Operations integration is dispatch, scheduling, international, marketing etc.

You are jumping to conclusions. We can have operational integration with two separate pilots groups. KR has stated this.

I tried to find a slide or recording of someone saying this but could not find it, although I'm under the same impression. Above all else the Flexjet pilots do not want to merge, there is more for us to lose. Options has furloughs, lower pay/benefits, older airplanes, more senior by DOH... Forget the union for a second, there is not much to gain by the average flex pilot if we merge. More so if you are an options pilots (upgrades into out cushy challengers with fancy carpet). So, it's being sold to us that a no vote to representation will mean we can stay separate. Tempting to say the least. The question is, do we believe that we would stay separate? I don't know at this point. When it gets closer to a vote a lot of questions will have to be asked and answered

 

[The Architect]

Try Again

But nowhere does it say merger of pilot groups.

Operations integration is dispatch, scheduling, international, marketing etc.

You are jumping to conclusions. We can have operational integration with two separate pilots groups. KR has stated this.

Ya, right.

C'mon. You know the truth.

Just because KR has stated something it's accurate? Wrong.

Operations integration...everything but pilots. Really?

Consolidation of the operating certificates in itself may be a trigger of integration of the two pilot groups.

Remember this from the FAQ's from Flexjet Management?

What are some of the factors that the NMB uses to determine a Single System?
Overlapping ownership, common officers and boards, combined management, combined work force, integrated operations (such as scheduling, dispatch), common labor relations, common personnel management, common marketing, common livery, common uniforms, and common operating certificates are some of the factors.

 

[wingsnthings]

Ya, right.

C'mon. You know the truth.

Just because KR has stated something it's accurate? Wrong.

Operations integration...everything but pilots. Really?

Consolidation of the operating certificates in itself may be a trigger of integration of the two pilot groups.

Remember this from the FAQ's from Flexjet Management?

What are some of the factors that the NMB uses to determine a Single System?
Overlapping ownership, common officers and boards, combined management, combined work force, integrated operations (such as scheduling, dispatch), common labor relations, common personnel management, common marketing, common livery, common uniforms, and common operating certificates are some of the factors.

I would agree that we will meet the definition of a single carrier, but the NMB isn't going to step in unless they are asked too.

 

[wingsnthings]

Wrong, I work for KR - the owner.
Again, nobody has told us that DW is running the show. So how would I know she's my "boss" besides from reading it on an open forum message board on the internet.
DW was so restricted that she couldnt even send a welcome message?
My boss is my program manager


First it's:
Yammer - Management (DW) - 4/8:

"The company could not allow the crew [Flight Options] on Yammer as the union requests that the company does not message directly to their crew, but through them. I would love to be able to speak with them directly."

"Unfortunately, like I have been talking to you these past days, the union would not allow me doing that with FO crew."

Then it's:


First, it's the Union wouldn't allow message directly to the FO employees, but through the Union.
Then it becomes that the Union put too many restrictions on her.

Mom lied, mom got caught, mom is trying to back track her lie in hopes that her children will give up and become distracted with something else. Maybe even move onto dad, where mom has all ready informed dad of the said lie, and to make sure dad sticks with mom's story.



"Boeing said that 25 orders for its state-of-the-art 787 Dreamliner had been cancelled"
"Airbus confirmed that Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways had cancelled orders for seven A350s"
"Lion Air to cancel order for five Boeing 787s"
"Boeing has suffered 45 cancellations of plane orders (all single-aisle 737s). Subtracted from the company's 280 gross orders booked across all aircraft models, this leaves net new orders at 235 "

Yes because new airplane orders are set in stone

She didn't lie. You just pulled out what you wanted and left the part out that wouldn't help your position. As for the Boeing stats....thank you for the useless info.

 

[The Architect]

This isn't Yammer. Speak freely!

I think you should stop calling your boss a liar. You do realize you work for DW now, right? You report to your company, who reports to JW who reports to DW. You seem to believe that being in a union allows you to speak to your boss in any way you like. Bet if you were sitting across from her at a table and not hiding behind a screen name your tone would be different.

I think Bombardier was actually holding FJ back. Under our current management and the financial backing DAC has given to FJ I think great things are in our future. We have tons of aircraft on order so we are looking at a good growth rate at FJ over the next several years.

Your doom and gloom really doesn't phase me since the FO pilots have no control over the FJ pilots future. You seem to have thus belief that because you have a union you have the control. That is not the case.

This isn't Yammer. Say whatever you would like.

Thank goodness for anonymity here.

Now, on the other hand. Don't go on Yammer and call DW a liar or question any other one in leadership. If you are a Flexjet pilot, you are a "at will" employee. You will probably get the Waterview One Arrival and can be fired without just cause.

Um, Yes. The union does have some control. That's the beauty of being unionized.

 

[slowtation capt]

She didn't lie. You just pulled out what you wanted and left the part out that wouldn't help your position. As for the Boeing stats....thank you for the useless info.

I didn't pull anything, cause they are blocking us from it.
I just used information from this site.
If there is more to it, then put it out there.
We have all put our Union message fully out there
Not trying to hid a thing

"Bombardier said Monday it delivered 238 aircraft in 2013"
"It received 388 orders net of cancellations"
"In all, Bombardier took 26 orders for business aircraft in the quarter and had 12 cancellations. That compares with 27 orders and 80 cancellations a year ago"

Is that better, here's some info from your divorced momma

 

[The Architect]

Oops..."we"?

Since we couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied.

"...we..."

We?

 

[CL300Pilot]

The big issue I see watching this going back and forth is that WE, Flexjet and FLOPS are one group of pilots under OneSky, yet WE are bickering like little girls. We all have our doubts and concerns, but let me ask you this. Instead of bickering and fighting, which accomplishes nothing, why not calmly and rationally try and educate each other. There is no end to the he said/ she said issue. TWA and others are correct that from our side of the fence, the Flexjet pilots stand to lose a whole lot more than our FLOPS brethern do.

One of the biggest issues the FLOPS pilots are fighting against, and it is one that still confuses me as I talk to you guys on the road, is that most of your issues began under MS. In talking to you, KR was no where in the picture during this. Also, when I talk to you on the road, I find that most of your guys that are pro union are angry and the anti union guys are not. I have a hard time personally considering something when a lot of your guys are so pro and yet miserable. I realize your contract, while there is some good in it, honestly stinks. But instead of being upset, why not place that anger into getting representatives that are going to make your lives better in this next round of contract negotiations?

I can tell you this, and I know it is not the feeling of most of the guys I have met at FLOPS. When you have one of your captains come onto one of our 300's after a Flex crew extends an olive branch, and sits it the left seat, it does no good when you have someone like that saying, "I am sure going to enjoy taking your seat."

One final thing and if someone can tell me how to put a picture on here, I will repost the infamous slide. TWA is also correct in that no where in the infamous slide does it say that KR plans to integrate the pilot groups. Based on the slide, and I have to figure it is accurate based on the conversations here from FLOPS guys, it will take your union to approach the NMB for a single carrier vote. If your group does not pursue that, then you get to work under you contract as is and we get to work with our management as we have since the inception of the company. It seems to me that so long as the 1108 does not pursue single carrier status, we get to stay one big happy separate family.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I can tell you this, and I know it is not the feeling of most of the guys I have met at FLOPS. When you have one of your captains come onto one of our 300's after a Flex crew extends an olive branch, and sits it the left seat, it does no good when you have someone like that saying, "I am sure going to enjoy taking your seat."

This was actually one of my good friends who was the CA. It happened in New Orleans. I wasn't gonna bring this up since this doesn't seem to be the attitude of the average FO pilot, but boy he sure made an impression. My friend is real quiet and super laid back. I got the call of "can you believe what this FO pilot did." Slowtation captain, was this you?

My only two experiences that haven't been positive was a FO in DAL that was very angry at me and love the F bomb. The other crew was in PDK. As we got off the plane the approached us and told me to have my FO put in 4 stripes because that us the way it is done at FO. He said we worked for you guys now and there are a lot if changes coming so we can operate like FO. I just walked away.

The reason we are afraid of the 1108 is because of the words that come from its members. I know these crews are in the minority and most of your pilots are awesome, but the VERY load vocal minority speaks for you unfortunately.

Bet you haven't run into FJ crews telling you how we can't wait to screw you over.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

"...we..."

We?

We = Flexjet

Quit trying to read things into posts.

 

[slowtation capt]

This was actually one of my good friends who was the CA. It happened in New Orleans. I wasn't gonna bring this up since this doesn't seem to be the attitude of the average FO pilot, but boy he sure made an impression. My friend is real quiet and super laid back. I got the call of "can you believe what this FO pilot did." Slowtation captain, was this you?

Yes it was me. What a joke

Are you kidding, I would never do something as idiotic as that.
Go back and look at my posts. You might not like what I say, but I have always said what is fair for you and fair for us, everyone is to maintain their seats and positions. Never have I said anything about trying to take over.

Trust me, these examples that you gave, they are the small group, They are looking stupid to you and they look stupid to us, and make us look stupid. They not only do things to harm this entire pilot group but they also do stupid stuff internately to hurt the FO group within the FO group.

 

[CL300Pilot]

nevermind...

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Picture yourself in a boat on a river
With tangerine trees and marmalade skies
Somebody calls you, you answer quite slowly
A girl with kaleidoscope eyes

Celophane flowers of yellow and green
Towering over your head
Look for the girl with the sun in her eyes
And she's gone

 

[The Architect]

This is Good

The reason we are afraid of the 1108 is because of the words that come from its members. I know these crews are in the minority and most of your pilots are awesome, but the VERY load vocal minority speaks for you unfortunately.

Bet you haven't run into FJ crews telling you how we can't wait to screw you over.

Very good points.

Those crews are the minority. And most of the Flight Options pilots are reasonable, eductated and well-spoken. Just like Flexjet pilots.

So, everyone knows that extremists exist in both pilot groups and will certainly be the ones to find everything that was done wrong post-merger. Knowing that going in, reasonable exchanges can occur with the majority that are in the middle now.

Let's try to have those type of exchanges. A single carrier determination is inevitable. And a vote for representation will happen. Everyone should spend the time to learn about the pros and cons in order to make a decision.

 

[The Architect]

We the People...

We = Flexjet

Quit trying to read things into posts.

Don't be offended. I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

If "we" = Flexjet, the sentence would read "Since Flexjet [we] couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied."

Get it. First, Flexjet didn't deny access. Senior management with oversight of both pilot groups denied access. Yammer is available to every employee in both groups except Flight Options pilots. How dumb is that? But that's another discussion. Second, it is not about "trying to read things into posts." That sentence sounds as if though management wrote it or it was simply the result of a copy and paste from some other dialog. Just seeking the origin.

See, a reasonable question with a reasonable answer.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Don't be offended. I wasn't the only one who noticed that.

If "we" = Flexjet, the sentence would read "Since Flexjet [we] couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied."

Get it. First, Flexjet didn't deny access. Senior management with oversight of both pilot groups denied access. Yammer is available to every employee in both groups except Flight Options pilots. How dumb is that? But that's another discussion. Second, it is not about "trying to read things into posts." That sentence sounds as if though management wrote it or it was simply the result of a copy and paste from some other dialog. Just seeking the origin.

See, a reasonable question with a reasonable answer.

You are correct. The union was only concerned with how management would directly communicate with FO pilots. Of course I have no idea what exact restrictions were requested. I do believe that the 1108 had no objection to allowing crew to crew communications.

I think this would be a good idea as long as the conversation would be civil. I think it would be since Yammer uses real names so you can't hide behind a screen name and make bold and untrue statements.