FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[el raton]

Unfortunately this is something that is private between the company and union, nothing public has been said or written about the preferred method. But from what I''ve heard, DOH is the preferred choice.

That basically is a staple job. Is that fair?

 

[dime line]

That basically is a staple job. Is that fair?

How is Date of Hire not the fairest way to integrate? Your company has been around since 1996, so were about the same seniority.

 

[el raton]

How is Date of Hire not the fairest way to integrate? Your company has been around since 1996, so were about the same seniority.

The majority of our pilots were hired after 2000 putting the majority of us at the bottom of the list.
Then factor in your furloughed pilots, that leaves the flex pilots being,,,,well screwed.


The only fair option would be percentage of seniority.

 

[el raton]

I'm starting to see that the FO pilots are only out for themselves. With Ricci on their side we're (flex pilots hired after 2000) are screwed union or no union.

 

[slowtation capt]

That basically is a staple job. Is that fair?

I don't have a list, I have no idea
This is just something I heard from word of mouth.
No, it's not fair, so maybe what I heard, and thought DOH would be fair is not.

DOH
Of course that us what you guys prefer, it benefits you most.

Hahahahahaha

Keep dreaming.

The only way DOH would work would be with a permanent fence that would keep the groups separate.

A more realistic plan would be a ratioed integration of active pilots. Look at where you are on your respective list in % and that is about where you end up on the new list.

Please keep telling us that you want DOH. It will make it easier to keep your union away from our company.

You bitch and bitch, well get yourself involved in what our Union is fighting to protect for both pilot groups, and do something about instead of coming off like a complete A@@hole on this site.

Apparently DOH is not the fairest way, then I am not for it. I would like everyone to maintain their respective seniorities and positions. This is something that I can guarantee that the Union is working on.

So maybe I am wrong. Atleast I can admit that DOH does not seem the fairest after learning where the seniority lists lean towards.

Do you care to admit that your allmighty DW lied to you guys yet?

Whats fair for everyone is what they are working towards, seems like DOH is not it, and maybe people are saying the wrong things.

I really don't understand you TWA, you seem like a complete d*@k, you say the Union will never be on property with Flex, etc....You want your cake and you wanna eat it too.
Get it through you head, NOBODY is trying to f*ck you from the Union. I can say from experience that I can't say that about management.
And I heard again, your schedules are being talked about. Will you like an 8/7? Will your "contract" guarantee that you keep your current schedule.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I don't have a list, I have no idea
This is just something I heard from word of mouth.
No, it's not fair, so maybe what I heard, and thought DOH would be fair is not.



You bitch and bitch, well get yourself involved in what our Union is fighting to protect for both pilot groups, and do something about instead of coming off like a complete A@@hole on this site.

Apparently DOH is not the fairest way, then I am not for it. I would like everyone to maintain their respective seniorities and positions. This is something that I can guarantee that the Union is working on.

So maybe I am wrong. Atleast I can admit that DOH does not seem the fairest after learning where the seniority lists lean towards.

Do you care to admit that your allmighty DW lied to you guys yet?

Whats fair for everyone is what they are working towards, seems like DOH is not it, and maybe people are saying the wrong things.

I really don't understand you TWA, you seem like a complete d*@k, you say the Union will never be on property with Flex, etc....You want your cake and you wanna eat it too.
Get it through you head, NOBODY is trying to f*ck you from the Union. I can say from experience that I can't say that about management.
And I heard again, your schedules are being talked about. Will you like an 8/7? Will your "contract" guarantee that you keep your current schedule.

DW has shed light into the conversations regarding Yammer and no she is not a liar. Your union put so many restrictions on how information would be given to you that it was technically not feasible. Since we couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied. Ask your union about that.

If their are changes to our schedule we do get to vote on it. I believe 8/7 is being considered to allow an increase in crew bases. Only those that choose to be based in the new bases would be subject to the new rules.

Since I don't want to move I would vote yes for that since it would benefit crew members who want new bases. Explain to me again how I am only looking out for myself.

 

[dime line]

How is Date of Hire not the fairest way to integrate? Your company has been around since 1996, so were about the same seniority.

I could be wrong, as per slowtationCapt. But I'm looking for the fairest integration

 

[Brit]

Last I checked, we don't have a union at flex. Therefore, I'm not sure we have much of a say in how anything is integrated. The cards will fall where they may. Just buy me dinner before you stick up my pooper without any KY.

 

[el raton]

I could be wrong, as per slowtationCapt. But I'm looking for the fairest integration

I understand the bottom of your active seniority list was hired 2000. We have over 110 pilots hired in and after 2006. Do you believe your pilot group will vote to intigrate these pilots via percentage of seniority knowing this? Remember, if we have a down turn, theses pilots will be furloughed in inverse order of the seniority list.

 

[BE40Driver]

If it is DOH, Flightoptions will have to redo their list to put the Travelair pilots back up to where they where hired. Only fair! More popcorn please.

 

[jetwash]

Just so the Flex pilots are a little better informed as to what happened at the Travel Air / Flight Options merger years ago.

Both pilot lists were combined using a DOH and a percentage placement in some sort of formula.

Since this was done before it set a precedence in the company so a straight DOH will probably not happen.
I suspect that a similar formula will be used so the Flex guys should not worry too much.
What I am certain of there will be pilots from both companies who will be upset after the decision is made.

 

[dime line]

If it is DOH, Flightoptions will have to redo their list to put the Travelair pilots back up to where they where hired. Only fair! More popcorn please.

Pretty much what I was thinking. I know a bunch of guys that received "New" date of hire dates after Ricci was done

 

[slowtation capt]

DW has shed light into the conversations regarding Yammer and no she is not a liar. Your union put so many restrictions on how information would be given to you that it was technically not feasible. Since we couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied. Ask your union about that.

If their are changes to our schedule we do get to vote on it. I believe 8/7 is being considered to allow an increase in crew bases. Only those that choose to be based in the new bases would be subject to the new rules.

Since I don't want to move I would vote yes for that since it would benefit crew members who want new bases. Explain to me again how I am only looking out for myself.

Man I'm sorry you can't accept facts. I can show you a stack of emails that have come directly from our upper management and KR himself. There has never been any restrictions from the Union, she is lying again.

I know your type, you got hired at TWA, thought you would be a captain by now. Livin a good life, making money, big pension and retirement. Never thought something would happen to a Legacy carrier that was all ready in a downword spiral. Then AA came in and bought up the pieces, AA unions screwed every TWA pilot out there. You then had to be slinging gear at a crappy regional airline. Then came along Flex, again you thought mother Bombardier would take care of you, big pay, big planes, big retirement. Then just like before, they sold you out, and you are hoping it won't happen again, going back to slinging gear and working like a dog for crappy pay at a crappy regional.

 

[CL-350]

I have not taken a scientific poll, but I have not talked to one person in the 300 that wants to merge and integrate with Flops. Even the most pro-union of guys that I have known for more than 15 years do not want a merger. I know the FOs don't as it could hurt their chances to upgrade. If Flops guys force the single carrier issue and then a merger, expect a decertification of IBT. The smart play would be to stay separate for now. That way Flops can keep IBT and we can keep the threat of union. If KR is as evil as you say, then you will see the 20-30% pro-union guys here jump to 50-60% and possibly a much more receptive crowd of pilots a few years down the road. But so far, all he has done to me is take away 100 of my banked sick days and give me a book. Let' see what happens before anybody makes any big drastic moves.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Yup I agree with what 350 said. Even guys who were pro union when it would have been just a flex union are not pro union in this case. And like he said the assumption is that if we vote no to the union, we will be allowed to stay separate. That would of course be good for us in a lot of ways. Maybe that's an incorrect assumption, I don't know. I'm sure those questions will be asked when it gets closer to a vote. But point is, there is not a lot of support at the moment for the 1108, even amongsts those that were pro union in the past. I'd rather see some long term fence agreements out in place and you guys can keep doing your hung and we will keep doing ours.

 

[V1 Rotate]

The best way to avoid anyone in either group from getting screwed is to not merge at all. You guys do your thing we'll do our's. As far as putting you guys on Yammer, I agree with some of the posts on there stating that we shouldn't allow FLOPs pilots on there anyway. Just like someone stated on there, when we're allowed to eaves drop on 1108 conversations then maybe you could be allowed to observe our's.

 

[jetwash]

If Flops guys force the single carrier issue and then a merger, expect a decertification of IBT. The smart play would be to stay separate for now. s.

Once again, it is not the Flight Options pilots decision. It is our common owner Kenn Ricci who wants us combined. He already stated advertising the CL300 on the Flight Options web site.

Do you honestly believe that if there was no union he would keep the operations side separate? He is going to do what he wants union or no union.

We are just beginning to see some of the changes, only he knows what is next.
It if for this reason that the Flight Options pilots want to have a seat at the table when major decisions are made, we may not be able to change them but we might be able to negotiate something to make them more palatable.

 

[The Architect]

The Company Decided to Integrate

Yup I agree with what 350 said. Even guys who were pro union when it would have been just a flex union are not pro union in this case. And like he said the assumption is that if we vote no to the union, we will be allowed to stay separate. That would of course be good for us in a lot of ways. Maybe that's an incorrect assumption, I don't know. I'm sure those questions will be asked when it gets closer to a vote. But point is, there is not a lot of support at the moment for the 1108, even amongsts those that were pro union in the past. I'd rather see some long term fence agreements out in place and you guys can keep doing your hung and we will keep doing ours.

The union did not initiate this integration of operations. The company did.

There seems to be a misconception that the union is the driving mechanism by which the two company operations are integrating. Not true.

The IBT did not acquire Flexjet. DAC and the associated holding companies did. The IBT did not state that operations would integrate. The company did. It was part of Kenn Ricci's (DAC Pricinpal) presentation to the Flight Options employees on February 11 and Flexjet employees on February 12. It was not only spoken words, but part of the PowerPoint slides. Clearly stating:

3Q 2014 Certificate Consolidation Begins.
4Q 2014 Operations Integration.

Don't point the finger at the IBT as the party "causing" the problem with regard to the merging of the two groups. Management initiated it and knew all of the cosequences.

Ok...ok. Let's take it further. The statement that "...if we vote no to the union, we will be allowed to stay separate" is flat out wrong! The two pilot seniority list WILL merge. Union or not union. The company is going to do that no matter what! The question is whether the combined group of pilots will have representational rights under the RLA.

Option 1: The IBT negotiates a fence agreement protecting BOTH pilot groups. The IBT files for a single carrier determination. A vote for representation occurs. The IBT prevails. Both operational and seniority integration occur. The combined pilot group (each with representatives on the negotiating committee) begin to negotiate a new CBA covering the post-merger pilot group. The seniority integration occurs in a fair and equitable manner (McCaskill-Bond).

Option 2: The IBT negotiates a fence agreement protecting BOTH pilot groups. The IBT files for a single carrier determination. A vote for representation occurs. The IBT does NOT prevail. BOTH pilot groups are now "at will" employees. Neither pilot group is covered by a CBA or is able to negotiate a new CBA. Operational and seniority integration will STILL occur. Seniority integration will still occur in a fair and equitable manner(McCaskill-Bond).

So, seniority integration is going to happen. Representation or not. With representation BOTH pilot groups will have a say in how it happens. Without representation...management will decide how it happens. And if a pilot doesn't like it...well, be prepared to file suit on your own. Good luck with that concept.

Both groups have a free choice as to their individual and combined futures. The union may or may not prevail. The integration WILL occur.

Carefully gather the facts and become educated in every aspect of this event. You and your family's futures depend on it.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Man I'm sorry you can't accept facts. I can show you a stack of emails that have come directly from our upper management and KR himself. There has never been any restrictions from the Union, she is lying again.

I know your type, you got hired at TWA, thought you would be a captain by now. Livin a good life, making money, big pension and retirement. Never thought something would happen to a Legacy carrier that was all ready in a downword spiral. Then AA came in and bought up the pieces, AA unions screwed every TWA pilot out there. You then had to be slinging gear at a crappy regional airline. Then came along Flex, again you thought mother Bombardier would take care of you, big pay, big planes, big retirement. Then just like before, they sold you out, and you are hoping it won't happen again, going back to slinging gear and working like a dog for crappy pay at a crappy regional.

I think you should stop calling your boss a liar. You do realize you work for DW now, right? You report to your company, who reports to JW who reports to DW. You seem to believe that being in a union allows you to speak to your boss in any way you like. Bet if you were sitting across from her at a table and not hiding behind a screen name your tone would be different.

I think Bombardier was actually holding FJ back. Under our current management and the financial backing DAC has given to FJ I think great things are in our future. We have tons of aircraft on order so we are looking at a good growth rate at FJ over the next several years.

Your doom and gloom really doesn't phase me since the FO pilots have no control over the FJ pilots future. You seem to have thus belief that because you have a union you have the control. That is not the case.

 

[Club ORD FO]

What if the union just doesn't petition the NMB for a single carrier status? We are under the impression that the company can not make this petition, and that only a single carrier ruling will lead to a merger. So I other words, the 1108 is forcing a merger by petitioning the NMB.

 

[slowtation capt]

The union did not initiate this integration of operations. The company did.

There seems to be a misconception that the union is the driving mechanism by which the two company operations are integrating. Not true.

The IBT did not acquire Flexjet. DAC and the associated holding companies did. The IBT did not state that operations would integrate. The company did. It was part of Kenn Ricci's (DAC Pricinpal) presentation to the Flight Options employees on February 11 and Flexjet employees on February 12. It was not only spoken words, but part of the PowerPoint slides. Clearly stating:

3Q 2014 Certificate Consolidation Begins.
4Q 2014 Operations Integration.

Don't point the finger at the IBT as the party "causing" the problem with regard to the merging of the two groups. Management initiated it and knew all of the cosequences.

Ok...ok. Let's take it further. The statement that "...if we vote no to the union, we will be allowed to stay separate" is flat out wrong! The two pilot seniority list WILL merge. Union or not union. The company is going to do that no matter what! The question is whether the combined group of pilots will have representational rights under the RLA.

Option 1: The IBT negotiates a fence agreement protecting BOTH pilot groups. The IBT files for a single carrier determination. A vote for representation occurs. The IBT prevails. Both operational and seniority integration occur. The combined pilot group (each with representatives on the negotiating committee) begin to negotiate a new CBA covering the post-merger pilot group. The seniority integration occurs in a fair and equitable manner (McCaskill-Bond).

Option 2: The IBT negotiates a fence agreement protecting BOTH pilot groups. The IBT files for a single carrier determination. A vote for representation occurs. The IBT does NOT prevail. BOTH pilot groups are now "at will" employees. Neither pilot group is covered by a CBA or is able to negotiate a new CBA. Operational and seniority integration will STILL occur. Seniority integration will still occur in a fair and equitable manner(McCaskill-Bond).

So, seniority integration is going to happen. Representation or not. With representation BOTH pilot groups will have a say in how it happens. Without representation...management will decide how it happens. And if a pilot doesn't like it...well, be prepared to file suit on your own. Good luck with that concept.

Both groups have a free choice as to their individual and combined futures. The union may or may not prevail. The integration WILL occur.

Carefully gather the facts and become educated in every aspect of this event. You and your family's futures depend on it.

Your post's are spot on how it's happened and how it will happen. Keep it up

 

[wingsnthings]

I understand it as a single carrier ruling can only be petioned by the IBT or 50% +1 of the combined pilot group. Management can NOT petition for it. I don't believe that 50%+1 wants a merger of the groups, so the IBT has the power to push the issue or leave it alone.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Your post's are spot on how it's happened and how it will happen. Keep it up

But nowhere does it say merger of pilot groups.

Operations integration is dispatch, scheduling, international, marketing etc.

You are jumping to conclusions. We can have operational integration with two separate pilots groups. KR has stated this.

 

[slowtation capt]

I think you should stop calling your boss a liar. You do realize you work for DW now, right? You report to your company, who reports to JW who reports to DW.

Wrong, I work for KR - the owner.
Again, nobody has told us that DW is running the show. So how would I know she's my "boss" besides from reading it on an open forum message board on the internet.
DW was so restricted that she couldnt even send a welcome message?
My boss is my program manager


First it's:
Yammer - Management (DW) - 4/8:

"The company could not allow the crew [Flight Options] on Yammer as the union requests that the company does not message directly to their crew, but through them. I would love to be able to speak with them directly."

"Unfortunately, like I have been talking to you these past days, the union would not allow me doing that with FO crew."

Then it's:

DW has shed light into the conversations regarding Yammer and no she is not a liar. Your union put so many restrictions on how information would be given to you that it was technically not feasible. Since we couldn't abide by restrictions on how information had to pass through the union first the access was denied.

First, it's the Union wouldn't allow message directly to the FO employees, but through the Union.
Then it becomes that the Union put too many restrictions on her.

Mom lied, mom got caught, mom is trying to back track her lie in hopes that her children will give up and become distracted with something else. Maybe even move onto dad, where mom has all ready informed dad of the said lie, and to make sure dad sticks with mom's story.

We have tons of aircraft on order so we are looking at a good growth rate at FJ over the next several years.

"Boeing said that 25 orders for its state-of-the-art 787 Dreamliner had been cancelled"
"Airbus confirmed that Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways had cancelled orders for seven A350s"
"Lion Air to cancel order for five Boeing 787s"
"Boeing has suffered 45 cancellations of plane orders (all single-aisle 737s). Subtracted from the company's 280 gross orders booked across all aircraft models, this leaves net new orders at 235 "

Yes because new airplane orders are set in stone

 

[Club ORD FO]

But nowhere does it say merger of pilot groups.

Operations integration is dispatch, scheduling, international, marketing etc.

You are jumping to conclusions. We can have operational integration with two separate pilots groups. KR has stated this.

I tried to find a slide or recording of someone saying this but could not find it, although I'm under the same impression. Above all else the Flexjet pilots do not want to merge, there is more for us to lose. Options has furloughs, lower pay/benefits, older airplanes, more senior by DOH... Forget the union for a second, there is not much to gain by the average flex pilot if we merge. More so if you are an options pilots (upgrades into out cushy challengers with fancy carpet). So, it's being sold to us that a no vote to representation will mean we can stay separate. Tempting to say the least. The question is, do we believe that we would stay separate? I don't know at this point. When it gets closer to a vote a lot of questions will have to be asked and answered

 

[The Architect]

Try Again

But nowhere does it say merger of pilot groups.

Operations integration is dispatch, scheduling, international, marketing etc.

You are jumping to conclusions. We can have operational integration with two separate pilots groups. KR has stated this.

Ya, right.

C'mon. You know the truth.

Just because KR has stated something it's accurate? Wrong.

Operations integration...everything but pilots. Really?

Consolidation of the operating certificates in itself may be a trigger of integration of the two pilot groups.

Remember this from the FAQ's from Flexjet Management?

What are some of the factors that the NMB uses to determine a Single System?
Overlapping ownership, common officers and boards, combined management, combined work force, integrated operations (such as scheduling, dispatch), common labor relations, common personnel management, common marketing, common livery, common uniforms, and common operating certificates are some of the factors.

 

[wingsnthings]

Ya, right.

C'mon. You know the truth.

Just because KR has stated something it's accurate? Wrong.

Operations integration...everything but pilots. Really?

Consolidation of the operating certificates in itself may be a trigger of integration of the two pilot groups.

Remember this from the FAQ's from Flexjet Management?

What are some of the factors that the NMB uses to determine a Single System?
Overlapping ownership, common officers and boards, combined management, combined work force, integrated operations (such as scheduling, dispatch), common labor relations, common personnel management, common marketing, common livery, common uniforms, and common operating certificates are some of the factors.

I would agree that we will meet the definition of a single carrier, but the NMB isn't going to step in unless they are asked too.

 

[wingsnthings]

Wrong, I work for KR - the owner.
Again, nobody has told us that DW is running the show. So how would I know she's my "boss" besides from reading it on an open forum message board on the internet.
DW was so restricted that she couldnt even send a welcome message?
My boss is my program manager


First it's:
Yammer - Management (DW) - 4/8:

"The company could not allow the crew [Flight Options] on Yammer as the union requests that the company does not message directly to their crew, but through them. I would love to be able to speak with them directly."

"Unfortunately, like I have been talking to you these past days, the union would not allow me doing that with FO crew."

Then it's:


First, it's the Union wouldn't allow message directly to the FO employees, but through the Union.
Then it becomes that the Union put too many restrictions on her.

Mom lied, mom got caught, mom is trying to back track her lie in hopes that her children will give up and become distracted with something else. Maybe even move onto dad, where mom has all ready informed dad of the said lie, and to make sure dad sticks with mom's story.



"Boeing said that 25 orders for its state-of-the-art 787 Dreamliner had been cancelled"
"Airbus confirmed that Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways had cancelled orders for seven A350s"
"Lion Air to cancel order for five Boeing 787s"
"Boeing has suffered 45 cancellations of plane orders (all single-aisle 737s). Subtracted from the company's 280 gross orders booked across all aircraft models, this leaves net new orders at 235 "

Yes because new airplane orders are set in stone

She didn't lie. You just pulled out what you wanted and left the part out that wouldn't help your position. As for the Boeing stats....thank you for the useless info.

 

[The Architect]

This isn't Yammer. Speak freely!

I think you should stop calling your boss a liar. You do realize you work for DW now, right? You report to your company, who reports to JW who reports to DW. You seem to believe that being in a union allows you to speak to your boss in any way you like. Bet if you were sitting across from her at a table and not hiding behind a screen name your tone would be different.

I think Bombardier was actually holding FJ back. Under our current management and the financial backing DAC has given to FJ I think great things are in our future. We have tons of aircraft on order so we are looking at a good growth rate at FJ over the next several years.

Your doom and gloom really doesn't phase me since the FO pilots have no control over the FJ pilots future. You seem to have thus belief that because you have a union you have the control. That is not the case.

This isn't Yammer. Say whatever you would like.

Thank goodness for anonymity here.

Now, on the other hand. Don't go on Yammer and call DW a liar or question any other one in leadership. If you are a Flexjet pilot, you are a "at will" employee. You will probably get the Waterview One Arrival and can be fired without just cause.

Um, Yes. The union does have some control. That's the beauty of being unionized.

 

[slowtation capt]

She didn't lie. You just pulled out what you wanted and left the part out that wouldn't help your position. As for the Boeing stats....thank you for the useless info.

I didn't pull anything, cause they are blocking us from it.
I just used information from this site.
If there is more to it, then put it out there.
We have all put our Union message fully out there
Not trying to hid a thing

"Bombardier said Monday it delivered 238 aircraft in 2013"
"It received 388 orders net of cancellations"
"In all, Bombardier took 26 orders for business aircraft in the quarter and had 12 cancellations. That compares with 27 orders and 80 cancellations a year ago"

Is that better, here's some info from your divorced momma